How to avoid nails

[sunriseseamless]

I was reading one of the other posts and the subject of nails came up.  Since I have yet to mill my first log, I had never considered this problem.  How does one avoid nails?  One sawyer mentioned a metal detector.  Is that a common practice?  Do they work deep into a log?  I plan on cutting up a tree that was from a back yard and I know there are two somethings because I can see some cloths line hanging out.  Would it be prudent to not use wood that was close to the ground, say 5-6 feet?  What's the damage to a blade when you hit a nail?  Resharpening, or replacing?

[LeeB]

Use a dull blade. A new one will find any tramp metal every time :D  Metal detectors work ok. If this treee was in a bck yard and has clothelines in it, you can bet there is more junk in there than that. Might not be worth it.

[Tom]

Yep, clothesline hanging out says a nail is in there somewhere and experience has shown me that nobody will use one when a half dozen will work.

The effort to salvage the wood is directly dependent on how valuable the wood. If you write off a new blade every time you hit metal (one nail can be hit 3 or 4 times) what is the wood worth?

Metal detectors work but are no guarantee.  Expect to spend $250 or more to get one worth while.  You will be looking at depths of 3" to 8" most of the time. 

[dad2nine]

Metal detectors don't work so good for pop bottles  >:( hit one of those in a crotch. Also in a crotch I found a single barrel carburetor (shade tree mechanic). Bought a top notch metal detector, only scans so deep (semi useful). Found all kinds of stuff in logs - nails, barbed wire, copper pipe, steel pipe, porcelain electrical wire insulators and electrical wire, both copper and aluminum, yep and even a rubber garden hose. I have yet to find a gold piece though or any old money  :D

I finally got fed up with log trash, so now I BUY yes BUY logs from logging companies. Guess what no more trash, only an occasional bullet which is lead and doesn't murder my blade and so far one razor tipped arrow head... Buying forest logs from someone who harvests trees for a living is the best way to go around here, they don't call it the dirty south for nothing... Anyways I feel a lot better now selling my lumber to folks. Just imagine what a little log trash will do to planner knifes and table saw blades, it could be down right dangerous...

Thanks

[DanG]

Welcome to the Forum, Sunrise!

Don't let nails discourage you.  They are a pain, to be sure, but they aren't a deal breaker.  I get almost all my logs from yards and city streets, and I hit some metal sometimes, but not enough to be a big problem.  Look at it this way;  If you saw urban wood, about one in ten will have metal in them.  Of those, you will find at least half with the metal detector, if you use one.  Of the ones you find with the saw, maybe half will destroy the blade, and the rest can be resharpened.  Of the half that get destroyed, half of them will have been about worn out anyway.  As I said, it's a big pain in the butt, but it ain't really that big of a deal.

[Tom]

I have been around a lot of derogatory comments about the south in my life, but I hadn't heard The Dirty South before.  It was bothering me a little, well, even more than a little, so I googled it up, not expecting to find anything.

Lo and behold, there it was.  Wiki called it an endearing.  I have problems with that.  What could be so endearing about being Dirty?

Further reading lead me to specific areas contained in the dirty south.  Among them are Dallas, Atlanta,Memphis, Jackson, Nashville, Houston, Shreveport, Orlando, Louisville, Tampa, Jacksonville, Austin, New Orleans, Miami, and San Antonio.  

Now, I don't think most of us would be proud of calling ourselves the Dirty South, so I read further and found that it came from Rap music out of the 1990's.  That explains it.  I wouldn't even stand close enough to a radio playing it to listen to it.  These so-called artists aren't a part of my society, never have been and never will be.  They might live in a Dirty South, but I don't .  You make your world be what you desire.  I want a world full of good, healthy, happy, educated people with the wisdom to recognize that they can do better and the wherewithall to do it.   Those folks are bound and determined to live in Government housing and complain of being put in jail when they break the law.  They want it all for nothing, don't stand for anything and spend their waking hours tearing down what it's taken several hundred years to build.

They might live in a dirty south, but I don't  I don't like that term and find it as derogatory as "Stupid Southerners".  Self deprecation is one thing. Self condemnation another.

[Firebass]

  As I said, it's a big pain in the butt, but it ain't really that big of a deal.

Hey DanG,
Dont you run a circle blade and if so.
Will a single nail normally put a carbide circle blade out of commission?    I know I sawed one of my log dogs off and I just touched it up and I've since sawed over 10,000 bf with the same blade.   I wasn't going very fast cuz I knew I was close.  OUCH. 

This being my 100th post, I'll surely be doomed for posting such statistics :D

Firebass

[LeeB]

Go Tom!!!!!

[WH_Conley]

Rap music and artists. Boy that is a contradiction of terms.

Course I noticed Tom put in the disclaimer of "so called".

We hear ya Tom, full steam ahead.

[brdmkr]

I have hit metal with my Lucas and sometimes nothing happens.  Maybe just a chipped tooth.  Maybe nothing at all.  I have also hit ONE PIECE of metal and destroyed every tooth AND chipped the blade itself.  Of course bigger metal is worse than small, but a 16 penny nail is big enough and that seems to be the metal of choice around here.  I also think the attack speed matters too.  It seems that if you are sawing slow, it does less damage.  I am not sure that would work the same with a band mill.  I could see where going fast might help with a band.

Regardless, I hate metal in logs (unless it is my saw ;D)

[Cedarman]

The only sound worse than the zing, zing, zing a blade makes after hitting a nail is the noise coming out of a radio when rap is being played.  It is banned from my hearing.

A good metal detector is invaluable when you suspect metal in a log.  You must know your detector and learn to listen for the faint sounds of deep metal.  Also wait until there is very little background noise, ear phones pay dividends too.   A detector is invaluable for finding a lost nut in the sawdust pile.  If it is next to the mill, scoop the sawdust away from metal in the mill and you can find anything metal that was dropped. 

If possible check the tree while standing.  This will let you check all around the tree.  It can help keep your chainsaw from hitting that low metal of a fence staple.

[bandmiller2]

I'am talking bandmill now.Nail damage depends on how you hit it,if hit at right angles and the nail not too big, little damage.If the band hits it parallel rides up on it that plays hobb.If you hit one at right angles stop and check for little curls of steel just below the cutting edge flip them off with your pocket knife.Of course oak will show blue discolor that will travel quite a ways, that will tip you off,  to hardware.After a wile you will just get a bad feeling about some logs from looking at the bark and where they came from.Frank C.

[mike_van]

The one with the clothesline hanging out - That'd be in my firewood pile. But, 15 years ago.................. :D

[Norm]

I saw mostly logs that are harvested by professional loggers and still get nails. I was driving into the town they are based out of and low and behold there they were taking down a big black walnut out of a side yard. I stopped and asked what they were going to do with it and sure enough it was going to market. Worried about nails guys, nope no staining in the log so no nails.  :D

[Ron Wenrich]

I only saw logs from loggers.  Very rare is the yard tree.  And yet, with a logger that has cut the tree, someone has bucked the tree, its gone through a debarker which will throw sparks when hitting metal, I still hit nails.  I've even saw stuff hanging out of trees where I asked the logger how he didn't tear his pants cutting it down.  I keep track of downtime, and it costs me about 1 weeks worth of work each year.

On a lot of trees, you'll see a place where the bark looks different.  The bark pattern will show that its healed around the nails.   Blue in a log is usually a sign, but coated nails no longer turn the wood blue. 

I'm running a circle mill.  I will not use carbide or chrome teeth.  Having an inserted tooth saw means that when I hit metal, at best I can keep on sawing.  At worst, I have to replace teeth.  I can file my saw in 5 minutes on a normal brush with nails.  Insulators means I just replace the bits. 

I've never used a metal detector.  But, logs that are veneer rejects nearly always have metal.  No blue and no metal detector.  So, it is possible to tell way before hand.  You just have to know what to look for, I guess.

[dad2nine]

I have been around a lot of derogatory comments about the south in my life, but I hadn't heard The Dirty South before.  It was bothering me a little, well, even more than a little, so I googled it up, not expecting to find anything.

Lo and behold, there it was.  Wiki called it an endearing.  I have problems with that.  What could be so endearing about being Dirty?

Further reading lead me to specific areas contained in the dirty south.  Among them are Dallas, Atlanta,Memphis, Jackson, Nashville, Houston, Shreveport, Orlando, Louisville, Tampa, Jacksonville, Austin, New Orleans, Miami, and San Antonio. 

Now, I don't think most of us would be proud of calling ourselves the Dirty South, so I read further and found that it came from Rap music out of the 1990's.  That explains it.  I wouldn't even stand close enough to a radio playing it to listen to it.  These so-called artists aren't a part of my society, never have been and never will be.  They might live in a Dirty South, but I don't .  You make your world be what you desire.  I want a world full of good, healthy, happy, educated people with the wisdom to recognize that they can do better and the wherewithall to do it.   Those folks are bound and determined to live in Government housing and complain of being put in jail when they break the law.  They want it all for nothing, don't stand for anything and spend their waking hours tearing down what it's taken several hundred years to build.

They might live in a dirty south, but I don't  I don't like that term and find it as derogatory as "Stupid Southerners".  Self deprecation is one thing. Self condemnation another.

Yep agree - but around here it's not only called the dirty south it's called the dirty dirty. Was wondering where that phrase came from...

Thanks

[Mr Mom]

   Dont buy a mill.
   If you all ready have a mill dont cut and logs.

   Man do i need a mill ;D ;D.
   Thanks alot Mr Mom

[Firebass]

I have hit metal with my Lucas and sometimes nothing happens.  Maybe just a chipped tooth.  Maybe nothing at all.  I have also hit ONE PIECE of metal and destroyed every tooth AND chipped the blade itself. 

Hi brdmkr,  You seem to be faily knowledgable about lucas blades.  I have a few questions that you may be able to help with.
Say you hit some trash and tear all the teeth off your blade.    Now you send your blade in for re-tip.  Do you have it hammered as well.  Is it common to hammer lucas 8" blades?  I've torchered my blade  and it still seems ok.  I guess they're fairly resistant to warpage.    Is it the kerf that gets larger that lets you know your blade needs hammering?

Thanks
Firebass

[DanG]

Firebass, I'm using Stellite teeth on my MD mill.  Typically, hitting a large nail will chip off the corner of one or two teeth.  Good sharp corners are essential to getting a clean cut with a circle mill, so I replace them.  I don't sharpen on the mill, so I usually replace the whole set and resharpen them later, culling out the chipped ones.  Frequently, I can match up a set of chipped ones and reuse them by shortening them a bit.  I try to keep the sets pretty closely matched.

A set of teeth for my six-tooth blades costs about the same as a band blade, but I rarely trash a whole set.  The most I ever lost on one hit was five...2 on the main and 3 on the edger.  That was a $20 hit.  I live in fear of wrecking the main blade itself, though.  That would be a $800 hit.

[Tom]

I want to say this about that.

When I hit metal with my band, I expect the worse.  Usually, if I was really in the groove and moving on, there will be 15 or 20 teeth stripped from the band, making it unusable.

Sometimes I can clean the softer metal of the nail off of the teeth and keep on going.  There will  be marks on the wood, but that's OK.  When this happens, the time it takes to set and go around the sharpener several times makes it questionable that the economy is there to do it.   I still do it and end up using the band for my own work.  Somehow, they seldom get back good enough to use on a customer's log again.

Every once in a while, I can salvage one.

So, when I hit a nail, I finish the cut and might make a few more cuts listening to the swish-swish until I can't stand it anymore. Then I put on a new blade.  I just chalk up a $20 bill when I here that zing. (even though the blade is still cutting, that swish tells you it is hammering your bearings)

The most economical way is to avoid the metal to begin with.  There are only two ways to do that.  One is for the nail to be exposed and for you to find it.   The other way is to invest in a metal detector.  Neither way is a guarantee. 

The worse I can do is destroy a band.  That's about $26 today if I hadn't gotten any use from it at all.
The worse a circle mill can do is destroy a shaft, though it's more common to destroy the blade.  That can run into Thousands of dollars.

I doubt that metal in a log would damage a chainsaw bar too much, so the max for them would be in the $20 to $50 range, depending on the length of the chain.

Measuring the scale of economy on all of them, I would favor the band if I knew I was going to be hitting metal big enough to do Maximum damage.

[Sparty]

Us folks in the "dirty south" of Michigan are called Trolls by the yoopers because we live under the bridge ;D. 

I look at nails this way....most of what I get sawn up are 24" to 40" walnut logs.  Some of them are yard trees.  Now if a metal detector goes off on these logs, am I going to throw them into the firewood pile?  Heck no!  I look for the obvious metal and otherwise saw away and pay the bill for wasted blades.  It all evens out.  Sometimes I cut thick stock from yard trees with the theory that I will hit less metal by making fewer cuts...but that doesn't help out the end user of the lumber.

[Corley5]

Us folks in the "dirty south" of Michigan are called Trolls by the yoopers because we live under the bridge ;D. 

You're called Fudgies by we Trolls who live closest to the Bridge  ;) ;D :D

[Tom Sawyer]

My personal opinion on metal detectors is that the time that it takes to scan a log and try to dig out any metal that you find is worth as much as or more than the cost of a blade (I have a band mill) if it is completely wrecked.  I find that at least 90% of the blades that hit metal are not completely wrecked and can be resharpened.  The only time that I scan with a metal detector is if I am resawing some salvaged timbers or something like that.

[Andy Harden]

What Tom said!

[Handy Andy]

  Tom, did you ever think of running for public office?  This country is way short of people who think like you and can articulate, especially in  government.