Sabatoge?

hicks · May 12, 2011, 06:36:22 PM

My grandpa had his saw hammered over the weekend and Monday the head sawyer was heating the blade by putting side pressure on the blade while running logs through and throwing cold water on it. What is his reasoning for this? He knew the mill was getting worked on the next day because it was out of alignment. I changed this from lastnight. My facts weren't straight. Thank you to all replies.

hicks · May 12, 2011, 07:04:19 PM

any input would help I see alot of views. Thanks

wood monger · May 12, 2011, 07:34:12 PM

I,m not well versed on mills or saw blades, but this sounds like he may have been attempting to harden the steel. Getting it hot then quenching it changes the hardness of the steel, depending on how hot it was could be hardening or annealing,(making softer).

bandmiller2 · May 12, 2011, 08:47:19 PM

Hicks,did he know the saw was sent out to be tensioned?He apparently didn't like how it handled and wanted to get it back where it was.Theirs alot of black art and old wives tails with saws.How does it cut now? FrankC.

Jeff · May 12, 2011, 08:56:15 PM

Only he can answer what the reasoning was. Did you ask him? What ever his reasoning was, he was a fool.

SPIKER · May 12, 2011, 09:06:58 PM

shrinking or stretching metal can be done this way, usually blades from what I know are hammered though. a blade that has been over hammered may need to be shrunk back down. I used to do a lot of metal forming this way with heating & quenching to remove dents in stretched body panels on cars. it works really well if you know what you are doing but it is also easy to over do it. usually requires heating to a dull cherry color in a small spot usually using a wet rag you wait until the metal cools down to just where the red is going out of it then apply the rag. the HOT metal will then shrink in the area of the rag more than the warmed area around it and it will contract MORE than the slowly cooled metal causing it to shrink. If the blade was over hammered in one spot the stretched metal needs to be shrunken down to pull out the dimple that would result.

Mark

hicks · May 12, 2011, 09:23:38 PM

He did know it was getting hammered and as soon as my uncle and grandpa left the mill the sawyer and his brother went to the mill, locked the gate, and started torching and cooling the blade. My uncle and grandpa happened to go back to the mill and found them doing this to the blade. The mill has been losing money for a couple of years. My grandpa is 75 and if something don't change stress may get the better of him. As for the sawyer knowing how to tension a blade. I highly doubt it. I am learning from input and google searches. I want the mill to make a turn around. The mill is about 10 years old and it's a hurdle. It used to make alot of money. I would like to see this again. Thanks for all replies on how to turn this thing around.

Jeff · May 12, 2011, 10:51:12 PM

Hicks, to the left you will find link to menominee saw. Call them and ask for Peach. Explain to him what is going on and he will tell you what you need to know.

Trying to explain why someone might do to this to the saw blade is a waste of time spiker. You simply do not do that to a sawmill headsaw. What ever his intentions were, it is not how you go about fixing a saw while it hangs, but its certainly what you would do to ruin one

Dave Shepard · May 12, 2011, 11:18:08 PM

I don't know what kind of steel a head saw is made of, but if it has high enough carbon content, it could be made very brittle. This could cause a catastrophic failure or hinder the saw docs performance. I suspect that may be what is going on here. That, or just plain ignorance of heat treatment and head saw maintenance. Of which, I am somewhat familiar with the former, and severely lacking in the latter.

Chris Burchfield · May 13, 2011, 07:53:50 AM

Hicks, Hurdle www.hurdlemachineworks.com/ is located in Moscow TN. They hosted a Forestry meeting in their shop a few years back. They gave a tour of their shop. They were by then, building using a band blade. Much larger than what I was interested in. It is well built equipment. Unless someone produced a degree in metallurgy, I'd say hit the road jack! I would consider pressing charges for destruction of property. The blade cost probably could not be recouped but, you could show it as a loss for replacement on taxes.

bandmiller2 · May 13, 2011, 08:13:34 AM

Hicks,with that outher information it does sound like sabatoge,prehaps the sawyer wants to buy the mill cheap, and a buggered saw would put gramps over the edge. Frank C.

WH_Conley · May 13, 2011, 08:27:57 AM

I was thinking along the lines of what bandmiller2 was getting at. Would there be a vested interest in seeing the old man go under, as in, buy it cheap?

hicks · May 13, 2011, 12:18:05 PM

the sawyer is actually a son in law. He would benefit from profit through inheritance. It makes me sick to know this man is this stupid. He won't get a chance to ever do it again. If anyone knows an experienced sawyer in southern mo, my family is looking for one.

Kansas · May 13, 2011, 02:29:09 PM

Only three things I can think of if its sabatoge.
1) Payback for some percieved slight.
2) As stated, wanting to buy the mill cheap.
3) The one I would guess, he wanted to go on unemployment and draw a paycheck without working.

hicks · May 13, 2011, 02:34:38 PM

I posted the original thread wrong. They where heating it up running logs through and cooling it with water. But the saw just came out of the shop from being tensioned to the rpm of the mill. I had a mis communication on how it was heated. Sorry for the mix up. But the end result I think would be similar.

Tom · May 13, 2011, 02:45:03 PM

Yes, I've seen water thrown on a hot blade by a sawyer who owned the saw. It heated from sawing the log. I didn't know what he was doing at the time (he's known as an experienced sawyer), but it didn't seem right. I figured he was compensating for a miss-tuned piece of machinery. It seems I asked the question on this forum many years ago but can't find it. I believe the answer concerned "Lead". That's direction, not Pb.

The sawyer in my instance wouldn't be trying to hurt the saw because he owned it and it was his livelihood, but it still might have been done out of ignorance.

It makes a big difference that he was sawing rather than taking a torch to it, to me. If the company is in the red, the problem needs to be fixed, but he might or might not be the problem. If he is the problem, then this might be an excuse to get rid of him if you can sleep at night with the decision.

Firing a brother-in-law or son-in-law would be akin to firing a sister or daughter. Both would be difficult to do and might be the unwinding of them as family. It could be that your Grandfather is concerned about that aspect as well.

hicks · May 13, 2011, 03:20:25 PM

It was funny that they locked the gate and didn't tell anyone that they were going to try it out. I agree the machine is out of tune but my uncle had a guy look at the mill and he was supposed to make adjustments the next day. After the adjustments were made then it was going get a test run. The sawyer knew this but I think he wanted to prove he could get it running the way it was. The mill has not been producing consistent lumber like it is and my uncle was trying to get a better product. The experienced sawyer you mentioned, I'm sure had many years of experience not less than five years. Yes it has affected my grandfathers decision to let him go. He got caught drinking on the job in the fall and being a son in law saved his job then.

Ron Wenrich · May 13, 2011, 06:19:33 PM

Now we're talking about a horse of a different color. Let's get the sabotage out of the way. I think you have a problem with the mill that a nobody is able to solve.

The problems of a heating saw could be in the collars, the lead, the guides, the husk, the track or the carriage. I don't think there's any part of the mill left out.

Here's a place for you to start and get familiar with. Lunstrom's book on circle saw operations. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf It covers all aspects of mill operations. Also has a trouble shooting section in the back. I've used it and it helps quite a bit.

A saw that heats up will lay over. I will not cut consistent lumber. But, the trick is to find the reason it is heating. I envision your mill as an older hand mill. Maybe you can set me straight as to how your operation is set up. Wood husk or metal husk. Steel track or wooden track. At no time do you want direct sunlight on the blade. It will cause problems. RPM must be right, and the belts should be tight so there isn't any slippage. Make sure nothing is rubbing against the saw, like a belt or a piece of wood.

Sawing technique has something to do with heat. If your overloading your saw by feeding to fast, your saw will slow down. That loss of RPM means the saw will open up and saw off line. That will cause heat. The saw should sound the same from the beginning of the cut to the end. If that isn't happening, then you won't get consistent cuts, and you will have saw problems.

The first place I start at is by looking at the bits. Saw bits aren't as good as they used to be. But, I would put in new bits and see if that solves the problem. If it does, then you have a filing problem. If the teeth are angled, your saw will saw towards the longest point. If its sawing out of the log, you'll have a heating problem.

If it doesn't, then I would look at the guides. Guides should be set that you can see a little daylight on each side. They also shouldn't be hitting any portion of the shank. It is possible to push the saw or pull the saw with the guides. If you pull too much, you'll open the saw up, and that will heat it up. The guides should be well secured.

If that's ok, then check the lead. Lead varies in each mill, and may need to be changed depending on the time of the year. You want the front cutting edge to be a little closer to the log side than the back edge. To check, loosen the guides, measure from one tooth to the headblock. Mark that tooth and rotate the saw 180°. Advance your carriage and measure from the same tooth to the same headblock. The back side should be about 1/16" stronger than the front side. But, I've had a mill that needed as much as 3/8". So, you may need to advance your lead. You do that by the rear bearing and move it left or right by the adjustment screws. If you have more than 2 bearings, you need to loosen the middle ones or you'll spring your arbor.

If all that doesn't solve your problems, my next suspect area is the track. You could have a dip in the track where the log is actually moving left or right at the saw. That has to be corrected. Sometimes you can feel it if you take a ride on the carriage without a log and without the saw running. Tracks can also go out of alignment. If there is a hook in it, it will cause the log to rub against the saw. That causes heat.

Jeff · May 13, 2011, 07:04:12 PM

Quote from: Ron Wenrich on May 13, 2011, 06:19:33 PM
Now we're talking about a horse of a different color.

It certainly is. Totally different. The guy may have just been having trouble and doing things to try and figure it out, although it still was not a good solution, at least its now obvious he was not trying to harm the saw, but to figure it out and help it.

hicks · May 13, 2011, 07:56:05 PM

again sorry for my mis info. I talked to my uncle and when he said heating it up my mind went to fire. My uncle explained to me that the sawyer was running logs through and pulling the log into the saw to generate heat. He said putting side pressure onthe saw. He thinks this could cause damaging heat by putting pressure on that much surface area. He also cannot think of why a person would do that to a saw that was just hammered, when he knew it was getting worked on the next day. Why didn't he wait or at least tell someone his plans. I don't get that part. He raised too much suspision.

Would what he was doing take the tension out?

Thank you Ron for the manual. I'll print of copies for future use.

357blacksmith · May 13, 2011, 08:59:43 PM

Hammering on a piece of cold steel changes its crystal structure and thus its properties (making it brittle). Evenly heating to a high temp.( e.g. cherry red) will re-align the crystal to a uniform structure. This is a very precise process (quenching then tempering at specific temperatures depending on the metal and intended use). Trying this as described above will most likely weaken the temper, soften the blade (dull quicker), possibly deform the blade (irregular cuts) or worse, possibly cause microscopic fractures with a catastophic outcome. I dont think I would trust that guy with a flat-head screwdriver. I've seen metal fracture too many times from improper heating/quenching/tempering. Just my 2cents.

weisyboy · May 13, 2011, 10:20:58 PM

so he was cutting logs but pulling them hard against the saw causing it to heat up, and then running watter in it to try and keep it cool so as not to ruin the tention?

if that is the case maby the lead, set, sharpening of the saw was out causing it to cut accross to one side and he thaught by pushing it hard across he could counteract this? when he realised what he was doing was overheating the blade he was trying to keep it cool with watter?

i would suspect he was trying to solve the probelm or work out what was wrong himself, not trying to ruin anything.

he has gone about it the wrong way but maby he didnt know any better, iv seen blokes break/ruin all kinds of things because they thought they knew how to fix it.

i would be giving him a good blasting and making sure he knows he has done the wrong thing. but its not sompthing i would fire someone over, unless they did it again or had done it before and been told not to.

Mooseherder · May 13, 2011, 11:16:39 PM

There is probably a whole lot more to the story than meets the saw blade eh?
Sounds like sumpthins been building other than lumber.

tyb525 · May 13, 2011, 11:30:29 PM

Before I jump to the conclusion of wrongdoing, it sounds like the saw came back from the saw doc and it didn't cut right. It pulled to one side or the other, heating the saw. The sawyer was trying to make it cut straight/keep it from overheating and ruining the saw.

The drinking on the job thing is unfortunate, however it may have been an isolated incident, not part of a scheme to ruin the mill.

hicks · May 13, 2011, 11:59:42 PM

From what I gathered he was trying to compensate for the mill by manipulating the saw. He was trying to be a hero and "get it going". Instead of fixing the mill. I do believe there is more going on than I know. I m not there to be a witness so I get it second hand. I just wanted to get some feedback from experienced people like yourselves.