What are the pine species in Montana?

[Okrafarmer]

I have "retired" friend who moved here from Montana a while back. For whatever reason, he brought with him a bunch of pine rough cut lumber when he moved, thinking to use it to build a corral with, and he never did. He's interested in having me sell it for him on commission. So I'm trying to determine what species of pine it is. He called it Jack Pine, but looking at Jack Pine's natural range, it skirts well away from Montana. I plan to go look at it shortly, and when possible will post a photo. Not that this will help much. I will also find out what town or county it came from.

[beenthere]

Young ponderosa pine can be nicknamed 'jack' pine. Also it could be lodgepole pine. Likely one of those two. The lodgepole will be the better of the two, IMO.
The name 'jack' pine seems to apply to a particular local pine, somewhat oblivious to the true jack pine tree. But it is one of those local things that happens.

How much pine lumber do you have?

[mesquite buckeye]

I think that is right. The lodgepole will have kind of zigzagy branches, usually. It is one of the hard pines. Ponderosa can grow bigger and usually the wood is softer and weaker also. Lots of it get used for millwork if it is clear enough.

[hardtailjohn]

Jackpine is a slang for younger lodgepole pine. Some never differentiate as it grows.

[giant splinter]

A little farther west in Washington we call it "Jackpole" pine but the ponderosa is more in demand for construction lumber.
The lodgepole pine is great for fencing and flag poles with its long slow taper and it works good for small projects like window sill planters and yard furniture, its sometimes even nicer with a few worm holes, beetle grooves and the blue stain on live edge picnic tables ect.

[SwampDonkey]

I was gonna say lodgepole as well. The two species (jack pine) overlap in Alberta. It's the most prominent pine in BC. The beetles seem to like it. ;D

[reride82]

I agree on Lodgepole. I thought it was called that since it was used alot in Jack-Leg fences. But, I have been wrong in the past.  :D

[SwampDonkey]

Okra look them boards over well, you might find some dimple figure for a premium. ;D

[Okrafarmer]

I wasn't able to get a real good picture. But here it is nonetheless.


 

There is more than you see in the picture, and a few pieces in the picture are not from the same batch of wood, but are more modern (or at least other) lumber. The bulk of what you see there, though, was milled by a farmer/rancher/logger in Rosebud County in eastern Montana. He has long since passed away. His daughter says she doesn't think he operated the sawmill after she was married (1970). Some of the lumber was actually used on a barn and weathered some, but the majority of it was never used.

Obviously, it is a species we don't have here, there is a history to go with it, and it is nice and dry and "antique" or at least "classic" lumber.

I have no idea how to price it, I'm to sell it for a commission, and I hardly know where to begin for pricing. There is a pretty good market for rustic and distressed lumber in these parts, so I'll be marketing it for all we can reasonably get for it.

The gentleman (it is his wife's father who milled it) says he still doesn't know the species but after doing a little preliminary research he thinks it may be lodgepole or scotch pine, or possibly ponderosa. He showed me an old b+w picture of his father-in-law skidding a sizabe log on a sled with horses. The log was at least 3' diameter and possibly a little more. It did not seem to have the characteristic large bark plates of ponderosa, but I was seeing it mainly from the end with the side only showing at an angle. Not to mention it is possible there was more than one species he milled. But the county-- Rosebud-- may be a clue.

[Okrafarmer]

And upon looking up Scotch or Scots pine, it should be obvious that it is not the species either.  :D  :D  :D

[mesquite buckeye]

Awful big for lodgepole. Ponderosa more likely.

[beenthere]

Looking at the tree species listed for Rosebud County, found this list. Implies it includes all species.
Rosebud is in SE Montana, so may not be high enough for pine country.


 

[Okrafarmer]

After looking at where Rosebud County is, and the distribution maps for the two pines, it looks like lodgepole is a slight possibility, but Ponderosa is more likely, geographically speaking. I'm not sure if the log on the sled was a typical day's work, or the biggest log he ever hauled, but statistically we are leaning toward ponderosa. Rosebud is a fairly sizable county, and the distribution map of Ponderosa seems to include part of it.

Did you ever wonder what the words to the Bonanza theme music are? Well, they are not these, but these are what we came up with in my house, as a kid (watching reruns).

"Come on down to the jolly old Ponderosa, with--
Adam and Pa and Hoss and Little Joe.
Come on down to the jolly old Ponderosa, with--
Adam and Pa and Hoss and Little Joe!
Little Joe, Little Joe, especially little Joe--
We all know that he's the only reason--
That thirty million women watch this show!"

[Okrafarmer]

As far as whether there actually are pines there, you needn't worry, there are. He showed me a more recent color picture of the ridge where most all the logs were cut, and it still is sparsely populated with conifers. I've known this gentleman and his wife for several years and they are great folks, college educated (they actually taught special ed for quite a while) and have a great reputation in my church. They may not have paid much attention to what species they had there at the time (concentrating on horses, cattle, and such), but the lumber is definitely softwood and looks to be pine. 

[SwampDonkey]

Whatever pine it is, it sure looks flat and straight. That in itself must be worth something.

[Okrafarmer]

Yes, it looks to be fairly good quality.

[mesquite buckeye]

Any Douglas fir that far east?

[giant splinter]

The ponderosa pine is the state tree as i recall. Must be some of the firs down there in south-west Montana, the north-western section of Montana has a bunch of fir and fir is in abundance on highway 90 at the higher elevations  I have observed white and red fir in Libby and Noxon Montana but never any douglas fir. I don't think there are any Douglas fir in Montana as they are few and far between in the north-western Idaho panhandle and may not get any farther east.

[RynSmith]

I'm with Mesquite, 3-foot lodgepoles are few and far between, they're not a very long lived species.  Definitely out of Doug-fir's native range, don't know how they would fare there if planted.  +1 for ponderosa.

[SwampDonkey]

Depends on where the lodgepole are growing as to age. This age ranges from 200 to 600 years old if the beetles don't get to it. Seems pretty old to me. I've seen them so old and hard that an axe just bounces off them. And 40 years of logging makes a heck of a lot of difference on tree ages or occurrences of old ones. A lodgepole can grow up to 7 feet in diameter and 150 feet tall. And if your looking at an old photo, size depends on perspective and scale.

[reride82]

The biggest lodgepole I have cut was 29" at the base, approximately 125' tall, and 120+ years old. The beetles got it about 6 years before I cut it. It was pretty awesome watching that tree come down. My guess for a tree that size would be Ponderosa. I have some 30"-42" Ponderosa logs that I need to get milled up still, but the Belsaw won't handle them so I have started on my slabber  ;)

[hardtailjohn]

Yep, lodgepole can grow big...just depends on where and how much water.  We hauled alot of it that was 2-3' on the butt...and a quite a few that didn't have a limb for the first 75'. 
Like I said, the slang around our part of the state is "jackpine" for Lodgepole, and yellow pine, or bull pine (depending on the "limbiness") for Ponderosa. 
I heard the same reason as you did Reride, for the "jackpine" name.
We also have Douglas Fir here as well...not uncommon at all, along with white fir.

[SwampDonkey]

Could go either way as to species. It's a futile argument if the guy on the other end doesn't know and all we have access to is fuzzy photos and some second hand knowledge and old memories. ;)