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Will this work?

Started by 101mph, January 19, 2015, 02:22:49 PM

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101mph

Guys,

Please forgive the hand drawn sketch. I hope you can make heads or tails from it.



I have a tree I need to fell and I have limited space for my anchor points. I will be using my Maasdam Rope Puller to do this.

My concern is if it's OK to anchor and pull on the same tree?

The anchor point on the "felling tree" will be several feet below where I will make my notch and back cut. So I'm thinking that should be pretty solid and it should be able to "tip over" the top half of the tree.

I'm sure there will be some flex in it but I'm hoping not enough to cause a problem. The other two trees will be connected to the main "pulling line" with a snatch block.

The goal here is to get this tree to fall right between these two  "anchor trees".

Do you think this will work?

Texas Ranger

Unless it goes side ways.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

mesquite buckeye

Puts you dead center in the danger zone when the tree starts to move. Don't ask me how I know this. ::)
Manage 80 acre tree farm in central Missouri and Mesquite timber and about a gozillion saguaros in Arizona.

beenthere

Should work as you have it planned.
Have your wedges in the back cut (two would be good) and have your escape route planned.
Don't cut through your hinge wood before applying the tension on your rope puller. All bets are off if you cut through your hinge wood.

And assumption is that you have strong enough rope, anchors, blocks to pull the tree over. Those things we cannot access from your drawing, nor can we tell the size of the tree and how much lean you are trying to overcome.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

101mph

For sure beenthere.

I always tension things up before I make my back cut. I don't think I will need a ton of force to get the tree over. It's about 14" diameter where I will make the notch.

I wonder lots of times if I should start the back cut first so I can get the wedges in there before I do the notch.

The tree does have some lean in the opposite direction of where I am pulling and wanting it to fall (side to side lean isn't much).

Would this be a situation to do the back cut first??

Sprucegum

Doing the back cut last gives you the advantage of all ready being on the back side of the tree when things start to move. I would just make sure the notch is no bigger than necessary and plunge cut for the wedges. Have fun  ;)

beenthere

I do the backcut first only on 6" diam trees (i.e tall spruce trees that are 6" or less) that have lean the opposite of fall that I want. Then real careful making the notch so the saw doesn't get trapped in the notch cut..

Don't think you will have any surprises from what I hear you sayin....notch about 3-4" deep, backcut to about 6" and place the wedge, put some tension on the rope sling, continue backcut to the hinge wood of at least 1".
Then should have saw out, and go ahead and crank it over.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Peter Drouin

Using rope is not a good thing. It will stretch or break when you need it the most. Use steel cable. And find a new anchor point to pull from. :)
A&P saw Mill LLC.
45' of Wood Mizer, cutting since 1987.
License NH softwood grader.

cutter88

I'm sure it would work well for you but If I Tryed that it would be just one huge mess lol
Romans 10 vs 9 
650G lgp Deere , 640D deere, 644B deere loader, 247B cat, 4290 spit fire , home made fire wood processor, 2008 dodge diesel  and a bunch of huskys and jonsereds (IN MEMORY OF BARRY ROGERSON)

101mph

Quote from: Peter Drouin on January 19, 2015, 06:18:36 PM
Using rope is not a good thing. It will stretch or break when you need it the most. Use steel cable. And find a new anchor point to pull from. :)

I was going to use chains for anchoring around the trees. The rope is rated for 6500# and the rope puller only goes to 1500# so I don't think I'll have to worry about breaking the rope.

It's been good so far, and I shouldn't need too much force to get it moving the way it needs to fall.

lopet

Quote from: Peter Drouin on January 19, 2015, 06:18:36 PM
Using rope is not a good thing. It will stretch or break when you need it the most. Use steel cable. And find a new anchor point to pull from. :)

I am with Peter on this one.  My concerns are also when something lets go, that snatch block will be coming towards you like a cannon ball.
Make sure you know how to fall properly when you fall and as to not hurt anyone around you.
Also remember, it's not the fall what hurts, its the sudden stop. !!

thenorthman

Done it works good.

Just make sure your anchor point on the tree to be fell isn't going to slip and get in the way.

If you can keep the puller as close to the fall tree as you can, that way its just a reach over and pull rather then walking into the danger zone...

Down side is that unless you have lots of rope the angles can be rather sharp putting more downward pressure than side pressure...

Remember to back it up with wedges, stack em if needed, ropes/cables are all fine and good to make less work smacking wedges, but they have a nasty habit of breaking when you need them, wedges may break but by then they are already stuck in the wood and doing their job.

Also put some tension on the puller before starting any cut, not much, just a little, keeps any sudden tension form possibly snapping your line. And if anything goes funky its less slack you have to make up for in a hurry.
well that didn't work

GAB

A few years back I cut a maple that was leaning towards the neighbor's power lines.
What I did was to start cutting the tree as high as I safely could and at a steep angle.  Went in some and drove in two steel wedges. cut some more and the added some wooden wedges as well as the steel ones and kept cutting and driving the wedges until I had it on the ground, approx. 180 degrees from where it was leaning originally.  I did not notch the tree as it was going into firewood any way.
Not knowing your situation or your intentions for the wood I do not know if this would work for you.  Also my tree was solid.  Good Luck.
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

beenthere

Quote from: GAB on January 20, 2015, 10:03:55 AM
A few years back I cut a maple that was leaning towards the neighbor's power lines.
What I did was to start cutting the tree as high as I safely could and at a steep angle.  Went in some and drove in two steel wedges. cut some more and the added some wooden wedges as well as the steel ones and kept cutting and driving the wedges until I had it on the ground, approx. 180 degrees from where it was leaning originally.  I did not notch the tree as it was going into firewood any way.
Not knowing your situation or your intentions for the wood I do not know if this would work for you.  Also my tree was solid.  Good Luck.
Gerald

That would be a very "iffy" technique and I'm thinking you were fortunate to get the tree down safely where you wanted it with that method.
1. Steep angle for a backcut isn't ideal for wedges to "lift" the backside.
2.  No hinge to hold the tree to the stump is not good practice.
3.  And no notch for the tree to fall free while the hinge holds the tree for the desired fall direction is the third no-no. 

Just sayin... so others don't get the idea it was a good way to do it. Not intended to diss you on this.
south central Wisconsin
It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

CX3

Your idea will work.  The only method to use will be the open face bore.  I would leave more hinge than necessary, especially until it lifts an inch or so, then you might thin the hinge a bit. 

I would not try this scenario on a heavy leaner,  it will only work if the weight is not more than 12 or so feet back lean.  Which in that case you should be able to lift it with wedges. 
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

CX3

Quote from: 101mph on January 19, 2015, 04:18:39 PM
For sure beenthere.

I always tension things up before I make my back cut. I don't think I will need a ton of force to get the tree over. It's about 14" diameter where I will make the notch.

I wonder lots of times if I should start the back cut first so I can get the wedges in there before I do the notch.

The tree does have some lean in the opposite direction of where I am pulling and wanting it to fall (side to side lean isn't much).

Would this be a situation to do the back cut first??



If the tree sets back before you get the wedge in, there is nothing wrong with boring the saw in a few inches in the back cut to make room for wedge
John 3:16
You Better Believe It!

GAB

beenthere: Thanks for your comments.
Gerald
W-M LT40HDD34, SLR, JD 420, JD 950w/loader and Woods backhoe, V3507 Fransguard winch, Cordwood Saw, 18' flat bed trailer, and other toys.

redprospector

Ok, this is my opinion, and that's all it is. But I believe that a forum on the internet is a very bad place to get advice on what will work to fell a tree, by (good) people who have never seen the tree in question. That being said.....
Your rigging will work in theory (if you do everything perfect), it seems a bit elaborate to me. But I'm not looking at the tree in person, so I may be missing something very important.
Why not tie your snatch block to one of the anchor trees for a solid mount, instead of on a rope between the two which will add a lot of stretch to the equation?
1996 Timber King B-20 with 14' extension, Morgan Mini Scragg Mill, Fastline Band Scragg Mill (project), 1973 JD 440-b skidder, 2008 Bobcat T-320 with buckets, grapple, auger, Tushogg mulching head, etc., 2006 Fecon FTX-90L with Bull Hog 74SS head, 1994 Vermeer 1250 BC Chipper. A bunch of chainsaws.

101mph

Quote from: redprospector on January 20, 2015, 11:38:36 PM
Why not tie your snatch block to one of the anchor trees for a solid mount, instead of on a rope between the two which will add a lot of stretch to the equation?

I was concerned with the fell tree hanging up on the anchor tree since it is only about 50' away. Even if I were to offset the snatch block with with a long chain to only one anchor point (like in a 90° directional pull). BTW I was planning on using chains to anchor the snatch block.

So I figured why not try two anchor points for the snatch block (to get it centered between the two trees better) and then have the last anchor point for the puller directly on the base of the tree where I'm sawing. I can be right there to crank on the puller without have to walk 50' to get to it. A lot more convenient but a lot more prep work.

As mentioned this is all theory. I still may go with one anchor point and rely on a carefully made notch to direct this tree between the other two (which is the main goal in all of this).

It is a back leaner (towards the cottage of course :-\) so I will definitely be using wedges and a bore cut while I put tension on the rope with the puller.

ohwc

It should.

Couple things.

Face cut first always. If you do not you run a big risk of losing the tree for several reasons. And possibly killing yourself.

  In order. Tension slightly. Face cut. Tension more to stand tree up. Bore cut leaving a good hinge. Wedge the bore cut from both sides, just snug them up good, be careful to not damage hinge. Use a step cut for the back cut. This is a three step back cut. Bore, wedge, step cut. Then pull it over. Hook your pull point to something besides the tree you are pulling on.

bill m

Be aware that using chains on your anchor trees could damage them.
NH tc55da Metavic 4x4 trailer Stihl and Husky saws

101mph

Just wanted to update this post.

The weather finally started to get better and I had the opportunity to finally tackle this tree. I decided not to get too cute with it (like I originally had drawn up) and only used one anchor point with a pulley (and strap) attached to one tree to make about a 75 degree angle on the pulling direction.

Here are a few pictures showing my rigging







Things went very well.

I had a decent amount of pulling force on the tree (but not too much) before I made my notch cut. While I was making the notch I was paying close attention and made sure I did not make the notch too deep. After making the notch I went back over to the rope puller and cranked it pretty good to straighten up the tree even more (btw this tree had about 12' of back lean towards the cottage so I really had the adrenaline going).

It still was leaning back quite a bit while I made my plunge cut. I left about 3" of hinge wood first, then cut back towards the back of the tree leaving about 2 inches of hold wood there. I got 2 wedges in there and pounded them in as tight as they would go. I then finished the hinge leaving about a good 2" there.

I went back of to the rope puller and gave several more good cranks. The tree looked to be finally starting to get vertical. I pounded the wedges in again as tight as they would go and then made my final back cut.

I finally heard some cracking and the tree started moving. It was going over perfectly in the direction I had intended, but then just started to slow down as the top was rubbing past the top of the tree next to it. I was expecting this so I was on my way over to the puller again to crank some more to keep it going, but it had enough momentum to get past this and finished going down on it's own.





My wife had some nice video of it and was really cool to watch it (she was out of breath she was so scared lol  :D). I was pretty pumped myself and felt really good to get this one down safely.

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

Straightgrain

Coming from a retired GI and wanna-be mini-logger.....

I see you want the felled tree to bed between the two anchor trees. If that is correct, I also see this working OK even without seeing the slope you are working on.

Question: will the felled tree snag in the limbs of the two anchor trees?

Make sure you do a good swamp-out below all 3 trees and remove all the rigging BEFORE you de-limb and buck the felled tree; and I don't ask me why I would bring that up either.... smiley_crying


You drop trees faster than I can read.... :D
"We fight for and against not men and things as they are, but for and against the caricatures we make of them". Joseph Schumpeter

101mph


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