How large is the BioMass market and are any of you selling into it?

[LOGDOG]

I was recently watching some YouTube videos of several forwarder type machines that were designed to gather, bunch and bale biomass (tree limbs, foliage, tops,etc) into bales for the purpose of selling as biomass fuel ( I guess for large boilers?). It made me wonder how large the market was and if any of our members were selling into it. If the market was there it seems like a great idea. There's certainly a large amount of material left over after most logging jobs to supply the demand.

Curious what you're seeing out there.....

[mtngun]

Non-logger here, speaking as an observer..... using logging slash, tops, or otherwise useless wood to generate power seems to be common in Europe, rare in the U.S..   Doesn't seem to be worthwhile in the US unless there are subsidies.   

In fairness, other energy sources like nuclear, hydro, solar, etc., often get direct or indirect subsidies.

[Black_Bear]

Northern New England has a fairly strong biomass market. It's a little soft right now, but many loggers sell chips as a low grade product. Google Burlington Electric Department and read about their biomass program - it's been around since the 80s.

[Ron Wenrich]

I don't see much of it in PA.  There is talk of one in town that is going to use a wood gas method, but I didn't see where they were talking about getting chips.  I also didn't hear too much excitement about it within the logging community.  Natural gas is pretty cheap right now, and will blow most biomass projects away.

There are several reasons for not using tops/slash for biomass.  One is from a nutrient level.  Most of the nutrients left behind comes from the fines in the slash.  Taking them off site for one harvest doesn't seem to be too bad.  Its when you do it on a repetitive basis that the jury is still out.  Some foresters think it will lead to nutrient deficiency in future forests.

The other factor is to protect young seedlings from browsing.  Its not important in all areas, but is one thing that can't be overlooked in others.

[jdtuttle]

Check on some of the larger corporate facilities. Lockheed Martin in Owego NY installed one when they built a building for the Presidential Helicopter.
jim

[John Mc]

In addition to Burlington Electric mentioned earlier, Vermont has a number of school systems who have converted to wood chip boilers for heat, getting away from fuel oil. The ones who are doing it right (IMO) are trying to source as locally as possible. This supports their local economy, as well as reducing transportation costs (and reducing the use of fossil fuels in transporting chips). For a time, the state had a subsidy for school systems to make this conversion. I don't know if that subsidy still exists or not.

Middlebury College in Vermont also installed a wood chip boiler. I heard they went through a fairly involved process of creating a detailed specification of how their wood chips would be harvested to assure that it was being done sustainably. I've also heard they then ignored those specs and just bought from the cheapest supplier who could supply the type of chip they need. (I'm sure that last part gets left out when they are touting how green they are to their alums during fund-raising time.)

[Ron Scott]

It's being talked about a lot, but not much really happening other than chips being sold to the cogen plants. Chip prices are so low that loggers aren't interested in producing much other than those that have special contracts with the cogen plants. We haven't sold any harvest chips since last winter and then it was sporadic with prices up and down, mostly down.

[Sparty]

Here is one example of how it is done here in SE michigan.  The city public works forestry department puts all of the wood waste (dead ash, limbs that fell in the road, etc.) into a roll off trash bin and the energy company collects it.  The city doesn't get paid for it, but they don't have to pay for the waste to go to a landfill either.  So...it looks like a "green" option but I don't think anybody is cashing in on the wood waste.  Well....maybe the energy company....

I used to get logs from them in the past but now it is easier for them to toss the logs in the dumpster and be done with it.

[Randy88]

A cogen facility is in the process of going online and they contacted me and for what they wanted to pay it didn't even pay the trucking let alone anything else, as far as I can tell someone's getting government dollars to protray the image of going green but thats about it, don't know if the cellulosic ethanol thing will ever make it or not but thats looking more promising for utalizing wood chips than cogen or as a heat source in my area anyhow, other areas are making it work and doing good, all the facilities I toured and looked at the first thing they all bragged about was the amount of money they were saving over other heat sources, but apparently its not hit it big in my area as of yet, if it ever will.   

[StephenRice]

An acquaintance (really a friend of a friend) has a company that has been awarded large grants from the government and will soon be building a large cellulosic biomass plant in NE Mississippi (in Fulton, east of Tupelo) to produce ethanol.  They will be using landfill waste, but will likely also take in all of the wood chips they can as well.  The company is Blue Fire Renewables, previously known as Blue Fire Ethanol.  They are on the internet and are publicly traded.

[LOGDOG]

Stephen are they connected to Rentech at all NYSE symbol RTK? They make diesel and jet fuel from garbage and I'm thinking they have a plant in Mississippi.

[StephenRice]

Not as far as I know, LOGDOG.  Here is a link to a video of CNN interviewing Arnie about their process.  It also seems that the Fulton, MS plant will be built next to a rail head to ship in slash and tree waste from all over.  Anyways, here is a link to the video:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/.element/apps/cvp/3.0/swf/cnn_416x234_embed.swf?context=embed_edition&videoId=tech/2010/07/21/velshi.trash.fuel.cnn

[SwampDonkey]

A link to the flash or youtube video would work, but not HTML code.

Around here there is only a steady supply from crown lands for those electric plants and mill power generation. I'm not sure it has taken off yet. The mill power generation has been here for years. But to take it off crown as tops and brush, I think the only winners in that is the equipment sellers. You pretty much have to operate on clearcuts for the volumes and be selling wood to help supplement the costs. You can't go gather this up after the logging is done unless it was treelength slash at roadside. I see piles of it roadside that was left for over a year now and still not taken, so my guess is the economics isn't there. There is only one fellow chipping off private for the power plant in Fort Fairfield ,Maine and he's small potatoes. Most of the chips going there comes from one fellow operating on crown lands, but he's taking more than just tops, I believe he's chewing up overmature fir and white birch that is ready to fall down. One mill sends hog fuel to the heating plant for the Hospital and colleges in Fredericton, NB which is supplemented by diesel. The same mill sells ashes for farm fertilizer. But, can't use that ash here on potato ground, causes scab.

Back in the 1980's chipping 1000's of acres hardwood off crown lands was a big operation. They were designing those forwarding systems back then and the big old Koerings could bring the whole tree out, it was debarked and chipped roadside. That went on for a while until everyone went broke.  That was after the mills decided to lay off a bunch and make them contractors and then finance the equipment. :

[Ron Wenrich]

The economics don't work.  That's the problem.   You need about 10,000 tons/kW on an annual basis.  To get the economics in line, you need to have a customer for the process steam.  Without either one of these legs, biomass does not do well.

With the price that is being paid for pellet stock and mulch material, its hard to imagine that biomass can bring in the economics.  Some of these programs are written with some unrealistic numbers on the biomass side, both in price and available quantity. 

[Ianab]

Agreed Ron

One setup that does seem to be working is a big sawmill near Napier, NZ. They use all the sawmill waste, bark, sawdust, slabs, as boiler fuel. Have a generating capacity of about 30Mw, and the process steam is then used to run the drying kilns. Excess power over what the mill uses is sold back to the National grid.

But it works because the fuel is there onsite, and the excess steam is useful. All the planets are aligned as it were.

Running a standalone bio-fuel plant, I can't see how it can work economically, until natural gas etc gets REALLY expensive.

Ian

[StephenRice]

Ron and Ianab,

Where are you guys getting your figures from?  Do you think that all processes are equal in terms of input requirements and output production?  How much easier is it to collect and transport a ton of corn or sugar cane or other input biomass in comparison to a ton of waste from slash and logging ot other similar operations?  Did either of you watch the video that I posted a link to?

[Ianab]

http://www.eeca.govt.nz/sites/all/files/waipa-cogen-case-study-july-2007.pdf

This setup works because they generate power and steam from the mill waste, and sell excess power.  There are several threads on the forum about the cost of getting serious 3 phase power to a sawmill site. Especially when you start talking about 100kw  of power. But when you are able to generate megawatts, the sums all change.

Ian

[StephenRice]

You are talking two different industries here.  One is electricity generation from biomass.  The other is biofuel production from biomass.  Yet, you seem to lump the two together and say it is uneconomical. A number of international companies and organizations seem to disagree with your opinions as to its profitability.

[beenthere]

Ron and Ianab,

Where are you guys getting your figures from?  Do you think that all processes are equal in terms of input requirements and output production?  How much easier is it to collect and transport a ton of corn or sugar cane or other input biomass in comparison to a ton of waste from slash and logging ot other similar operations?  Did either of you watch the video that I posted a link to?

The old ton of coal or ton of feathers ? 
Maybe the volume of each is a key when talking collecting and transporting? eh?
Downtown Madison is putting in a biomass power plant, to replace coal. About $40 million. The number of rail cars in and out of Madison will go up by 7 times.   And there isn't a biomass supply anywhere near Madison to make up 1% of that volume. We are getting the snowjob with easy talk of available biomass supply for whatever conversion to electric or fuel.

[Ron Wenrich]

Well, Stephen, I actually helped to site a 21 MW power plant.  I went through the negotiations for biomass when it was cheap.  I also did the resource study to make sure there was adequate material for such a plant.  It came into being because we had a source to use the process steam.  Its still running.

The only demand for ethanol is as an octane booster or fuel extender in gasoline.  Guess who foots that bill?  50¢/gal subsidy from the government.  Even with the subsidy, there are ethanol plants in the Midwest that have been abandoned.  When oil was at $140/bbl, it was economical.  Oil is now around $75/bbl.  The economics went out a long time ago.

When the subsidy is gone, so is the market.  When you look at the economics, all those plants are using grant money.  I wonder how many would get built without the grant money.

[Norm]

The blenders credit is given to the oil companies as an incentive to use ethanol blends. It is expiring at the end of this year and hopefully will not be extended. The reason the ethanol companies went belly up was poor hedging when corn prices went up in 08. Almost all of those have been bought up except for the ones with too much baggage. Most were bought up by existing ethanol producers or companies with oil majors as backers.

[timbuck2]

Non-logger here, speaking as an observer..... using logging slash, tops, or otherwise useless wood to generate power seems to be common in Europe, rare in the U.S..   Doesn't seem to be worthwhile in the US unless there are subsidies.   

In fairness, other energy sources like nuclear, hydro, solar, etc., often get direct or indirect subsidies.

[Alive and well here in Northern New England, however buyers rule, beware.   /quote]

[Ron Wenrich]

Current ethanol prices are $2/gal.  Current unleaded gasoline prices are $1.90/gal.  Without the 50¢ subsidy, where would the incentive come from to put ethanol into gasoline?

[Norm]

The bottom line, if the ethanol producers can't compete by now than so be it.

[StephenRice]

That is the attitude that keeps the U.S. dependent upon dwindling foreign oil reserves and keeps us in wars in the middle east while other countries such as Brazil have been completely energy independent for quite some time.  If you were to figure in the indirect costs of our energy dependence, then you would see that the biofuels and other forms of alternative energy produced at home are indeed good deals.