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Do I need a CDL to haul my own stuff?

Started by Greyman, January 04, 2019, 09:49:06 PM

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SawyerTed

I've been going through the same decision making and have had questions similar to the original post.

For NC the wording pretty much follows the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration's wording on what constitutes a "commercial vehicle."  It boils down to the weight.  Over 10,000 pounds GVWR is a commercial vehicle.  Over 26,000 pounds combined GVWR requires a CDL.  Use of the vehicle as private not for hire doesn't matter.  Weight is the determining factor.  Some exceptions for RVs, farm use and transporting horses occasionally are in place.

Turns out for my business in NC  I have to have a USDOT # but no CDL because my combination is less than 26,000#. Because of weight, NC requires a commercial insurance policy and $750,000 minimum coverage.  My truck and sawmill combo is in the neighborhood of 14,000#.

I have one neighbor who is a DMV officer and one who is a retired colonel from DMV.  Their advice has been invaluable.

I encourage anybody with questions to consult with their state agency that regulates trucking.
Woodmizer LT50, WM BMS 250, WM BMT 250, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Greyman

After looking into my truck specs more closely, and finally catching on to the difference between combined GVWR and GCWR (truck GVWR + trailer GVWR, versus combined rating for the vehicle) and other info, I think I'm ok.  The GVWR on the door jamb says 15,000 lbs.  Therefore, as long as the GVWR of the trailer is 11,000 lbs or less I'll be under the 26,000 lb limit.  That's all the law cares about from what I can tell - the combined GVWR (not the GCWR, which isn't labeled on the truck).  

I assume that at a scale they measure the total combined weight and make sure that's under the combined GVWR, is that correct?  I wouldn't imagine they would have you drop the trailer and weigh truck and trailer separately.

A GCWR is not shown on the truck, but per the 2004 Ford towing guide, it is 26,000 lbs.  The towing capacity of 21,400 lbs I mentioned in the OP was incorrect, it is actually 18,100 lbs for mine, and is just the GCWR minus the empty truck weight.  Towing that much would put it above the 26,001 lb combined GVWR though (15k+18.1k), so that would be a Class A load.

So, I would definitely like to haul more on a trailer but I think I can make it work by putting more on the truck flatbed.  My heaviest item is about 9,000 lbs which is a little above a 11,000 lb GVWR trailer rating.  I would definitely be below the combined GVWR though, so my only risk is if on that one load they made me weigh the trailer by itself.

Sorry for the confusion, but it's been a good discussion and I know it will come up again.

Dave Shepard

When classifying a truck, it's the tags on truck and trailer that determine if you are cdl or not. If the single or combo is over 26,000, then you need a cdl, even if the truck and trailer scale less than 26,000 at the time. I think under federal regs, you should be under cdl with 15,000 and 11,000, although I'd find a trailer that was 10,900, just to give yourself a margin.
Wood-Mizer LT40HDD51-WR Wireless, Kubota L48, Honda Rincon 650, TJ208 G-S, and a 60"LogRite!

Southside

A scale is going to weight two things, your gross weight, and the weight of each axle, so you also need to know the weight rating of your axles and not exceed those either, they will weight that at the same time while the truck and trailer are hooked together.  

Trying to understand a part of what you are stating here.  Your heaviest item is 9,000 lbs.  Is that just the piece of equipment?  If so then lets look at the math.  The truck probably weighs in the range of 7,000 lbs depending on the cab configuration etc.  My '06 3500 is around 7,500 lbs with 90 gallons of fuel in the bed tank for reference.  9,000 + 7,000 = 16,000.  What does the trailer alone weigh?  I have a 10 ton, 20' long gooseneck PJ dump trailer that is 8,000 lbs.  So in that case you would gross 24,000 and be under the CDL weight, as long as the two axles on your truck don't weigh 15,001 lbs and neither axle is over the rating for it individually, we have all seen a bumper pull RV behind a half ton pickup with the headlights pointing up at a 45° angle for an example.  Your trailer axles, along with all tires, and wheels will also have a weight rating and you can't exceed those either.  

At 24,000 lbs you have exactly 2,000 lbs to play with for "stuff" that goes along for the ride - oh and don't forget to secure your cargo at each corner and any blades or other accessories with the properly rated and stamped binders and chains.  

I would not say you are playing with fire, but it might be getting dry and warm around ya with this set up.   
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

If you have a 10k and up rated trailer then you need to keep your truck plated below 26k.  That was part of what NY got me on.  

Tennessee is an ag state, we dont even need plates on most personal trailers and lots of stuff is farm so all gvw is put on the power unit and that does not make it CDL.  I had a 38k plate on my 23k truck.  I could be pulling hay in tennessee at 35k with no CDL for instance.  NY said nope. 38k plate makes it a 38k truck, so truck itself required CDL B and over 10k trailer bumped it to CDL A.  Once impounded i had to get a CDL B licensed stranger to drive the truck out for me, they wouldnt release my trailer.  NY looks at the gvwr weight, the registered weight and the actual scaled weight. They use the highest of those 3 numbers to decide what license u need.  I hear PA does too but never had issues there.

If i had a 26k plate and a 7500# car trailer it woulda been a class D rig in NY that day.  
Praise The Lord

Kindlinmaker

I am going thru this in NY now. I am a resident and have an F550. I have a 6T dump trailer I use to move logs and equipment for personal use only.   The standard F550 max GCVW specifies by Ford is 26,000. I was confused by the regs
If you think the boards are twisted, wait until you meet the sawyer!

Kindlinmaker

(Pushed the wrong button - to continue). NY DMV has a help line so I asked them to clarify the rule. Their answer was simple. Truck GVW + trailer GVW = GCVW license requirement. It doesn't matter what the manufacturer sets as a GCVW. I am in the middle of getting a CDL. 

I will defend the NY troopers a bit.  Before I understood the regs, I blew a trailer tire right before the Thruway toll booth off I84 on a Sunday morning. Trooper helped me change the tire including busting the lugs loose, unloading my tractor to get to the spare, using the loader to lift the dump bed because of a fryed battery. Temp was high 80s and the whole process took over an hour.  Took my license and registration info for his log and never said a word about a CDL. Never lectured me about dry rotted tires that I should have replaced. Wished me a safe trip and I was on my way. That's the day I decided to stay and retire in the Hudson Valley. 
If you think the boards are twisted, wait until you meet the sawyer!

YellowHammer

I've been in the middle of this myself, and although I was legal in Alabama, and legal in Tn, as soon as I crossed state lines I went from state regs to Federal regs, towing an empty gooseneck with an empty pickup truck, and I was pulled over like I was the one of America's Most Wanted, lights on, while the State Trooper escorted to the nearest weigh station, and I was told although I had committed zero moving violations I was going to be there for awhile while the Trooper pulled out the "Multiple Ticket Form."  The tickets were bad, and cascaded to the extreme of not having road flares and reflective triangles, which of course I didn't because those are commercial requirements, and I was completely legal until I crossed the six inches of state line.

Did I mention I got the tickets while completely unloaded?  It all came down to the stickers on the trailer and the truck.

When I went to pay my tickets, I had gotten some of them removed or taken care of, I asked the county clerk how much the damage was because I figured  I needed to go to the bank and get some serious cash.  The clerk pointed to a sign on the wall that said although they don't take personal checks, they did accept business checks.  I replied, "I'm sure you do..."

I am now completely legal now, but it doesn't come cheap.  Within 18 months, I had a state trooper/DOT audit, no problems.  
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Southside

You mention the fire extinguisher and triangles, another one that is a favorite is not having spare fuses - yup that can be a ticket.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

mike_belben

Ive had lots of very nice trooper encounters and dont mean to paint them all bad, im on their side and am always polite/respectful with them. Its the crook in a badge who is getting a kickback from your $900 tow and $2100 month long storage bill while they "investigate" that you need to be aware of.  Basically pirates preying on trucks.  I landed in the worst case scenario and have withheld most of the ugly details here.  But theyre out there and looking for a nice guy like you to extort.
Praise The Lord

YellowHammer

Quote from: Southside logger on January 06, 2019, 09:37:45 AM
You mention the fire extinguisher and triangles, another one that is a favorite is not having spare fuses - yup that can be a ticket.  
Yup, it was, and I got that one too.  
I also had THREE bark chips on my flatbed, it was an Unsecured Load violation, I solved that by putting them into my pocket.
I didn't have the emergency trailer brake cable hooked to the truck frame, but had it hooked to the hook that hooks to the bed frame.  That was an "Out of Service" ticket, I remedied on the spot.

I didn't have an annual DOT inspection certificate for both truck and trailer, that was a $250 ticket.

I didn't have a DOT sign on the door, that was a ticket.

I didn't have a DOT number, that was a ticket.

I din't have a logbook, it was almost a ticket a ticket except I was within 150 air miles of my house.

I did have a medical card, as required by my insurance for my truck, but didn't have it with me, it was in a file folder at home, that was a $250 ticket I was able to clear when I went to the courthouse.

As said, I got a violation for no triangles and another violation for no flares.

I got lots more verbal warnings and finally said, "Hey, I was legal in Alabama, legal in TN, so I didn't know I needed all this as soon as I crossed state lines (Interstate vs Intrastate), so I don't have any of it."

On the ticket it said I had to remedy the violations within two weeks or I would get additional fines of $1,000 per day, if I remember correctly.

I drove home, stopped my life, and got as much taken care of as possible to reduce the mega tickets.  I finally got it all under a thousand bucks.

I also hired a CDL/DOT company who walked me through the whole FMCSA (Federal Motor Carrier Safety Association) process, and paid them some more money to get my files in order.

I also now have to pay federal road taxes because I cross state lines.

Going commercial is not a trivial consideration.  There is a lot to do and the penalties are significant.  

I got my world in order, and passed my audit.

The one phrase I kept hearing through this whole process was "Ignorance is No Excuse."
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

terrifictimbersllc

Quote from: YellowHammer on January 06, 2019, 01:35:48 PMGoing commercial is not a trivial consideration.  There is a lot to do and the penalties are significant.
Can also say..."crossing a state line is not a trivial consideration. " 

Over 10000 pounds combined GVWR + in business + crossing state line = become subject to federal (USDOT, FMCSA) code.

DJ Hoover, Terrific Timbers LLC,  Mystic CT Woodmizer Million Board Foot Club member. 2019 LT70 Super Wide 55 Yanmar,  LogRite fetching arch, WM BMS250 sharpener/BMT250 setter.  2001 F350 7.3L PSD 6 spd manual ZF 4x4 Crew Cab Long Bed

Greyman

Ugh, I typed this all out yesterday but apparently the interwebs ate my post...

The requirement is below in flowchart format (from the Texas handbook).  I think I have my situation figured out pretty well - I can do what I need to do without a CDL, though one load will be marginal.  I'll be moving up to Idaho over the next few years, by the way - 35-40k of equipment.  Not having a CDL means 4-5 hauling trips instead of 3 with a big trailer but that's not really a problem for me.  Here's my numbers that comply with CDL requirements:
Truck:  15,000 lbs GVWR - 8,500 lbs weight = 6,500 lbs payload capacity
Trailer:  11,000 lbs GVWR trailer - 2490 lbs weight = 8,510 lbs payload capacity   (bumper pull)

The heaviest piece is about 8,800 lbs (pic below), but if I have to I can remove the snowplow which weighs about 1,000 lbs and put it on the truck bed.  That's if the guy I bought it from has equipment to hoist it, which I think he does.   Using a bumper pull allows me to use more of the truck bed and some of the truck's GVWR.  While the truck manufacturer accounts for increased towing capacity with an empty truck, the law does not.

This depends on finding an 11k trailer.  The only one I've found so far is made in Michigan but still looking.  There are quite a few 10.4k trailers around but the 11k gives about 500 lbs more payload which would be handy.  I need a new one anyway as mine is only 6k.  Note that an overweight trailer gets a fine of around $50-$150 and you can keep going (from what I've read, at least up to 1,000 lbs or so), but an overweight truck or over-GVWR combo and you're not going anywhere.

To summarize what I've learned, and has been posted by others - there are two separate things you need to keep in mind:  
1) Combined GVWR (empty or not) - the combined GVWR rating of truck and trailer must be below 26,001 lbs for non-CDL and per flow chart.  Note that if you have a vehicle that can handle it, you can tow more than 10k if you have a truck with a low GVWR.  I don't think you'll find that with a typical truck, it would be a specialty towing vehicle.
2)  Weighing - if you get weighed you must be within the individual GVWR of truck and trailer, and also within the GAWR (axle rating) of both (e.g. 4 axles for a truck with tandem trailer).  Trailers have identical axles so weight distribution could bite you here if you're pushing the maximum.

It sounds like some get hit with #1, others with #2 (literally... lol).  

Also, the lowest GVWR gooseneck I've seen is 14k, so it would be tough if not impossible to find a gooseneck combination that would be non-CDL for any truck these days.  I'm sure that's a huge red flag for the Hwy Patrol.




 






 

square1

"Trailer:  11,000 lbs GVWR trailer - 2490 lbs weight = 8,510 lbs payload capacity   (bumper pull)

The heaviest piece is about 8,800 lbs (pic below), but if I have to I can remove the snowplow which weighs about 1,000 lbs and put it on the truck bed."


An old trucker told me (as I was fussing with a calculator trying to maximize trailer capacity) don't forget to factor ~10% of the trailer & load is transferred to the truck if you get the hitch weighted properly.

I don't think you have to pull the blade.

Southside

A lot of trailer manufacturers put cheap, junk tires on their trailers. I have found a world of difference running 14 ply trailer tires and keeping them at 100 PSI, especially if you are going to be right at your max load it might prevent roadside issues. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

Resonator

Quotedon't forget to factor ~10% of the trailer & load is transferred to the truck if you get the hitch weighted properly.
You will want to get your empty weight of truck and trailer with a full fuel tank. Then when you are loaded, reweigh to get your gross, and get your individual axle weights (steer, drive, and trailer). WHERE you place the load on the trailer (front to back) will determine how much weight is on the drive axle or trailer axles. (Nice Unimog, a guy could move some snow with that!)
Under bark there's boards and beams, somewhere in between.
Cuttin' while its green, through a steady sawdust stream.
I'm chasing the sawdust dream.

Proud owner of a Wood-Mizer 2017 LT28G19

YellowHammer

You can derate a trailer to get it where you want it.  Although I have not actually done it, I have contacted all involved parties about the process, including the Al State Troopers.

Its easy if buying a new trailer, the authorized dealer, who doesn't actually get a title with the trailer (they get a dealer exemption) can request a new derated title from the manufacturer.  As long as the trailer has not been modified, and is still new, i.e. still on the dealer's lot, without the title paperwork filled out, they call up the manufacturer, tell them what you want as a rating, and the manaufacturer will issue a new rating sticker which is sent to the dealer, is given to you, and which you stick on the trailer, and take to the county license department where they will register it and issue you a tag.  This only works with a new trailer since the manufacturer can set their weight limits to anything under the axle capacities, for which most trailers are sized.

If a trailer is already titled, then it become harder.  In Alabama, I must got to the license department and request and be issued a modified registration and license with the derated trailer weight.  They will then issue the tag.  However, just getting a lower rated tag won't satisfy the State Troopers, as I've asked them about it, they will still go by the trailer rating sticker on the trailer no matter what the tag says.  So the next step is to call up the trailer manufacturer, and send then a copy of the derated license registration and tag.  They will issue a new trailer sticker that will replace the one on the trailer.  Then depending on the state, all that goes into requesting an adjustment to the title (if your trailer title lists the rating). 

Derating a gooseneck is the same as derating a bumber pull.  If the sticker is simply removed (don't do that) the trooper will crawl under the trailer, check the axle ratings, and set the trailer ratings on that.

By far the easiest way to derate a trailer is at the dealer when buying a new one.  It will take about a week to get the derate paperwork back from the manufacturer.

I personally have PJ Trailers, and these are they steps they confirmed they will follow.  Also, I have talked to a local trailer manufacturer, and they also said they would issue a derated trailer sticker if a customer asked for it with a new trailer.  

A derated trailer can be a problem when it comes time to sell it, but from a $$ to $$ standpoint, the cost of a CDL will probably overcome any loss of value to the trailer.

Here's another personal example the happened to me.  Before I knew anything about this, I had bought a standard double axle, double tired gooseneck, rated at 25,000 lbs.  I didn't even bother really looking at the rating, just liked the look of the trailer.  After a "conversation" with a state trooper, and eventual further conversation all the way up the line to the top trooper in Alabama, he said "If my boys stop you and you are pulling that trailer with your truck and no CDL, your will be getting enough tickets to where you will have to sell the trailer to pay for them."  So I took that to heart, and downtraded that trailer to a lower rated model to get me within regs.  End of story, or so I thought.  Several years later, last July, I get a call out of the blue from a guy in Chattanooga, long way from me, who had bought the trailer from the dealer who I traded with, was using it to haul his landscaping equipment, and had been pulled over and given a knee buster ticket.  He was looking to see if I had a copy of my old title, as he had lost his, big Oops, and told me that his trailer had been taken out of service and all he had now was an $8,000 lawn ornament until he got things fixed.


YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

Southside

Check the hitch rating and the stinger on your truck if you go with a bumper pull that heavy, most are maxed at 10K. 

I have a friend who just bought a Dodge 4500 and was planning to pull his mini excavator with it on a bumper pull that is heavy enough, but the fancy built in hitch is only 10K rated, so now he has a problem. 
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

scsmith42

Quote from: Greyman on January 07, 2019, 02:09:16 AM
Ugh, I typed this all out yesterday but apparently the interwebs ate my post...

The requirement is below in flowchart format (from the Texas handbook).  I think I have my situation figured out pretty well - I can do what I need to do without a CDL, though one load will be marginal.  I'll be moving up to Idaho over the next few years, by the way - 35-40k of equipment.  Not having a CDL means 4-5 hauling trips instead of 3 with a big trailer but that's not really a problem for me.  Here's my numbers that comply with CDL requirements:
Truck:  15,000 lbs GVWR - 8,500 lbs weight = 6,500 lbs payload capacity
Trailer:  11,000 lbs GVWR trailer - 2490 lbs weight = 8,510 lbs payload capacity   (bumper pull)

The heaviest piece is about 8,800 lbs (pic below), but if I have to I can remove the snowplow which weighs about 1,000 lbs and put it on the truck bed.  That's if the guy I bought it from has equipment to hoist it, which I think he does.   Using a bumper pull allows me to use more of the truck bed and some of the truck's GVWR.  While the truck manufacturer accounts for increased towing capacity with an empty truck, the law does not.

This depends on finding an 11k trailer.  The only one I've found so far is made in Michigan but still looking.  There are quite a few 10.4k trailers around but the 11k gives about 500 lbs more payload which would be handy.  I need a new one anyway as mine is only 6k.  Note that an overweight trailer gets a fine of around $50-$150 and you can keep going (from what I've read, at least up to 1,000 lbs or so), but an overweight truck or over-GVWR combo and you're not going anywhere.

To summarize what I've learned, and has been posted by others - there are two separate things you need to keep in mind:  
1) Combined GVWR (empty or not) - the combined GVWR rating of truck and trailer must be below 26,001 lbs for non-CDL and per flow chart.  Note that if you have a vehicle that can handle it, you can tow more than 10k if you have a truck with a low GVWR.  I don't think you'll find that with a typical truck, it would be a specialty towing vehicle.
2)  Weighing - if you get weighed you must be within the individual GVWR of truck and trailer, and also within the GAWR (axle rating) of both (e.g. 4 axles for a truck with tandem trailer).  Trailers have identical axles so weight distribution could bite you here if you're pushing the maximum.

It sounds like some get hit with #1, others with #2 (literally... lol).  

Also, the lowest GVWR gooseneck I've seen is 14k, so it would be tough if not impossible to find a gooseneck combination that would be non-CDL for any truck these days.  I'm sure that's a huge red flag for the Hwy Patrol.




 







Greyman, according to the chart that you posted above (and per NC regulations), if your trailer is rated at 10K lbs or more, you have to have a Class A license.
Keep in mind that a CDL is an overlay on top of Class A, B, etc state licenses.  For a farmer (such as myself), I am exempt from having a CDL if I am on farm related business and within 150 miles of my farm, but I still have to have a Class A license if I'm plated for 26,001 lbs or greater, AND/OR am pulling a trailer that is rated for 10,001 lbs or more.
If I were you, I'd get a Class A license.  You can argue that you don't need CDL since you're not towing commercially, but under the weights that you posted you are still required to have a Class A license.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

Greyman

scsmith42 - the NC manual is the same as Texas, it says you must have a CDL for "A combination vehicle with a GCWR of 26,0001 lbs or more, provided the GVWR of the vehicle being towed is in excess of 10,000 lbs."   It took me a while to understand that distinction - it's non-CDL to pull a 15k GVWR trailer if your vehicle is rated at 11k or less, for example.  If you have a 40k GVWR truck you could get a Class B instead of Class A to pull a trailer less than 10,000 lbs.

Southside - yes, trying to track down the flatbed bumper pull rating but all the numbers are worn off.

YellowHammer - I had thought about derating also, thanks for the info on dealers working with that and the tip on getting it derated before buying it!

mike_belben

An 11k truck and a 15k trailer might be legal empty.  But youre just towing a bunch of useless trailer because the payload thats left between your curbweight and 26k doesnt need but a car trailer.  I did what youre doing, still am.  

Either steer clear of CDL or dive all the way in.  The middle ground is no mans land.  The tags and math interpretations wont matter when you hit 26001 on the portable scale.  Medium duty under CDL stuff is just too heavy before you even load it.

Praise The Lord

Southside

Quote from: Greyman on January 07, 2019, 02:09:16 AMNote that an overweight trailer gets a fine of around $50-$150 and you can keep going


Umm - not sure about that one.  If your trailer is overwight and you are not over gross, then your trailer has at least one over axle violation, and those tickets are expensive, they are based on % over, and if I remember correctly 10% or more becomes a "gross" violation so the fines go up significantly, and are always an out of service, fix the problem before you continue on matter.  Since they are % based a lighter axle capacity gets you in more trouble faster.  
Franklin buncher and skidder
JD Processor
Woodmizer LT Super 70 and LT35 sawmill, KD250 kiln, BMS 250 sharpener and setter
Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.
White Oak Meadows

thecfarm

What a DanG hassle to haul something!!!! :o  ::)
Model 6020-20hp Manual Thomas bandsaw,TC40A 4wd 40 hp New Holland tractor, 450 Norse Winch, Heatmor 400 OWB,YCC 1978-79

sawguy21

It is a nightmare.:( I can have a GCWR up to 12,500 kg and be legal with my standard class 5 licence as long as the trailer is under 4600 kg (10,000 lb), anything over that requires a cdl. I can get a special endorsement 7 which allows a non air brake equipped trailer of any weight but limits me to a two axle tow vehicle. A special endorsement 20 allows a travel trailer or recreational 5th wheel over 4600, still a 2 axle tow vehicle, which seems silly but I would not be subject to commercial vehicle regulations. If I get the fiver I want I will need it, the other option is a class 1 but I can't pass the medical and it's overkill for my needs.
As some of you have discovered, enforcement is swift and severe. A retired truck cop I am acquainted with takes great delight telling tales of being a pita.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

YellowHammer

Also, but it hasn't been mentioned, if your truck, or truck and trailer, exceeds only 10,000 lbs rated weight, (any one ton pickup exceeds this) and you cross state lines for business, you absolutely must have a DOT number, although you won't need a CDL until 26,000 lbs.  

To make it worse, some states have adopted the federal regs and require you to have a DOT number intrastate, if you are rated at more than 10,000 lbs.  

So the magic numbers are when crossing state lines, 10,000 lbs need DOT number and 26,000 lbs, need a CDL.  If over 10,000 lbs in some states need a DOT number, some don't require it until 26,000 lbs.
YellowHammerisms:

Take steps to save steps.

If it won't roll, its not a log; it's still a tree.  Sawmills cut logs, not trees.

Kiln drying wood: When the cookies are burned, they're burned, and you can't fix them.

Sawing is fun for the first couple million boards.

Be smarter than the sawdust

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