Hickory, but what kind?

[Peacock]

I've got a half dozen of these along my drive.  Ranging from 3" to 12" and all within 30' of each other.  I've studied them the last few years and compared to my tree id book to no avail.  They just don't really match up with anything I can find.

  

  

  

 

[Peacock]

My inclination is that it's pignut.  I don't have any pics of the final leaves or any of the nuts fully intact either. 

[Al_Smith]

That would be my guess also .Pignut ,bitter nut ,smooth bark hickory depending on the local lingo .

The local sawmill guys claim it makes the best lumber of the hickories in this area .

[colincb183]

Not bitternut, not like any I've ever seen, so i think you could rule that one out. I think pignut would be a pretty good guess

[mesquite buckeye]

Right. The bark is all wrong. Bitternut is somewhat reminiscent of walnut at first glance. Also, the husks tend to hang on tight to the nuts.

[Dodgy Loner]

I also think it's pignut hickory. Some folks split out red hickory as well, but they tend to integrade. When the leave are fully mature, look for fine hairs on the undersides of the leaves. If there are none, then it's pignut. Most hickories have them.

[SwampDonkey]

Looks like pignut that I once had the privilege to pick down in Va. ;D

[clww]

That's what I'm thinking, too, SD. I have some on my land at the cabin.

[WDH]

I am with Dodgy.  I learned "red hickory" as a separate species, but it has now been lumped in with pignut.  So now, it is just a scaly version of pignut. 

[Peacock]

Thanks guys!

Another question...I've got a very large shagbark hickory on my property with no new growth anywhere to be found.  Is this normal?  Do hickory trees require cross pollination to produce fertile fruit?  I'd really like to continue the big guy's(or girl's) legacy.

[SwampDonkey]

They have both male and female flowers on same tree like butternut and walnut.

[mesquite buckeye]

Thanks guys!

Another question...I've got a very large shagbark hickory on my property with no new growth anywhere to be found.  Is this normal?  Do hickory trees require cross pollination to produce fertile fruit?  I'd really like to continue the big guy's(or girl's) legacy.

No new growth meaning no fruit growth, or no growth at all? ??? ???

Lots of fruit and nut trees alternate bear, or just infrequently bear fruit, especially in the forest under light competition. So to not have fruit in a given year doesn't mean it wouldn't fruit at some time if the tree is heathy.

If the tree is not growing at all, it is on the way out and would best be harvested unless you are attached emotionally. :'(      8) 8) 8)

[Peacock]

The tree produces nuts by the thousand it seems.  The whole tree seems to be in perfect health.  Really has great form and is around 100' tall with a 60-70' spread. 

Just that none of the nuts are making it into little trees.  Maybe I ought to steal some of the nuts before they rot or the squirrels bury them to try growing them myself.

[mesquite buckeye]

Right. The squirrels know the difference between a good nut and a pop (empty). They also can tell if the nut is wormy. If you wait long, they will disappear all the good nuts. If you plant them in the fall they should come up the following spring.8) 8) 8)

If this is a really old tree, its children are all around it. Look carefully and you may notice the family resemblance. ;D

[Peacock]

Right. The squirrels know the difference between a good nut and a pop (empty). They also can tell if the nut is wormy. If you wait long, they will disappear all the good nuts. If you plant them in the fall they should come up the following spring.8) 8) 8)

If this is a really old tree, its children are all around it. Look carefully and you may notice the family resemblance. ;D

Not another hickory anywhere around it.  Just sugar maple, ash, hornbeam, walnut and cherry. 

In fact, other than the small stand of pignut hickories, there isn't more than 5 hickory trees I've found on the entire 200ac that we live on.  It's weird because they seem to thrive in other parts of the immediate vicinity. 

[mesquite buckeye]

Maybe different dirt, water issues like drainage or droughty, too dark to support seedlings? I would check the understory. You may have some itty bitty ones growing there. Has the area near it been thinned at all?
From the sound of this, maybe not a great site for shagbark. Thing is, there is that big one.

From your list walnut and cherry are intolerants, won't establish if it is too dark. Hickory is an intermediate-somewhat tolerant of shade and maple is very tolerant of shade. If there is a lot of maple the woods will get so dark that the intolerants won't be able to establish.

Here is my guess: your woods grew up as a relatively even aged stand consisting of walnut, cherry and a few hickories, possibly including some maple in the original stand. This original stand could have resulted from old field succession, a major timber harvest or a big blowdown. As time went by the stand density, combined with the presence of maple as a forest darkener has restricted the recruitment of the intolerant species.

So, another question for you. Do you see advance reproduction (little trees in the understory) of either cherry or walnut? If they are largely missing, there is your answer.

If you need hickories, I've got thousands next door in Missouri. ;D

[Peacock]

Maybe different dirt, water issues like drainage or droughty, too dark to support seedlings? I would check the understory. You may have some itty bitty ones growing there. Has the area near it been thinned at all?
From the sound of this, maybe not a great site for shagbark. Thing is, there is that big one.

From your list walnut and cherry are intolerants, won't establish if it is too dark. Hickory is an intermediate-somewhat tolerant of shade and maple is very tolerant of shade. If there is a lot of maple the woods will get so dark that the intolerants won't be able to establish.

Here is my guess: your woods grew up as a relatively even aged stand consisting of walnut, cherry and a few hickories, possibly including some maple in the original stand. This original stand could have resulted from old field succession, a major timber harvest or a big blowdown. As time went by the stand density, combined with the presence of maple as a forest darkener has restricted the recruitment of the intolerant species.

So, another question for you. Do you see advance reproduction (little trees in the understory) of either cherry or walnut? If they are largely missing, there is your answer.

If you need hickories, I've got thousands next door in Missouri. ;D

You seem to be exactly right.  I believe the area where the shagbark is growing was pasture.  The average tree size is around 12", while the shagbark is nearly 36" dbh.  The understory is nearly all sugar maple and ash.  Nearly all the cherry are either large or dying and the walnuts are nearly all in excess of 12' dbh.

Once I get the 17 transplants I've got right now dispatched to their final locations I just may hit you up for some hickories.

[mesquite buckeye]

Cool.

[mesquite buckeye]

The other giveaway for pasture succession to forest is the presence of wolf trees, trees of open grown form and unusually large size for the stand. I'm guessing your hickory is one of those. A lot of my woods is that way. I have killed a lot of the old wolf trees, except for some that were cool looking for landmarks. The better trees rapidly filled in the spaces opened.

[Peacock]

The other giveaway for pasture succession to forest is the presence of wolf trees, trees of open grown form and unusually large size for the stand. I'm guessing your hickory is one of those. A lot of my woods is that way. I have killed a lot of the old wolf trees, except for some that were cool looking for landmarks. The better trees rapidly filled in the spaces opened.

It is the only dominant tree in that area.  A few large sugar maples, but they have fairly small tops.  Most of that area could really benefit from thinning.

[mesquite buckeye]

More work and more wood for this fall. It is a shame to thin just as another year's growth is being accumulated at the start of the growing season.

[SwampDonkey]

Sugar maple can grow thick in number with small crowns. ;D

[Peacock]

Sugar maple can grow thick in number with small crowns. ;D

If they weren't such a pretty and useful tree I'd consider them invasive.

We've got a few that are over 40" dbh. 

[SwampDonkey]

Our hardwood forest up here is mostly sugar maple. Not much for oak and no hickory. We have lots of red maple to, but they are mostly a swamp tree or on ground that isn't going to make farm land.

[proteus]

Maybe different dirt, water issues like drainage or droughty, too dark to support seedlings? I would check the understory. You may have some itty bitty ones growing there. Has the area near it been thinned at all?
From the sound of this, maybe not a great site for shagbark. Thing is, there is that big one.

From your list walnut and cherry are intolerants, won't establish if it is too dark. Hickory is an intermediate-somewhat tolerant of shade and maple is very tolerant of shade. If there is a lot of maple the woods will get so dark that the intolerants won't be able to establish.

Here is my guess: your woods grew up as a relatively even aged stand consisting of walnut, cherry and a few hickories, possibly including some maple in the original stand. This original stand could have resulted from old field succession, a major timber harvest or a big blowdown. As time went by the stand density, combined with the presence of maple as a forest darkener has restricted the recruitment of the intolerant species.

So, another question for you. Do you see advance reproduction (little trees in the understory) of either cherry or walnut? If they are largely missing, there is your answer.

If you need hickories, I've got thousands next door in Missouri. ;D

You seem to be exactly right.  I believe the area where the shagbark is growing was pasture.  The average tree size is around 12", while the shagbark is nearly 36" dbh.  The understory is nearly all sugar maple and ash.  Nearly all the cherry are either large or dying and the walnuts are nearly all in excess of 12' dbh.

Once I get the 17 transplants I've got right now dispatched to their final locations I just may hit you up for some hickories.

So are 'SHAG HICKORY' and 'PIG NUT' the same tree. I have a half a dozen what I have been told were SHAG HICKORY trees on my property. They give nuts every other year like a BLACK WALNUT. Very good eating.