Timberking B20 Band want track

Paper Maker · January 23, 2011, 09:33:59 PM

I'm looking for some advice on wether to crown my band wheels or not. I have tried over and over to get the band to track. I've called and talked to Mike at TimberKing several times. He has been very helpful but I can't seem to make it track. I can go through all the steps that Mike and the book tells you to do. I have had it tracking several times but if I wait a couple days and check it by hand again the blade runs off in a very short order. I've looked over and over to see if something may be moving but have had no such luck. So by now I'm grasping at straws. I called Aaron Cook at Cooks saw witch is where I bought my blades. He also was very helpful and understanding at my frustration. His advice was to put a crown on my band wheels and that would probably solve my problems. TimberKing on the other hand says the wheels should be flat. I have spent hours upon hours working on this problem with little success. Has anyone out there ever put a crown on a flat wheel. At this point I'm about ready to try anything maybe even a MATCH.

fstedy · January 24, 2011, 12:06:57 AM

Is your blade actually running off the band wheels? If so I would start from the beginning on the TK tracking proceedure. When the mill was working were you getting wavy cuts? Wavy cuts are usually due to a dull band. I haven't had any problems with the wheel belts except to change them when worn. Even then they weren't a problem. Are the guide rollers worn they usually need replacement about every 500 hours. The WM and TK mills both run wheel belts so I don't think going to a metal crowned wheel is your answer. Besides thats an expensive option. Keep trying you will be successful.

redbeard · January 24, 2011, 12:36:35 AM

If you have steel wheels, I would let the idle side track to the shoulder just barely and drive side let band stay off the shoulder a 1/8 or so. If you have auto belts should be pretty easy to track. Unless your adjusting bolts are broke, mine were sheared off half way through the mounting bracket threads I didn't figure it until i had the problem you are having. My first time I Had a hard time also once tracking got out of whack mine happened over time of bands breaking there is alot of energy there and the tracking bolts can only take so much. I would take the idle wheel off and make sure all the adjusting bolts are ok. Don't worry about it getting all out of whack ,Replace bolts there only 1.50 at the hardware store even if they show a little wear on the threads. when everything checks out and you have it all installed back use torpedo level and level wheels vertical and use a string line or straight edge and level the wheels horizontal. Then go to manual and do the tracking steps you will be amazed how easy it is once the idle wheel is all roughed in level. One other thing how thick are the blades .055 will give you trouble i have to track different when i use them i want blade to slightly track back.Toward the guide roller shoulder but not touch it. Don't be skeptical on taking things apart and re-doing them The B-20 is easy to work on and the sooner you get know it the quicker you will be back in bus. sawing. All mills break down and get out of whack. I wouldn't worry about crowning wheels unless you have steel wheels but im not that knowledgeble on those. Ladylake should have some good insight on this he has alot of B-20 hrs under his belt. Im still learning from these guys also. good luck hope some of this helps.

ladylake · January 24, 2011, 06:40:06 AM

It sounds like your running flat steel wheels which I've heard are hard to adjust, I'm running B56 belts. Even so the tracking shouldn't change from day to day . Check your bearings on both the drive wheel and idle wheel. When I first got mine I had trouble with the outer race in the idle side wheel loosening up in the cast bore, a trip to the machine shop where they installed a spacer fixed that. Also I'd check the bolts on the drive side, I've never touched the drive side but thats worth checking. Also there are four 1/2" bolts that hold the head to the frame that are used to tilt the head , I did have one of those break and that will effect the tracking When adjusted properly you should be able to turn the blade in either direction and it should track the same. Steve

Paper Maker · January 24, 2011, 09:51:13 AM

I do have flat steel wheels. I even had a machinist turn both wheels. I put 2 new bearings and replaced adjustment bolts with #8 bolts on idel side. I also put 2 new shafts in the guide rollers. The machinist said that both wheels were true and that he didn't think that was my problem. He also said that wheels he had done in the past had a crown on them. My thing is if I can make it track in its correct position and two days latter it wont track at all. I think its way to sensitive. Is it possible that temperature change could cause this.

beenthere · January 24, 2011, 10:49:30 AM

QuoteTimberKing on the other hand says the wheels should be flat.

If TK says they should be flat, then I'd suggest leaning on them for some adjustment advice.

If you had a machinist turn them flat, then it reminds me of a bandsaw problem that I recall........created by a machinist who turned the wheels flat. After that, there was no sane way to keep the band running true except to crowd it hard against the guide rollers. And that doesn't work well IMO.

In my case, my machinist thought he knew best, but he didn't. Slow moving steel cutting bands apparently have flat wheels. Don't think it works for the fast moving wood blades. The crown will cause the blade to seek the "high" spot (crown) and stay in line better. Again, my opinion.

Paper Maker · January 24, 2011, 02:07:12 PM

TK has been very helpful with the steps to take in the tracking. I'm going to get fire wood up before it gets dark and then I'm going to give it one more try. If I can't get it this time I'll get a crown put on them. If that doesn't work I'll do it like most people do exercise equipment. Make a clothes rack out of it.

tyb525 · January 24, 2011, 02:16:21 PM

Member weisyboy just started a thread about a vertical resaw he is looking at. Someone mentioned that flat steel wheels are next to impossible to get a blade tracking on. I'd go with a crown, unless TK can tell you the cure.

captain_crunch · January 24, 2011, 10:33:08 PM

Don't know about bandsaw blades but conveyer belts run truer on crowned pullys

redbeard · January 25, 2011, 12:19:34 AM

Paper maker can you give us some more history on before this tracking problem, Are these wheels the Cooks after market wheels they sell for timberking B-20s or are they original Timberkings?

Paper Maker · January 25, 2011, 05:29:37 AM

These are the original TK wheels. When I bought the saw I didn't know what type of troubles to look for in a used sawmill. To be honest I was tired of looking for a sawmill and bought the first one I found close to home. When I got home with the saw I stared servicing it. Changing oil,filters,greasing bearings and just cleaning it up. My luck went south the first time I cranked it up in my shop. Busted hydraulic line. Ten more Hydraulic lines later and I think the lines are in good shape now. I had to do some carb work on the 25hp kohler engine next. Somebody had the wrong springs on the governor. Then I found the hydraulic handel holders had filled up with water and rusted to the point that they would stick and not return to neutral position. Finally I get it set up and try to cut my first log. I keep breaking blades or they would run off. I looked closer and the blades were tracking front on one wheel back on the other. I put it back in the shop and found where someone had been adjusting on parts they shouldn't have. I know this because adjustment bolt where stripped out. So I fixed all this put #8 bolts in place of all #5 bolts. All the adjustments are in good shape now. I worked on it till 4:00 this morning and may be close to getting it. I just undone every thing and started from scratch. But I finally gave out of gas myself. I'll get back on it around lunch today.

ladylake · January 25, 2011, 07:27:34 AM

If you had it adjusted to track good when turning the band in both directions and it changed 2 days later thare has to be something changing, I'd be checking for loose bolts, is the idle wheel bearing tight in the bore, maybe something moving around on the drive side. Did you check the head mounting bolts, if broke that could let the head twist a bit. Sounds like the former owner did little maintaince and what he did wasn't very good. Steve

beenthere · January 25, 2011, 10:10:59 AM

Quote from: Paper Maker on January 25, 2011, 05:29:37 AM
These are the original TK wheels. ............

Previously said

QuoteI do have flat steel wheels. I even had a machinist turn both wheels.

Not to belabor the point, but were the original TK wheels turned flat by your machinist? Your two statements conflict a bit.

Sorry to hear of all the problems, but does sound like previous owners left you with a lot of extra work.

Ladylake
Can you confirm if TK wheels are flat surface for the band to run on ??

Paper Maker · January 25, 2011, 03:19:47 PM

The TK wheels are made flat by the company. I called TK and they said after 400 hours the wheel may need ground back flat. My machinist took about .015 off to true them up. He told me that they were already flat and that he didn't think this was the problem.
As Ladylake has pointed out. I wonder if something is moving? It maybe crazzy but could temperature change cause this. I have looked at every weld and bolt and can't find anything else wrong. I have figured one thing out though. The adjustments you make are super sensitive. Just barely move adjustment and lock it down makes a big difference on where the band rides. TK told me that the band should be 5/16 from back of blade to the back of wheel. Then turn wheel 10 times forward and 10 backwards and the band should stay the same. Don't misunderstand me. TK has been great help over the phone. It's just got to the point where its embarrassing to keep calling them. I'll get it one day or go broke trying.My wife has already grounded me. She took my check book,credit cards, and put me on a budget. I wouldn't say anything about a sawmill around her if I were you.

dchiapin · January 25, 2011, 05:00:10 PM

I had the same problem when my B20 when it was brand new, I readjusted the drive side tracking adjustment as per the specks in the manual (remember the tracking is a toe-in similar to tracking on the front end of a vehicle), double checked the mill was level and the
guide bar was perfectly level with the mill. After all this I found one of the problems was in the hydraulic tensioner, TK sent me a new one and that was the real fix. I use Timber Wolf blades and run them at 750-800 psi and have had no more problems in 3 years (knock on wood).
Hope this helps

Mark Webb · January 26, 2011, 07:55:57 AM

Paper Maker, If you decide you want to try the crowned wheels from Cooks let me know I have a set that I bought and tried and then put my other wheels back on. I know some TK owners have had good success with them. I'll make a very good deal on them

Jim H · January 26, 2011, 08:24:45 AM

If you want to try crowned wheels, I recall seeing a video from suffolk machinery where they built up the crown with electrical tape. They used several layers, each one being trimmed a little narrower than the previous one. I think you would have to pay attention to the direction you wrapped it so the rotation would keep it on rather than pull it off. Hope this helps. Jim

Larry · January 26, 2011, 09:11:03 AM

I don't think whether your wheels are flat or crowned is the problem. You stated the blade runs completely off the wheel which sounds like something is way out of spec. Worn wheels would just allow the band to move back and forth a bit.

I would get a dial indicator and check run out in both planes on your wheels. I would also put a straight edge across the wheels and see if they are basically in the same plane. Just remember the tracking adjustment cants the wheels. Put a level on each wheel and see if the vertical adjust is the same.

My old Kasco had flat steel wheels and the band would track like it was on rails...except when I had bearings going bad. Symptoms were similar, starting with a band that would wander. I know you put in new bearings but are they good? Most bearings are coming from China and quality is suspect. Any pre-load or spacers missing in there? Races good and tight in the hub?

Just guessing, but looks like you are exhausting the options. Hate to see you spend money on new wheels when I suspect the problem being something else.

Paper Maker · January 26, 2011, 09:41:44 AM

I know you all think I have lost my mind. Yesterday I had it where it would track.It wasn't in the right place but it was tracking. I got off work this morning and was going to try and Finish tracking it. So I put the tention on turned it by hand and it started to run off. I checked the drive side for plumb and it is off a small amount. Now my question is if the bearing is bad I should be able to feel some slack. But they don't seem to have any. Every thing seems to be ok. I just don't know what it could be.
Mr. Mark Webb I may be interested in your wheels. If I thought it would solve my problem I know I would. Is there a reason you didn't like running them.
Mr. Larry I just read your post. I only put bearings on the idle side. I ordered them from one of our suppliers at the paper mill where I work. I would think they were quality bearings. The drive side bearing is a different type that I'm not very familiar with.All I can tell about it is I can't feel any slack.

ladylake · January 26, 2011, 04:10:09 PM

When your checking your wheel bearing use a pry bar both ways to try and wiggle the wheels. Just pulling by hand might not be enough pressure. When my bearing got loose in the bore they didn't seem to wiggle a lot, but machining the bore fixed the problem. The bands were falling off before. Steve

Mark Webb · January 26, 2011, 04:23:39 PM

Paper Maker, For me they would track good and then vary some. The idea of not having to change the v-belts is really what got me interested in them and them being turned perfectly (?) true was the other. I use a lot of desiel on the pine I cut. Anyway something else I found out though was after you run and sharpen the blades several times you have to flatten the blade because the crown in the wheel will eventually put one in the blade. That's why Cook sells a flatener. I've got alot in that experiment. For some they work good but for me they didn't

laffs · January 26, 2011, 07:05:49 PM

when the blade comes of, does it go forward or backward? i assume forward since the guide wheels would/should hold it.
maybe shim the bearing to give you more backward adjustment.
are the wheels aligned with each other? set screws tight on the bearings so it wont move
is the wheel level up and down?
doesnt tak much movement for a bad bearing.
if you can get hold of a mag base dial indicator and set it up on the wheel with no blade on it.
hope it all works out for you.
Brent

Larry · January 26, 2011, 07:42:03 PM

Quote from: Paper Maker on January 26, 2011, 09:41:44 AM
The drive side bearing is a different type that I'm not very familiar with.All I can tell about it is I can't feel any slack.

Testing for bad bearings by feel is not always accurate because your not testing under load, or with the correct operating rpm. I've seen worn out bearings that felt smooth and spun longer than new bearings when spun by hand. Just last week I put new bearings in a motor. The old bearings felt great but the motor screamed like a banshee. Still can't figure that one out, but the new bearings fixed things right up.

Keep your chin up...bet it's something simple when ya find it.

redbeard · February 05, 2011, 01:43:00 AM

Well its my turn for issues my Idle side wheel bearing toasted, Blade went flying off the wheels thought maybe some bark or a knot threw the blade, went to put back on and two three spins it walked forward quickly, probably wouldn't have caught it but remembered Larrys post about bearings, sure enough it was barely noticeable movement side to side and spinning wheel it just wasn't the same. Really saw the movement after i pulled wheel and put in vice and gave it the fine tooth comb. Off to NAPPA in the morning hope they have one.

ladylake · February 05, 2011, 06:46:07 AM

Red
Make sure to check if the outer race fits in the wheel tight, when I first got my mill I had trouble with that. A trip to the machine shop where they installed a steel sleeve fixed that for good. Steve

rbarshaw · February 05, 2011, 09:15:22 AM

An easy way to put a temporary crown on the wheels is to put three layers of duct tape on the wheels, 1st layer is 1" wide, 2nd layer is 3/4" wide centered on the 1" layer and, last is 1/2" wide. Use Gorilla tape. If it tracks with this then It will track with the wheels having a crown machined on them. Using the tape is lower cost for a test.

redbeard · February 10, 2011, 09:39:50 AM

My Tracking problem continues even after new bearings

The 1/2" steel plate that adjustments are on cracked,It shows up when blade is at full tension.You can see the crack just above the weld on spindle axel and its actually below too, pretty tough part to just break. At least I know what it is now been messing with this problem all week.

ladylake · February 10, 2011, 10:24:59 AM

Are you going to put in a new part or weld it, looks like there's room to beef it up if you weld it. Steve

redbeard · February 12, 2011, 01:15:15 AM

I ordered a new one it was 75.00, I think i will beef up the cracked one with a backer plate. It was a relief just finding the actual problem i sure was scratching my head for a few days.

Paper Maker · February 12, 2011, 10:38:05 PM

Well I've got some good news. My dad talked to one of his old friends "a machinest" he used to work with. He agreed to see what he could do with the wheels. He made a shaft just for chucking the wheels up in the lathe. In a few days he called and said the drive side had .025 run out. He said that he could put a crown on it and make the crown strait and true. He jokingly said it would be like reverse machining and that it would be a challenge. I finally got them back and was able to try them on some mock orange. While I was sawing, the log turned a little twisting the band. I was able to saw out the other end without the band coming off. That tells me that its finally right. I've got 2 jobs lined up for the real test, mostly pine and 2 seasoned hickory logs. It'll be a welcome change to work the saw instead of working on the saw.
I have got one more question though. What kind of wipes do I use on crowned wheels.

Paper Maker · February 12, 2011, 11:05:16 PM

Redbeard I hate you've got this problem; but its good you know what it is. I was able to pick those 2 bearings up for about $65.00. I'm sure you can get a better deal; but I was working on the saw and thought that I needed them at the time. I got them at a industrial supply here in town.
I'm sure you want have anywhere near the trouble I had. After all I'm just a rookie.

Will_Johnson · May 18, 2011, 02:32:29 PM

These wheels were originally made solid and flat and at the time we felt this was the best way to go.

But...we're always questioning our own assumptions about design -- we never paint ourselves into a design corner and say "This is perfect." (Ahem.)

When we came out with our 1220 mill we put belted wheels on the mill because it was a "hobby" mill and we thought this was a more fool-proof user friendly design.

So it was. But also guess what? They worked great! So we eventually took our whole product line to belted wheels and can't say strongly enough how much better we feel about this design. My advice would be to have the wheels machined out to accept a b-section belt or to purchase new blade wheels from TimberKing.