Sfi certification

[Cub]

Does it pay to go through the fista classes to be sfi certified? I mean there's always learning to be had and I try to get every little piece of knowledge I can. But is it necessary?

[Southside]

Around here there are some mills that require certification in order to sell logs to them. 

[Skeans1]

Almost all the mills out here require that someone be certified, most companies will require you to be certified to even work on their ground.

[Maine logger88]

The only reason I did it is because one of the main mills I sell to requires it. But now that I did it I'm glad I did I did learn a few useful things 

[BargeMonkey]

 Here in NY it's called "TLC", same idea. Be open minded, theres always something to learn, alot of people taking the class dont have much saw time so take some of what they say with a grain of salt. Here it's worth doing, I make more money being certified, there are times when things are slow that I can ship wood in and those who aren't can not. 

[Cub]

I'm not sure if any of the mills around here require it. I don't sell directly to the mills. I have a hauler/broker. Maybe he's certified I'm not sure. I never asked. I'll find out next time I talk to him. I figured maybe Id go through the courses. It's a few 8 hour days on weekends to do the basic stuff. Then a 4 hour continuing education class once a year to keep the certification. Can't hurt. And I'll probably learn some stuff. And that's always a plus. There will probably come a day when it will be mandatory. 

[Maine logger88]

They way it was explained to me by my woodbuyer they can sell paper easier if they have that sfi logo on there. 

[Cub]

Makes sense. You guys that are certified do they pay a little extra if your certified? 

[barbender]

I personally think the SFI, FSC, and other certifications are kind of a joke. It's the way things have gone though and if you get more money for your wood having it, by all means go for it.

[Texas Ranger]

and the back door is a "certified" logger

[teakwood]

I personally think the SFI, FSC, and other certifications are kind of a joke

I agree with that statement

I could certify my teakplantations, the FSC Certification is "Free" but i have to hire a private firm from i don't now where and it would cost me over 10k, what a joke! For my small 37ha teak plantation it's not viable. 
thanks for the Asians who don't give a dang about these certifications i have no shortage of buyers!

I don't use chemicals, treat my workers well, pay them an honest salary and use all the PPE necessary, i already fulfill all the requirements, why should i have to pay 10k??

then there is the other side of the certifications:  Illegal teak is cut down in Myanmar and sold to the Chinese, shipped thru other country's where they get the FSC seals and the European buyer thinks he is buy sustainable lumber!       

[mike_belben]

Its all just another scam made up by folks in clean clothes trying to make a living off folks in dirty clothes.  Kinda like insurance.  Theyre in the business of collecting premiums and denying claims.

[Skeans1]

Some of these organizations do help lobby to help keep us employed, yes it's a little sticker but that person who lives in the city loves to see it makes them feel all warm inside.

[chevytaHOE5674]

The last continuing ed I took was about filtering your diesel fuel (nothing to do with spills or containment, etc). It was some fuel filter salesman trying to sell us on filters. Tell me how that has anything to do with sustainable forests? 

[barbender]

Yep, Chevy- a lot of it has nothing to do with timber management or "sustainability". People that operate ethically as stewards of the land, will do so regardless of a little SFI stamp. They do a few good things, but mostly I look at it as a bunch of people performing not much of a function, that have to have their salaries paid by the raw products we produce. Folks in clean clothes making a living off of folks in dirty clothes, as Mike put it. I was explaining to someone yesterday, nearly every forest I have ever cut was "sustainable". When we got done trees began growing again almost immediately (the exception being a few home sites and a site a potato farm was going in🙄). The real forest loss is taking place where all the people that do the whining live- the suburbs. They clear 160 acres for a subdivision of asphalt and concrete, and turn around and whine about the trees that loggers harvest.

[Runningalucas]

Everything is 'licensed' now.  Where there were never licenses required,  there's a soft push of simple requirements and ***fees*** put in place.   Then we've got the professions that have been licensed for several decades now; they just make the licenses more expensive, accompanied with a multitude of side 'certifications', that all cost money, and are also increasingly required, while all of it goes up in cost.

Quick example.  My first electrical master contractor license was $104 for 3 years.  No other stipulations, or requirements other than testing to prove my knowledge.  Roll forward to now, the same license almost always requires bonding, and insurance.  Some jurisdictions mandate that you report any misdemeanors, or worse; these jurisdictions usually flat out state, they have sole discretion of pulling your license for any criminal violation=DUI???  Not sure, but it's there in writing. 

So from $104 for 3 years, to roughly $2000+ per year.  

What's even more pathetic, is back when it was cheap, the tests were extremely difficult; yet today with more complex code, they're much easier, and don't ask many test questions where higher thinking, or more complex concepts would separate the folks who really are at the level of knowledge necessary, and who's not.

It really seems to be a money game, and even though there are more requirements to hold the license, and even more cost to obtain it, due to the tests being easier overall, it's led to a myriad of niche 'certification progams'.  Now there are several quasi-private 'organizations', charging big money for various 'certification programs'; eg. solar, industrial, et el. 

[mike_belben]

Dont even get me started on CDLs.  :

[Cub]

Pretty much how I thought about all of it too. I don't think the sfi certificate does much lobbying. But the GLTPA probably does. I'm a member of that and have no problem there. But you don't need a certificate to be a member. 

[Tasha]

SFI does not get much talk around out here.   FSC is the buzz word of the day/month/year/decade.  Even the local county government is getting the FSC on the county owned forest land.

We have one individual who with foresight and planning now makes his living by  running the Northwest Natural Resource Group which basically helps folks get their land/forest FSC'ed.

Scam may be a bit of a strong word but not by much.  It is a scheme to make money for an organization and the people running it.  I kind of like the clean cloths/dirty clothes analogy.

[Old Greenhorn]

Here in NY it's called "TLC", same idea. Be open minded, theres always something to learn, alot of people taking the class dont have much saw time so take some of what they say with a grain of salt. Here it's worth doing, I make more money being certified, there are times when things are slow that I can ship wood in and those who aren't can not.

@BargeMonkey Monkey, I thought the same thing, but not being a full time commercial logger, I went and looked it up. The SFI and FSC are very extensive and expensive certifications to certify the products, methods of harvest, sustainability, and management practices of a company or group. Read through the requirements. It has all the earmarks of a good idea that has a huge bureaucracy grown up around it. The FSC even requires certified members to 'provide financial support' to research in order to show good intent.
 The TLC (which I also hold) is for individual loggers and is usually required by logging companies or their insurance companies to make sure their work force has some sort of training and understanding of the job. i think I spent $250 getting my original cert. Yes, that too is a bit of a money game, but at least there is some good basic training for folks doing dangerous work. Also, in my area the NYC watershed holds a lot of sway and you can cut on those associated lands without that certification. I can never, in almost any circumstances see my desire to pursue the FSC or SFI, just based on cost, both up front and then continuing through with all the paperwork and record keeping. It may not be a scam, but it is a scheme for sure.

[mike_belben]

i am a natural skeptic of all organizing.  It always starts with indoctrination before going on to the fundraising stage.

I used to be buried in partisan politics.  How ridiculous is it for a guy in rags to send money to a crowd in drycleaned suits and luxury cars?  But thats what it is.  The getting poorer sending money to the getting richer.

[barbender]

We are so smart we are both SFI and FSC certified up here🙄

[mills]

Kentucky has the Master Logger certification. Law requires that every job have at least one certified master logger on site whenever the operation is running. The initial certification requires three days of classes, and then one day every three years to keep it updated. Although a pain in the rear making time to attend, the classes vary and the topics are relevant to our trade. And, so far it hasn't turned into a money game. The people running it try to make it worthwhile. But, it's basically a way to regulate loggers. We don't have to notify them when we move onto a job site, but now it's fairly simple for them to track us down.

[earache]

Cub,
SFI training through FISTA is a great program. There is no (that I have ever seen) any "certification" for SFI through FISTA. One gets SFI trained. A lot of people call it certified, but it isn't. There is A LOT of great information shared at the classes. It is also a great place for in woods to network . Even if you don't need it to sell your wood, it's good education. I'm the contract holder on all of the would I produce and sell, so I'm required to have a certain amount of hours per year of continuing education, which I easily meet. 
I hope to see you at a class. 

[quilbilly]

Sfi is better than FSC. FSC is absolutely terrible and IMO a scam for Europeans to compete on the world market by making other regions less cost efficient