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Ash, Elm or Something Else?

Started by CabinCreations, July 09, 2019, 07:52:23 PM

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CabinCreations

Hello all, 

We had a dead tree come down in a storm this past weekend and I am not sure what it is. From a distance I actually thought it was a walnut as it is surrounded by young healthy walnuts and has some similar characteristics, but as I got closer it obviously is not that. My second guess as I was bucking it for firewood was maybe elm or ash but I have no experience with these woods. I am hoping this is an easy one for you experts! Here are some pictures of the bark and since it was already dead I have never seen the leaves. 





Thank you all in advance for any insight!
-Kody
2011 LT35HD

WDH

Need a real close-up pic of the end grain.  Bark looks like red oak.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

CabinCreations

Maybe I am way off!  :D Here is a picture of the end grain and a piece I split with an axe real quick. If these aren't clear enough I can try to make a fresh cut tomorrow to show the end grain better. Thanks!




2011 LT35HD

Old Greenhorn

It surly doens't look like ash at all. Nor red oak. The long swaying grain is weird to me. White oak, might be an option, but I don't think it's that either/ Elm would be my best guess and I have no confidence in that. But it's not white ash.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

olcowhand

I'm betting it's Elm, based on the Bark appearance and the way the bark looks to be separating after it's been dead a while.
Olcowhand's Workshop, LLC

They say the mind is the first to go; I'm glad it's something I don't use!

Ezekiel 36:26-27

WDH

Definitely not oak.  I believe it is elm or hickory.  I cannot see the wavy bands of latewood pores that would indicate elm, but that does not mean that they are not  there.  I agree with OCH that it is likely elm.  One way to check is to look at the end grain very closely, a magnifying glass will help, and if elm, the latewood will have the pores arranged in distinct wavy bands like this:

American elm
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

CabinCreations

Thank you all for your input - You have me leaning towards elm, but I will take a closer look tonight at the end grain to see if I can identify the wavy bands of pores as WDH suggests. 

It seems to be extremely difficult to split with an axe, which I have heard to be a characteristic of elm as well. 

@Old Greenhorn - For my future reference, what is the give away that it is not ash? 

Thanks again!
2011 LT35HD

Old Greenhorn

Well of course I defer to the smarter folks here, but for me I don't see the straight grain that ash has, the color changes thru the log are no consistent with ash, but mostly it's the grain pattern. Ash is straight unless it has no choice, like a branch or split during growth, etc. If you look at the finished benches in my gallery they are all ash except one maple, the grain is always straight.
Tom Lindtveit, Woodsman Forest Products
Oscar 328 Band Mill, Husky 350, 450, 562, & 372 (Clone), Mule 3010, and too many hand tools. :) Retired and trying to make a living to stay that way. NYLT Certified.
OK, maybe I'm the woodcutter now.
I work with wood, There is a rumor I might be a woodworker.

CabinCreations

Thanks for that - I'll keep it in mind. Beautiful benches, by the way!  
2011 LT35HD

olcowhand

Quote from: CabinCreations on July 10, 2019, 11:42:33 AM
Thank you all for your input - You have me leaning towards elm, but I will take a closer look tonight at the end grain to see if I can identify the wavy bands of pores as WDH suggests.

It seems to be extremely difficult to split with an axe, which I have heard to be a characteristic of elm as well.

@Old Greenhorn - For my future reference, what is the give away that it is not ash?

Thanks again!
That pretty much seals the deal: ...."It seems to be extremely difficult to split with an axe.....". Elm splits hard when compared with anything, but most Red Oak and especially Ash are quite easy to split by hand. I have videos of my then 7 year old daughter splitting Ash with a small 4 1/2 lb maul....
Steve


BTW, Danny- The fact that we both are leaning the same way on this pleases me greatly; but it should scare you half to death!
Olcowhand's Workshop, LLC

They say the mind is the first to go; I'm glad it's something I don't use!

Ezekiel 36:26-27

Magicman

Neither Elm, Hickory, nor Sweetgum splits easily.  :-\
Knothole Sawmill, LLC     '98 Wood-Mizer LT40SuperHydraulic   WM Million BF Club Member   WM Pro Sawyer Network

It's Weird being the Same Age as Old People

Never allow your "need" to make money to exceed your "desire" to provide quality service.....The Magicman

CabinCreations

It seems like I have an Elm on my hands! Thanks for all your input guys -  maybe I should invest in a splitter?  :D

Question 2: Is elm worth milling at all? I have one good 14" x 8' log that I have not bucked for firewood yet and a crotch piece where it bifurcated about 6' from the ground. 
2011 LT35HD

doc henderson

Elm is a very beautiful and interesting hard wood.  Not popular since it is not a commercial species.  It actually has BTUs per cord in the same density of oak ect., but the lore is that is takes longer to season and it creates more ash. 



 



 

I would mill/saw the straighter logs and then split the cants or make benches.  yes you will want a hydraulic spliter unless you are a gluten.
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

olcowhand

Quote from: doc henderson on July 12, 2019, 03:23:21 PM
Elm is a very beautiful and interesting hard wood.  Not popular since it is not a commercial species.  It actually has BTUs per cord in the same density of oak ect., but the lore is that is takes longer to season and it creates more ash.



 



 

I would mill/saw the straighter logs and then split the cants or make benches.  yes you will want a hydraulic spliter unless you are a gluten.
...What Doc said. Elm burns hot, requires quite a good amount of drying time, and produces more ash for the BTUs you're getting- but I certainly don't mind burning it when available.
Olcowhand's Workshop, LLC

They say the mind is the first to go; I'm glad it's something I don't use!

Ezekiel 36:26-27

CabinCreations

Great info, Doc and OCH!

I'll get the branches and crooked pieces split and stacked somewhere for future use.

Is there a name for the small "knots" throughout the elm? I noticed it in the few pieces I did split and see it in Doc's photos too.
2011 LT35HD

doc henderson

yes... :D :D :D
Oh you also want to know the name?  @WDH 
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

doc henderson

Sawmills and Milling / Re: Whatcha Sawin' 2019 ???
« on: June 10, 2019, 10:19:28 PM »



per WDH 
Re: Whatcha Sawin' 2019 ???
« Reply #782 on: June 10, 2019, 10:54:21 PM »


I believe what you are seeing in the elm are stem sprouts from buds in the bark.  These are called epicormic sprouts.

Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

WDH

Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5-111, Kubota L2501, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

firefighter ontheside

Doc mentions epicormic sprouts and somebody shows up at my house tonight with a log.  There was no bark on it and I said I think that's elm.  See those epicormic sprouts.....
Woodmizer LT15
Kubota Grand L4200
Stihl 025, MS261 and MS362
2017 F350 Diesel 4WD
Kawasaki Mule 4010
1998 Dodge 3500 Flatbed

CabinCreations

Good info and thanks for digging up the links. Epicormic Sprouts - I think I may prefer "teets" as Doc called them!  :D

Those elm pieces from your link are really interesting, lots of character!
2011 LT35HD

doc henderson

I tried to give credit, it  was @WDH   who answered that question in the last post.  Elm is cool. ;)
Timber king 2000, 277c track loader, PJ 32 foot gooseneck, 1976 F700 state dump truck, JD 850 tractor.  2007 Chevy 3500HD dually, home built log splitter 18 horse 28 gpm with 5 inch cylinder and 32 inch split range with conveyor powered by a 12 volt tarp motor

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