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Building a Commercial Firewood Processor

Started by akwoodsman, November 12, 2013, 03:45:35 PM

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akwoodsman

Sorry for taking so long to reply you guys!!  I was hunting for a week or so and then got back and was quite busy! Im sure you can all relate!! it has also been about twenty degrees below zero! I believe that I saw the port size is 3/4 in is that enough? or should I call them and have them make 1 in ports? My fathers only splits 1 way, they have a 5 in bore w/ a 2.5 in rod at about 30 ton. the link says 3/4 in hose runs 27GPM.

Quote from: beenthere on November 19, 2013, 11:52:04 AM
Have an action video of the processor? Looks great, and presume it is as good splitting wood as it looks.
Nice build and finish.

the video is in his build thread. at the end of it.

I wouldnt know how to use a lathe or a milling machine. unfortunately. however we have people in town I know could build me small parts and pieces.


Anyone use a 1/2 ton pickup and a winch to skid trees? I'm wondering if this is where I should start to keep the costs down? (instead of buying a skidder at the moment) I have some time before peak season hits for green wood (3-4 months) so I might just do it that way. slowly but surely..

21incher

Good luck with your build. Building a processor will also require Heavy duty metal cutoff equipment and some critical welding of fairly thick steel. I also agree with GF you will need access to a mill and lathe with tooling. Also with a build like that you will need a shop large enough to contain the build and debug of the project. You will most likely have to invest several weeks of time which could stretch to months if you have to wait to have parts made by others and your designs may have to be adjusted due to the metal availability. Above all the safety of any operators must be taken into consideration when designing and building a project of this size.
Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, a logrite cant hook and a bread machine. And a Kubota Sidekick with a Defective Subaru motor.

akwoodsman

Quote from: 21incher on December 02, 2013, 07:01:01 PM
Good luck with your build. Building a processor will also require Heavy duty metal cutoff equipment and some critical welding of fairly thick steel. I also agree with GF you will need access to a mill and lathe with tooling. Also with a build like that you will need a shop large enough to contain the build and debug of the project. You will most likely have to invest several weeks of time which could stretch to months if you have to wait to have parts made by others and your designs may have to be adjusted due to the metal availability. Above all the safety of any operators must be taken into consideration when designing and building a project of this size.

My family just built a 50x60ft shop on our property. so I would build it in there. My brother is a heavy duty diesel mechanic by trade, so any real advanced pieces I would have him help with. Fairbanks, where I reside is a pretty busy industrial hub for oil companys and such. any steel I need will be able to be found locally. Thanks for the thoughts!

DDDfarmer

Here is the start of ours,



 

Only tractor available at the time of our test has very weak hydraulics.  Yet at a mid RPM the shear was able to cut this 9" tamarack.  Test was good now to keep on the build.
Treefarmer C5C with cancar 20 (gearmatic 119) winch, Husky 562xp 576xp chainsaws

Stephen Alford

   Hey DDDfarmer if you notice the invert  " T " on the back side of the shear, it will pull the wood off as the cylinder is retracted.   :)

 
logon

DDDfarmer

Does that shear blade go right past the anvil?  Even if it was the last cut of the stick, with a bypass cut the block should not stick.  " Should not "  ;D

Do you have any other pictures of your processor?  Maybe I could borrow some ideas ::)

Not trying to hijack your thread akwoodsman,  what type of processor were you thinking of building?  If this was not the type you were thinking of, we could start a different thread.
Treefarmer C5C with cancar 20 (gearmatic 119) winch, Husky 562xp 576xp chainsaws

Stephen Alford

    Hey Ak, some solid insight posted here; worth reading twice.   Start with defining what ,where when and to whom you are going to sell. Determine the source and nature of the product you will be processing. If purchasing a unit is off the table invest in an inline pressure guage so you can tell what is happening.  Do a forum search there have been some great threads on builds over the years. Good luck with your build look forward to pics.   :)



 
DDDfarmer this is the head.


 
Don't mean to be reposting but if it helps, top third of the twitch is usually sheared. Wood is sorted with log loader to meet customers preference. A second log loader is used on site at the landing which sorts and loads truck.


 
I haul 10"blocked and split up to long lengths and everything in the middle.  ;D
logon

akwoodsman

Quote from: Stephen Alford on December 03, 2013, 09:29:53 PM
    Hey Ak, some solid insight posted here; worth reading twice.   Start with defining what ,where when and to whom you are going to sell. Determine the source and nature of the product you will be processing. If purchasing a unit is off the table invest in an inline pressure guage so you can tell what is happening.  Do a forum search there have been some great threads on builds over the years. Good luck with your build look forward to pics.   :)

I have already explained. Birch firewood 16" lengths, I already have a small customer base. No offense guys, I realize you're just trying to help. however I am really looking for info on build. my business is going well just time to upgrade from hand bucking and hand splitting, to some mechanical machines. I am looking at some smaller timber sales. but have access to about 60-70 cords right now. Does anyone know about skidding trees with a truck and a winch? how to do it without tearing up your truck?

thecfarm

Your land better be easier than mine to get around on. I have rocks and uneven places,would be VERY hard to do it with a truck with the pumpkins hanging down. Seem like the front pumpkin is offset to one side and then the rear one is in the middle, that makes it hard to avoid the rocks.
There was a member that put an engine hoist jack in the rear of the truck. He would get the trees up to the back of the truck than jack the ends up so they would be up in the air. probably slow,but it does work. I have no idea about winches. You may want to start another thread about winches and using a truck in the woods. I think he welded the gears in the rear end too. I have played around some in the fields close to the house. It was a field years ago,it's hard to get a truck turned around in the woods too.
Find that post,it was fuzzybear,

https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,47252
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

DDDfarmer

Not saying it won't work as people have used customized trucks for logging.  But after using a small farm dozer, farm tractors from 35-85 hp then going to a skidder.  I won't go back to something that wasn't built for the job.

If you could rent a skidder for a week or two IMO I think you would be light years ahead in production than using a converted truck.  It might also be far more economical to do so.  With my treefarmer c5 I can skid more wood in one twitch than my pickup can hold in two loads. 

But I don't know what your ground is like, a truck might work in your area. A truck could be used on a 1/8 of the ground around here without heavy equipment to make roads, some places the truck would disappear from sight.
Treefarmer C5C with cancar 20 (gearmatic 119) winch, Husky 562xp 576xp chainsaws

akwoodsman

I would love to rent a skidder!! Unfortunately there are only a handful around and they are being utilized.. The ground is frozen and not very rocky at all the slopes are also moderate at best.. I was thinking a winch with a big roller to lift them off of the ground as they get to the truck. We don't get a lot of snow either..

North River Energy

AK,
I suspect that Stephen A is encouraging you to determine and maintain a focus if you want your business venture to succeed.

That said, here's some thoughts.  Some of which have, no doubt, already occurred to you.


It's all too easy to fixate on one part or another of the firewood production scheme, and forget that all of the parts should be 'balanced' for the system to work properly; in terms of safety, efficiency, quality of product, and of course profitability.

Sorting, decking, infeed, cutoff, splitting, outfeed, and delivery; each should complement the others, else you have a production bottleneck.

It doesn't really matter if the processor will produce X cord/hr if you can't deck it on, and send it 'down the road' at the same rate.

Processors are marketed based on cord/hr; a ploy which often plays on wishful thinking, more so than practical reality.

Most splitters are marketed based on tonnage, as that provides a way for consumers to use the tool as an extension of their identity, as well as a means of cleaving wood from itself.

A good processor, by comparison, should maximize production and the use of your time by way of thoughtful integration.  This integration should extend to what you run through the machine.

I.E., if you want to make time on a processor, you don't send gnarly, twisted, knotty logs through it.

Take the time to sort your raw materials,  and you won't need a lot of hydraulic oomph to get the job done. 

E.g., the return kickout on my auto-cycle valve is set around 1100-1200 psi, and it seldom 'bounces' prior to splitting, either two or six-way, on blocks up to 13".

This, with a 4" cylinder.  On whatever northeast hardwoods come my way.

You're planning on Birch and Spruce, 12" dia and under.  Which suggests that you can build your splitter section to maximize speed rather than power.

Which leads to the next point:
If you don't have a lot of hydraulic know-how, start your project by building the right splitter for your work environment/species/split size, and design it so that you can integrate it with your future block saw.

Spend as much time as possible, on the 'net and in person, watching other machines/operators, and make notes as to what works and what doesn't.  You may not find what you need right now, but you will surely find plenty of what you don't need. 


If you don't want to buy a cylinder with the optimal bore to rod diameter ratio (either Built-Rite or Multitek will provide one) then try to repurpose one from an aerial bucket lift or similar application. 

Tear it down for a reseal, and replace the ports with at least size sae 12 (3/4"), if not sae 16 (1") ports.  You probably won't need the flow capacity at first, but you will later.

Plan on adding an autocycle valve and a piloted dump valve at some point.

Autocycle will let the operator pay more attention to infeed and cutoff.  The dump valve will cut cycle time a bit, as well as reducing heat and fuel consumption.

Use a return filter assembly that greatly exceeds your flow requirements.

You can probably find a good used gear-type stack pump off an older excavator.  The units I have dealt with are stone simple, and tolerant of reasonable abuse. Ask your local hydraulic shop for recommendations based on what they can service.

Take the oil cooler at the same time you salvage the pump.

S-flex couplings handle shock loads better than standard Lovejoys.

While most common splitter valves max out around 25gpm, you can divert excess flow from a big pump to run a conveyor or the various other demands of your future processor.


At least with the Commercial brand, you can remove the rear stack section, and put it on the shelf for when you get the processor built and need another stage.

Use a ball valve on your tank outlet.

JIC fittings are much nicer to use than NPT.  Get yourself some line plugs/caps to keep the crud out when you take stuff apart.

Surplus center is a good source for name brand hose at good prices, and as of a few weeks ago, were still selling NRP JONES.

Discounthydraulichose.com has a pretty good selection of fittings.  They're most likely Chinese, but priced accordingly, and the quality appears to be respectable.

Make friends with someone in heavy plant repair.  Offer to barter some of your production or other labor for the opportunity to 'borrow' surplus used hydraulic fittings, hoses, valves, etc.  This type of lend/lease arrangement will allow you to prototype on a budget.

Use something common to your area for a powerplant.   Assume you will need more power in the future, and go with something capable of driving more pump than you immediately need.

Portable welding machines are a good source of compact diesel power.


If you are unsure about matching rpm and pump flow rates, set up a chain drive and swap sprockets around until you find something that keeps both engine and pump happy.

Machine tools certainly help with build quality and options, but you can get a lot done with a torch, grinder and buzz box.

And advance planning. 

One of the big advantages of the mill and lathe, is that you can design the parts to bolt together for easy assembly and disassembly.  And you can make stuff fit where it doesn't really want to.

You have a truck and dump trailer, so after the splitter, get after the conveyor.  Even if you are hand loading out of a stockpile, the conveyor will increase production and reduce fatigue.


Admittedly, hand work can get tedious in a production environment, but if you add capacity as you need it, without adding operating overhead (debt), you'll be better off.  If your splitter is designed for your physical size and work habits, the job will seem less like work and more like a way to get ahead in the world.

Which leads to the next point:
If you can buy logs at a favorable rate, don't waste your time trying to harvest on your own.  Leave that until your processing speed exceeds your suppliers ability to maintain your stockpile.  And also until such time that you can afford to operate the appropriate equipment.

Your physical exposure is decreased, and your costs will be better managed.

I used to skid firewood with an FJ40.  It worked well, within reason, but in retrospect, my time could  have been better spent.  And I'm sure I didn't do the truck any favors.


You're young, ambitious and presumably have plenty of time to grow the production side of your business.  Your apparent lack of financing should help you plan carefully and divine the clear path ahead.

Good luck with the endeavor.  I can post a link to my processor build if it will be helpful.













akwoodsman

North River Energy,

Thanks for the thoughts. first I will start with log truck prices, they're outrageous here. over half what Im getting for a cord of wood..

My father used to run one of the biggest civil construction company's in Alaska. I used to work in the shop and am still friends with the master mechanic there. they can make hoses there and Im pretty positive him and I could work a deal. I know just most the owners of the industrial companies around town and could likely get good discounts on most of my supplies. hell I might be able to get most my steel from friends shop "scrap" piles for free..

I am only looking to do around 1000-2000 cord next year that would make me quite happy.

as for the loading out of a stockpile I could rent a skidsteer from my friend who charges hourly instead of daily! so if I use a portable welder would I use it as a generator for electric hydraulic pumps?

Thanks!
Patrick

North River Energy

One man's outrageous is another man's bargain.  What are you paying per cord, and what can you sell at? 
The numbers have to work one way or the other, so you might have to raise your prices.  If you provide quality and quantity to your clients, they shouldn't have a problem with that.


If you will be loading out of a pile regularly, get yourself some sort of tine/rock bucket. It will save time, fuel, and keeps the dirt out of the product.


 

I suspect round tines work much better than plate tines.

No doubt you have structural welding companies in your area.  They may have a 200 amp unit or two with damaged electrics and a good motor.  Or a unit with too many small problems to put back into production field use.  Lincoln SA200-250 usually runs either a Perkins or Deutz, and both would be up to the task.

I was traded a viable SA250 for 'shop credit'+karma.  In other words, more or less free.

You'd have to fabricate some sort of stub shaft off the flywheel, but that's simple work.

You might also want to look at some of the Scandinavian processors.  They seem to do a lot with smaller diameter birch by way of shearing.


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