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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: jemmy on August 29, 2018, 11:14:40 AM

Title: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on August 29, 2018, 11:14:40 AM
When I purchased this mill the previous owner had a 56" blade mounted. I don't want to mess up that blade in my learning curve so I swapped it out for a 48" blade. The issue is that I need to move the blade guide back and situate it on the 48" blade. How far onto the blade should the wooden guides be? I imagine the distance between the teeth and the pegs is the most important factor. If anyone can point me in the right direction that would be grand and glorious. Thank you for helping!

Don't worry, I will end up posting many more photos/videos once the weather is frigid but for now I will just be posting trouble shooting photo's. 
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/Sawmill_blade_guide_screen_shot.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1535553348)
 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on August 29, 2018, 11:38:33 AM
Guidepins should just clear your shanks.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: CCCLLC on August 29, 2018, 11:42:53 AM
Exactly like Jeff has said. Just under shanks at first available smooth surface. Control that cutting edge as close as possible.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on August 29, 2018, 12:17:03 PM
Awesome! Thank you Jeff and CCCLLC for the help!
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: dgdrls on August 29, 2018, 07:16:35 PM
Jemmy,  good evening.

Just a though, you're gonna want to know what the arbor RPM is geared at.
The saw speed (surface feet per minute) is going to change with the smaller saw
 and will probably not saw as well as it could unless you pick up the arbor RPM speed.

Let us know how u do,

best
D

Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on October 17, 2018, 11:21:49 PM
Ok, I was able to break the bolts that secured the guide pins, allowing me to move the pins to what I believe is the correct position for the new 48" blade. I have posted updated photos of the updated positioning. If you all could tell me what else needs to be address with the pins that would be great! My primary concern now is how plum the pins are and whether or not the distance (currently about 1/8" on each side), if there is even suppose to be any, between the pins and blade are appropriate. And despite these photos, I got the cable system hooked up and taught. So there is only two things left before testing the saw. These pins and I have a leak in the radiator :( ... But this has been two years in the making so I am pretty ecstatic, just need to figure these couple of issues. In regards to rim speed, I really have no idea how to calculate it. The power source is a 3-71 Detroit diesel with a standard transmission. The directions for cutting from the previous owner was "slam it into 2nd and bring it up until you hear the Detroit hum" hahaha, so not the most scientific fashion of distinguishing feed rates, rim speed etc. Any ideas on how to approach?  


 


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Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on October 18, 2018, 05:16:44 AM
Things may change with the distance on your guides when you start things up.  I always adjusted my pins on a running saw, but I wouldn't suggest that to someone without a bunch of experience around a running saw.  I'd loosen the pins up to see how the saw stands when its running.  Then shut it off and adjust until you get to where you can see daylight around the guides.  It may take a little bit of playing around with them to get them right.  

Get a digital tach to check your RPM.  They aren't very expensive.  There as some that are contact type.  Those you hold on the center of the shaft.  Others are non contact and are checked with a laser on a piece of reflective tape.  No need to get close to the spinning shafts.  Both will fit your needs.  The laser type are about $10 on Ebay.

Most mills of that era ran about 540 RPM.  When I was running diesels, they had a tach on them, and the throttle was set that it ran at a certain RPM.  These were industrial Detroits and didn't have a transmission.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on October 18, 2018, 07:58:21 AM
If you bring the engine speed up from idle, with the blade spinning, and at say half speed the saw starts to wobble, and slowly keep increasing speed until the saw runs flat, that is the hammered speed.    While sawing you cannot go below this speed. If you had the tach  described above, you could know this rpm when making this test.    What make is this sawmill?
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on October 19, 2018, 09:20:47 PM
Alrighty, well I will be doing some shopping on ebay for a tachometer. And in terms of RPMs is there such a thing as too fast? Obviously there is too fast for the Detroit. But once you exceed the hammered speed does the outside pin have the responsibility of keeping the blade from bowing too far outward? This mill is an American Mill that has been set on a 6" H beam frame. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on October 20, 2018, 06:35:25 AM
Guide pins is sort of a misnomer.  They don't really guide the saw, but protect it from knot dodge and other sorts of things when the cut goes off line.  

The last mill I ran, I was running 700 RPM.  That's what the mill was set up for, and that's what the saws were hammered for.  If you run too fast, your saw just won't perform very well.  Fast running saws are harder for maintenance.  Your teeth have to be in good shape.  The angle has to be good and there can't be any corners off on the teeth.  The saw collars also have to be in good shape.  There isn't that much of an advantage on an older mill to run that fast.  Most of them ran around 540 RPM.  

If you go too fast for what the saw has been hammered, it will bow out, which will also effect your lead, especially if you are holding it back with the guide pins.  You'll also get heat in the rim, and that will twist the saw.  You'll also be burning up your guide pins.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Gearbox on October 20, 2018, 09:03:59 PM
I like to run my saws about 25 RPM over the stand up speed . the way I do it is back your guides off so you have a 1/8 on the log side . increase the speed as you will hear the saw banging the guides . keep increasing speed until the banging stops.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on October 21, 2018, 09:04:24 AM
I like to run my saws about 25 RPM over the stand up speed . the way I do it is back your guides off so you have a 1/8 on the log side . increase the speed as you will hear the saw banging the guides . keep increasing speed until the banging stops.  
Me too, or even 50 rpm over depending on how the governor takes ahold.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: DMcCoy on October 21, 2018, 10:18:15 AM
Just a fwiw.  Hopefully the rusty blade in the picture is your old blade.  I have those same bits and shanks and they are no longer available. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on October 21, 2018, 12:27:56 PM
I remember my saw doc saying that you can go +/- 25 RPM from how the saw was hammered without too many problems.  I couldn't do that at the higher RPM that I ran.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on October 21, 2018, 09:09:12 PM
Just a fwiw.  Hopefully the rusty blade in the picture is your old blade.  I have those same bits and shanks and they are no longer available.
Are they style 3 or something larger?
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on October 22, 2018, 12:39:15 AM
Yep, that's my old blade, I got a nice 56" blade being stored inside that will act as my primary soon, just want to get through the learning curve on this one, I ordered a laser RPM tachometer and chrome paint. I'm going to get the radiator problem hashed out tomorrow hopefully, and will be making my couple of passes. The capable system is hooked up, the blade is pretty well secured, just need to tidy a few things up with black tape, zip ties, a few minutes with the cut off wheel, and 1 run to TSC or Home depot and I'll have my first couple of boards. Pretty exciting to be this close, practically been two years since I dropped the down payment for this mill. Got what seems like an eternally long knock out list of knick-nacky projects, after the already mentioned problems are solved (radiator, etc) Ive got to set up the throttle, but Im, thinking I will be able to rig something for the mean time hehe. I've got practically all day tomorrow to work on it, so I should have things tidied up and ready for testing by tomorrow night, all things going exactly to plan and what not..... I will keep you all up to date, I'm probably going to start a separate thread for this build, I have hours and hours of video that I took of the extraction of the mill, building of the form, and what not, I have practically the entire project captured on my go pro, just need to condense it. These are my current problems though, so I don't see this thread disappearing anytime soon. Thank you all for the help so far and for the future help and interest. These past two years have been quite a trip, and I know things are just beginning. Got practically an endless amount of knowledge to acquire, I'm just a young buck trying to cut some great lumber!
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on October 22, 2018, 05:50:30 AM
Mounting the blade.  Put the saw on the arbor, and pull back on the shear pins before tightening.  If you don't, you might snap your shear pins on the first cut.  Snapping shear pins is nasty.  Also, when you tighten, you can overtighten and smash your collars.  The way I tightened up the nut was to snug it up with the wrench, then kick the end of the wrench 3-4 times.  That's tight enough.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on October 22, 2018, 04:14:25 PM
Well, I have the guide pins off of the blade by 1/8th inch and secured well. In terms of the shear pins, I put the blade on and how I thought it went together then tightened down the nut with a 36" pipe wrench no kicking, just the force of 250lbs giving a few pulls (not me my big friend), there were two pins that were inserted into the collar, then were inserted into the mill through the blade before the tightening of the nut.  I hope this makes sense, I've had the saw up to rpms and everything seemed to be good in terms of the the securing of the blade. I really did not understand your explanation of what to do with the shear pins, and from what you described as the consequence I don't fancy having my shear pins break on my first cut. If you or someone could put it into other terms or explain differently this technique that would be grand and glorious. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on October 22, 2018, 07:07:25 PM
I was describing what to do when you have the shear pins and collar on the saw.  You pull back on the saw while you snug up the nut.  Chances are you won't shear the pins.  But, it has been know to happen.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on October 22, 2018, 07:42:46 PM
Those pins are a big deal. What Ron is telling you is that the saw pin holes must be touching the pins in the direction of force when the saw is in the log. They are not shear pins, they are drive pins. They do not have to fit tight and should be smooth. The saw needs to be able to 'oil can' in the collars so dents in the pins are not good.  Never stall or jam the saw in the log as this can dent the pins or worse and over tighten the nut and damage the collars and even bend the threaded end.  When learning to saw there is a lot to keep tract of.  It took me a long time to teach myself to saw and many years to trouble shoot well enough that I can saw every day.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: bandmiller2 on October 22, 2018, 08:30:52 PM
Jemmy, your doing the right thing going slow and asking questions. Being a sawyer on a circular mill is like learning to ride a bicycle, you just have to do it, a toss or two are to be expected. It seems strange that such large heavy machinery requires such exact adjustment. Really check your lead and be sure no slivers of wood or bark rub the saw plate and heat it. Learn to file straight, best to copy the profile of a new bit. I'm sure their is science involved but handset mill are more of a seat of your pants operation that will become second nature with practice. Frank C.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on October 22, 2018, 09:28:13 PM
SUCCESS! hahaha, got everything set up and went for it. The pins seemed to be in good condition and went into the saw in a somewhat loose fashion but once the nut was spun on tightened there seemed to be a solid connection. First cut is a very little piece that I'm going to put on a shelf, didnt figure out the radiator yet, just kept filling it with water then drained it at the end of the day. Gonna get some fittings tomorrow to hopefully solve the issue. Got the chrome spray paint for the PTO to use in conjunction with the laser tachometer, and a game plan for the throttle, thank you all for the help! Got a lot of tweaking, and little punch list things to do/monitor, feels like I just met my first child haha, hes got a little attitude, but seems to be working pretty good. 





(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/IMG_0284.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1540257672)
 
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Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on November 30, 2018, 09:46:11 PM
OKKKK, so I was attempting to cut up some 4x6s for the track extensions for the sawmill and lost some teeth. When I was cutting my RPMs dropped a few times, I didn't stall the motor, but it did throw the blade into a wobble. After a couple of cuts I noticed I was missing teeth, so I shut the mill down to inspect. What I saw was 2 teeth and their inserts entirely missing and 1 tooth was sheared off  :'( ... to make matters worse I noticed was what looked like hair line fractures in the blade that start in the center and stretch outward like sun-rays (picture below). Now when I bought this mill, the previous owner was not using this blade, something should have triggered my brain then. I have a 56" blade that I believe is in good condition. My question is, did I do this to this blade by having the RPMs drop? Or were these cracks probably there before I started cutting, and I couldn't see them until I started cutting and the cracks re-surfaced. If I did do this to my blade, I do not wish to do the same thing to the 56" blade. And on a separate note, do you NEED the guide pins to run the saw? Or are they there just to insure a straight cut through variable conditions? (like knots and what not) I only cut about 30 bdft before these issues arose. 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/IMG_0513.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1543632337)
 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on December 01, 2018, 11:33:01 AM
Looks to me like you cleaned the surface rust off the saw when you made a few passes.  Judging from the cracks, I am surprised it stood at all.  There is rust in the cracks, so, it isn't something that you did.  

As for missing teeth, I've done that on numerous occasions.  There were holes in the roof to prove it.  It comes from the shanks being too loose in the sockets.  Sockets can get stretched over time.  You would need an oversized shank to correct it, or you could stretch it by peening the inside of the shank.  I have also tapped on the shoulder of the saw to put it back into place as a fix.  

Do you need guide pins?   You won't be able to control your saw and you will saw into something that will ruin your saw, like a headblock or the like.  Those will rip shoulders off the saw.  There's a lot of things that can pull your saw off line.  They include dull teeth, a chipped tooth, the grain of the log, knots, nails, insulators and a multitude of other things.  Your saw will get hot when it goes off line, and possibly bend.  Then you'll need to get it hammered.  

If nothing else, look at guide pins as an insurance policy.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on December 01, 2018, 06:18:26 PM
If everything was perfect that cracked saw wouldn't clean up unless you sawed watery wood but in this case it showed you what was there. That saw is scrap. Somebody ran that saw to destruction.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on December 01, 2018, 08:58:03 PM
Please don't run that saw anymore. Hang it on a wall somewhere or paint a sign on it.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on December 03, 2018, 01:28:17 AM
Well I am very happy I shut things down when I did... When I saw those cracks I knew something was very wrong, and then I thought to myself, "I bet this thing is structurally unsound and might shred apart" So I gave a shout out to my guardian angel for not letting me die quite yet. Ive already got plans for this saw, it should make for a great sign out front!!!! Im still kinda quaking in my boots about that saw. I wasnt as concerned about the missing teeth, i figured that would happen on occasion. Those cracks are another deal though. I figure that saw is a pretty much a bomb waiting to go off... 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on December 03, 2018, 01:34:28 AM
And that makes sense for the guide pins... I didnt really think about the saw getting pulled to the point of ruining or hitting the cart, but I see how it could easily do that! Gosh now that Im sawing I understand why people like bandsaws so much...  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: thecfarm on December 03, 2018, 06:53:41 AM
A very nice thread!!
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Don P on December 03, 2018, 07:19:25 AM
I've skimmed the carriage and the dogs, neither of which you ever want to get into so yes do keep your eyes open and thinking cap on at all times. It is not good to ever throw shanks but it will happen occasionally. Take your proposed blade to a sawdoc to be checked and tensioned, it sounds like the previous owner ran his gear hard. One thing to keep in mind is most, but certainly not all stuff thrown by the blade travels in the plane of the blade. Make a point of not being in that line, front or rear, any more than you have to be. I line up, look down that line if needed and then step back to pull the stick.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: apm on December 03, 2018, 08:12:03 AM
It looks like your saw collar is undersized, as well. Make sure it is the same diameter as the back one.

Greg
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: DMcCoy on December 03, 2018, 08:25:38 AM
JC!  That blade gives me the shivers. 

Your 56" saw- those look like 5/16" 4 1/2 8/9 bits.  I would check for stamp marks on your shanks and see if they are still available before spending too much on getting your saw reconditioned.

Yes keep your head out of the saw plane of rotation.  I have both circle mill and bandsaw.  The circle mill will flat out saw faster but has more waste.  It also has the sound and scratch marks you just can't beat.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on December 03, 2018, 09:28:45 AM
I cant imagine ever sawing without guide pins. Even with them, things can get hairy.

Duck and run! A circle sawyer initiation. in Sawmills and Milling (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=7893.0)

Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on December 03, 2018, 05:37:34 PM
Jeff, that is some scary stuff. Where can I go to have my blade looked at? I don't think my local fab shop will really know what to do :) . I am in the Toledo area, I'm not apposed to driving a great deal to have quality work done. I have a different "good" blade that I should take and have looked at, I assume, before sawing with it, especially after this fiasco.  Btw Jeff the quote on your profile couldn't be more applicable in this thread  ;)
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on December 04, 2018, 05:17:09 AM
Get in touch with one of the local circle mills and find out who they have hammer their saws.  In our area, we had a local saw shop stop by once a month.  They sold mill supplies like files, teeth, etc, and they would pick up saws for hammering.  They would deliver in the next month.  But, if I needed something done right away, I could take the saw to their shop and wait on it.  If you get to talk to a saw doc, you'll learn quite a bit.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 03, 2019, 04:39:07 PM
Ok so I swapped out blades this week and started the mill up to start figuring out this archaic piece of machinery. I am still struggling to find the appropriate rim speed. I had a few moments that gave me legit anxiety, like a positive feed back loop in my brain making me a little timid. I was bring the saw up to speed and the blade appeared to wobble to a GREAT degree for about a quarter second and made a bit of noise. I powered it down immediately. Took a few deep breaths and then started the motor back up. I slowly brought the blade up to speed, watching it want to stand up when I was full throttle, but the top end of that gear was not getting it done, so i shifted it into second and it finally stood up. Once the blade was standing I brought the cart down the line. When the wood made contact with the blade it lost significant RPMs. So I backed it out and kept jacking the RPM's up. But each time it entered the wood I would lose RPM's. While the motor was wound up the blade looked like it was traveling too quick. Or the blade needs rehammered, because it looked "wavy" it wasnt wobbling, but it looked bowed in a goofy fashion. Which freaked me out so I powered it down and now I am sitting in front of my computer typing. I cant keep my RPM's low because the motor keeps giving each time I enter the wood. But I dont know if I am too fast or the blade needs attention. Its a catch 22, I cant run it too fast due to blade, but the motor needs to be wound up to keep the appropriate RPMs. I need this mill to run SOON I have a few projects that are starting to bark down my door. I couldnt imagine buying 500$ of lumber when I have spent so much time and energy getting this thing to this point. It is 95% there, just need to cut 8 4x6s to lay out the track extensions, and build my log stage. Then the mill is "complete". Is there anyone that does mill consulting? I'm going to reach out to the previous owner and see if he can come down and help me trouble shoot. And does anyone know of any saw docs near Toledo? I imagine I would look into Michigan for such a service. Another note, my cable system keep "loosening" significantly after 2 passes. I have no idea why that is happening, but my theory is that the cable keeps lengthening each time it is put under stress. But I have taken multiple inches out of it multiple times.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: dgdrls on February 03, 2019, 06:16:47 PM
jemmy,

you have to know your engine speed and arbor speed
otherwise your guessing and the saw will never perform well

D
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on February 03, 2019, 07:15:55 PM
Get yourself a digital tach and stop guessing. $10-20 on Ebay.  You'll probably find one local.

Make sure you're not getting belt slippage to the mandrel.  

After you have a problem, check your saw too see where it is hot.  If there isn't much heat, then it isn't the saw.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Woodpecker52 on February 03, 2019, 08:53:37 PM
Oh the joys of a circle mill!
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 04, 2019, 01:30:21 AM
Well I know I need to some leveling, but even so I dont know whats going on with the motor, it seems like its wanting to die. Could the blade not standing up correcting cause the blade to cut so bad that it robs RPMs? Thats one theory I have. I'm going to do the nut check and start reading some manuals tonight, and start on a lot of knick nacky projects. It's very close to being able to cut. Just needs a trained eye and an after noon. I have a RPM laser gauge but its inconsistent but even then the RPMs falling is weird. And the cable system, might need replaced, but how much slack can I take out right? haha
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 04, 2019, 01:36:55 AM
When I did my first 10ft x 12" cut it seemed like the motor could just power through it, so Idk why its having problems getting through when the blade seems to be standing. I can see the the right RPM's where it stands but the RPMs fall as the log hits it. So I cranked it up slowly and blade seemed to be doing ok but it kept dying. A few minor adjustments up I see the blade twisted goofy, so I powered it down and came on here to see what happened. And what I can do to learn. Im going to be studying some manuals over the coarse of the next week.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 04, 2019, 08:17:44 AM
As you probably have been told the speed of the saw must remain in the cut.  A big problem for beginners is understanding the swage of the teeth and how it must be equal on both sides. Getting the lead just right is a real pain because if everything is not perfect you can't tell what's going on. Go by the book and be fussy about the teeth as they take the saw where they want.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Sawmill Man on February 04, 2019, 08:36:16 AM
You could also be having governor or fuel delivery problems
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Trapper John on February 04, 2019, 09:07:31 AM
If your Detroit has a transmission it probably came out of a truck and probably has a limited speed governor.  You will need a variable speed governor.  Or maybe your belt is slipping.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 04, 2019, 09:43:19 AM
If you have not read this yet, stop, dont do anything else and READ IT.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on February 04, 2019, 12:11:23 PM
How cold was it when you were trying to get things to go right?   When it gets really cold, things don't go as well.  Especially if you have any water in your fuel.  We always put in fuel conditioner in our tanks.  Metal also doesn't work as well when there is extreme cold.

As for teeth, when I troubleshoot, I always start with new teeth.  That way you eliminate any tooth maintenance problems.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 06, 2019, 05:24:29 PM
Well I have been chunking out that circle mill document. But its like drinking from a fire hose. There's about a million things that could be the issue, and I dont know how to properly asses and address the issues. That is why I am interested in someone coming to point at things that are wrong, and how to fix it. This mill is a nice foundation, it has a 5" beam(s) for its foundation and I put it on a very big foundation. (it is 36"+ thick concrete and 3ft wide) Its just all of the multiple potential issues that has my brain in a twist. I dont even know where to start. I figure even if these teeth are dull that this motor would not have any issues with a 12" cut. I wanted to get this thing running and deal with discrepancies as they arrive and put out each fire as it shows itself. Similar to a truck, you get it running, and find out the breaks are working, or an injector is bad etc. But if it cant start then you cant begin to analyze problems. I dont know what I am looking at half the time and words on a page dont always translate. I am mechanically inclined and when something doesn't seem "right" I can usually see it. But this takes a trained eye. And due to the nature of this thing I really don't want to pay a boat load of tuition in time, headaches, cash, or even my life. I can see how things can go wrong, and FAST, there are no brakes on the blade, and when something goes wrong i can kill the motor, but the blade doesnt stop running for a very long time. I am pretty committed to making this work. I just need to solve this jigsaw asap. Im also in school full time and many other Irons in the fire. I would like this to minimally produce lumber for myself, and slowly build a business around it. Maybe I wont sell dimensional, but there are many potential revenue streams this could contribute to. Its been a two year project and I am at a point where I need someone to set eyes on it so they can tell me the first steps to take. As of right now, I think one of my first moves is replacing the cable. It keeps lengthening each time the cart travels down the track. I have taken multiple feet out of it, which makes NO sense.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 06, 2019, 05:39:50 PM
it was a nice day when I did the test cut. 55 degrees and sunny. So weather was not the factor to blame. Definitely the nut behind the wheel. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Woodpecker52 on February 06, 2019, 06:54:54 PM
I decided I better get rid of my circle mill when I had the mill carriage jump the track with a log and come barreling straight at me,  I was smart enough to have built a steel roll bar cage  around the mill husks and sawyer stand. Just to many things can go wrong and in a hurry.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 06, 2019, 07:15:18 PM
Had a miserable time when I started and I am mechanically inclined if nothing else.  When you push a board through a table saw you are guiding that board. When you dog a log or cant to a carriage and power feed it through a rip saw you have no control. The saw has to be running flat and cut the wood without touching anything but the teeth. The saw plate is there to support the teeth only. Start with new teeth and have the saw going at the right rpm or a little faster. Feed a nice, clean log slowly part way in and back out and observe. The trouble may start when you pass the center of the saw. Have the guide pins not toughing the saw but just there as a safety measure. If the saw goes left or right you will see it getting closer to the guide pins and at least know what it's doing. The condition of the teeth and the lead would cause this most likely.  Circle sawmills are much more fussy than many think. If you could get an expert to come and watch he may spot the trouble. Don't embarrass yourself with dull out of square teeth if you get somebody.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: dgdrls on February 06, 2019, 07:20:57 PM
Jemmy,

what did your 55 degree and sunny test cut reveal?

D
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 07, 2019, 01:11:51 AM
It revealed I am more lost than I thought I was. Haha... As for being embarrassed, I have a hard time being embarrassed only when I know better. Right now I am in state of ignorance, and I will need to study how to properly remove, sharpen, reinstall, and swage. And any other aspects that need addressed in the process. I thought I would get away with not messing with it too much at the start and get at least a couple hundred brdft attempted and iron out issues with blade alignment etc, these are the initial flights. I have run maybe 20bdft through it and each time I run it something goes wrong. I just need to cut 12 4"x6"-12"s that are 36" long to lay out the track extensions. I was going to do rough cut beams on two sides so I could finish of the track. So pretty much need to cut 72 bdft. And I really only need like 6-8 beams. Butttt that seems to be more challenging than I originally thought it would be.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on February 07, 2019, 10:01:40 AM
Its been awhile since I've put cable on a carriage.  I do remember when my cable started to get long, it was ready to break.  But, it wasn't getting as long as yours.  It would just be losing its tautness. 

There are 2 ways of putting on cable.  Most of the older mills used a single cable.  Other mills used 2 cables, one for the front and one for the back.  The cable drive depends on friction to drive things.  Your cable should have at least 4 or 5 wraps at all times.  I always run my cables over the top of the drum.  That's because the pulley was laying horizontal on the track frame.  Some run vertical, and those would run underneath.

For the single cable system, start at either the front or rear of the carriage.  Probably best to center your carriage between the two pulleys.  If you connect to the back of the carriage, you'll go to the front pulley before you start putting wraps on the cable drum.  Pull things tight as you go along.  Then, you'll run cable to the back pulley and to the front of the carriage.  You'll then use your tighteners to pull the cable tight.  Run your carriage back and forth which will take the slack out of your cable.  Continue to tighten until your cable is taut.  That should take care of your cable. 

You need to find someone who has a mill setup similar to yours.  Get in touch with a local mill or even a local forester.  You just need to ask if they know of any circle mills in the area.  Usually, they'll be more than happy to give you a lead.  Follow up until you find one.  There are usually several in any given area.  You're about 400 miles from me, and that's a bit too far to drive.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: miro on February 08, 2019, 06:30:05 PM
Sounds like my adventure with an under powered circle mill 7 years ago.
In order of priority I found:
1) I HAD to learn how to make each and every tooth SHARP and the same height . Learning what a tooth looks like when sharp and when dull is major importance.
The best way to learn this is to file by hand  with a new file, good lights, and steady strokes. Tooth corners need to be SHARP SHARP SHARP. File only the face of each tooth.
If a tooth is too high, file the face until it is the correct height.
I made up a jig ,using a dial indicator to measure each tooth and made them all within about 0.020 inch - less than 1/32 variation.

I routinely felt the saw blade ( just after shut down) to see if it was warm - never was.

2) I had to get the engine to deliver enough power to keep the blade RPM constant ( 500 in my case) . I fussed with it until a made up a tach that I could see from the sawyer position . Ultimately I made up an electronic tach with an analog meter display  so I only had to glance at it . I found digital meter displays need too much of my attention to read them.

Eventually, the engine governor was found to be "lazy" - that is, it didn't respond well , so initially the feed was "mild" until the engine throttled up - you could tell by the sound it made. Even then, on a 15 inch log, I had to feather the feed to keep the RPM up.

3) The US Forest Service document became my toilet tank reading material - kept at it until I learned to apply to the mill, what I had read ( and thought I understood)

4) I didn't give up and , yes I found an experienced sawyer - and visited him to see how he operated and got him to explain his way of "reading" the teeth and how his mill was working.  He would sharpen after every second or third log - did it in about 6 - 7 minutes.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: bandmiller2 on February 08, 2019, 08:08:23 PM
Miro, good solid advice. I have found its best to start out with good shanks new bits and a freshly hammered saw  to reduce the variables. Everything solid, plumb and level with no play. Frank C.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Old Iron nut on February 08, 2019, 09:20:56 PM
Jemmy, If I was you I would get rid of that 2 stroke joke and get a 4 stroke motor with the right governor on it to run your mill. A friend of mine had a similar situation and he got the right governor for his 2 stroke joke and his mill started to run right. His motor was out of a truck and it did not have the right governor on it. Only thing I can see wrong on his setup is that he is standing beside the engine! Those stupid engines make more noise than one can imagine. Screaming demons. If you get one that doesn't leak oil, it is sick! That is what all my GM diesel friends say. Good luck on your venture! Old Iron nut.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Don P on February 08, 2019, 10:32:02 PM
I can understand a small amount of stretch in a new cable, and some more for it finding the shortest running path, but I'd also check to make sure the pulleys at the ends aren't drifting or being pulled out of whatever they are running in. On a Belsaw they used a pipe for an axle across each end of the mill. I bent those with heavy logs or when I got into a bind and have noticed on others the same thing. You're basically running a winch and the snatch blocks at either end need to be firmly anchored. I was also using cheapo eyebolts at each end of the carriage and pulled a couple straight before I welded them closed. Now if I get into a bind the roll pin in the drum axle shears which is the intended weak link. I'm sure yours is set up different but maybe the same idea might apply.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 09, 2019, 08:15:55 AM
When I started drilled a hole in the end of the mandrel and jammed a speedometer cable in it that ran to a '55 chevy speedo. If memory serves, 45 mph= 600 rpm. Also had no governor, sawed with a 'string'.  Have seen 3-71s do a good job on a sawmill. Wonder if belts are slipping.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 09, 2019, 03:36:07 PM
No drilling required.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/20190209_152724.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1549744557)
 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 09, 2019, 11:42:16 PM
No belts are slipping I am going to play with the pins, gears, and cable again here soon. Talked with the previous owner so I am going to try a few things. TBC I am committed to this thing haha
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: hacknchop on February 09, 2019, 11:59:54 PM
I had trouble with a saw once until an older fella came along and told me to remove every second tooth and I did and it made the difference I think your just underpowered every tooth draws .Check with some of the other guys like Jeff  they will know what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on February 10, 2019, 04:11:55 PM
I had trouble with a saw once until an older fella came along and told me to remove every second tooth and I did and it made the difference I think your just underpowered every tooth draws .Check with some of the other guys like Jeff  they will know what I'm talking about.
Worth a try, slow feed in knots or cross grain. Of course you can't just take out teeth or the saw will curl. Have to blunt or have every other tooth short. I have seen old solid tooth saws with every other tooth sawed off, must have been sawing with a fordson.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on February 10, 2019, 06:53:15 PM
The problem with using a skip tooth method is that you have half the gullet space for dust.  That means you have to slow your feed down or you'll hang the saw.  Hanging the saw puts a lot of stress around the eye of the saw, and you'll need to get it hammered.  Probably okay for a hobby operation.  But, its just putting a band aid on the problem.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 10, 2019, 08:23:58 PM
Ditto.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 10, 2019, 08:27:40 PM
Hanging a saw is an experience. I can almost guarantee if it happens to you, the first words out of your mouth will be "what the he....!"
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: hacknchop on February 10, 2019, 09:44:09 PM
The experience that I had was we had worked on this mill for about a week every day , checked first to make sure everything was level ,made sure the lead was right bought a brand new jockey grinder and stellite teeth ,messed with the governor didínt help because the saw was underpowered when I would start into a cut I would have to really watch my feed speed because the motor couldnít keep up. Not after remove every second tooth I would cut on average a tandem load a day, the only other thing that made a difference was in big spruce we would try to saw from the butt end which was new to me as before that I never paid attention. Iím just a sawyer not a millright but a fella does learn a few things along the way.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: hacknchop on February 10, 2019, 10:02:53 PM
The only other thing I want to add is I was a somewhat experienced sawmill operator hired to resurrect this moth balled butchered mill and when I couldnít get it to work I reached out to older more experienced ones and they saved my job and reputation,I didnít know about the forestry forum or it may not have been around then 1998 but it was the same type of experience so reach out to your    closest saw filer and ask thatís what I did .
                                                    All the best Terry Ferris 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ianab on February 11, 2019, 04:25:33 AM
Reducing the number of teeth should allow you to cut better, at a reduced speed. 

The problem is that each time a tooth bites in it has to cut though all the wood fibres in it's path. Now whether it bites in 1/32" or 1/16", the load on the saw is similar.  So slowing down the feed doesn't help as much as you might think. 

Now if the saw has less teeth, you can keep up the 1/16" feed rate per cut, which will only be 1/2 the speed of a full comp saw with heaps of power.

Same way a swing blade mill with only 4 - 6 teeth can cut OK, and throw decent chips (not dust). Because each cutter on the blade needs 2-3 HP to keep it working properly,. So 6 cutters on my mill with 13 hp works. 50 teeth on a circle blade, then you want 100+ HP pushing it. Drop it back to only 25  teeth, and 50 hp should drive it, but at 1/2 the feed speed. Each tooth is taking a proper bite, throwing out chips etc.  But you have to watch that feed speed, and not stall the saw.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: sharp edge on February 11, 2019, 06:33:36 AM
Start with cutting 8"-10" white pine logs, then work your way up. The knots are even soft in white pine. 
That board you cut would be hard to do on a good mill.

SE
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: dgdrls on February 12, 2019, 07:24:49 PM
Jemmy

did you figure out what pattern you're saw is?
How many teeth?

D
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on February 12, 2019, 09:11:45 PM
I can get some photos from things Ive cut along with over all photos, I believe the motor has at least 100hp, and I was told that it had plenty of power but I could be wrong, Im fine with switching out motors. But I dont think thats the issue as of right now. Im gonna start with the teeth, blade alignment etc, leveling, etc then try and cut next. I got a decent list going now. And I am in school full time till may but i want to be producing something in 2 weeks or less, and by 3 months have things decently fluid.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Jeff on February 12, 2019, 09:47:59 PM
Circle sawmilling is a science, it is an art, and it is witchcraft.  You need to get the science part straight first.  You will get no where unless you procedurally go through the setup and alignment of the mill, the power and transfer of power to the mill, and the blade and teeth. All of these have to be correct to run a circle sawmill.   Go at it halfassed and try and skip the important stuff and you are destined to fail.  Once we get past the science stage, we can then help you with the art and then the witchcraft stages.  :D
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on April 14, 2019, 11:27:55 PM
Update:

I have a lot of irons in the fire and this thing has been on the back burner of the rotation, I've compiled easily about 24hrs of work to do before I do any test cuts. Currently I am in school full time, 500 egg laying chickens to tend to, a full time job, and many other projects inherent to a farm, sawmill, business, or being a student. (designing and building 3 buildings and one property development to name a few of the projects I am dealing with) I have exams and homework for the next month and my egg layers will start giving me eggs. I've got welding, cable issues, and overall assembly/building to do. I have been researching, and talking with people when I can. I am going to knock out the projects and eliminate many issues before running. But it is going to take time and things aren't very straight forward. Like I have to run 400 feet of extension chords for a welder and level everything out. Well I have not given up on this project, it is just apart of many other projects. I think I am going to do a cheap band saw mod, but before I do that I am going to mess with this thing. A lot to be done, but I am busy, and hopefully it all works out in a timely fashion. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jimparamedic on May 25, 2019, 10:42:29 AM

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19672/18010089_1532303710127356_8322040791682570763_n5B15D.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1553948411)
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Woodpecker52 on May 25, 2019, 11:47:03 AM
You have learned well what the joys of owning a older circle mill is like.  More like restoring an antique tractor painting it and looking at it.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jimparamedic on May 25, 2019, 12:06:23 PM
Just hang in there it will get there. Where are you located?
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: bandmiller2 on May 30, 2019, 08:45:43 PM
What Jeff said about circular sawmilling hit the nail on the head, that should be carved in stone. Handset circular mills are the great equalizer a hill Billy has as much of a chance as a PhD engineer to have a good running mill. Small adjustments mean a lot, any shortcuts taken will be back to bite you. There is such a thing as over engineering you need to feel what the saw is doing and treat it like a trophy wife. Frank C. 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jimparamedic on June 03, 2019, 09:34:57 AM
Yes I agree fully a mill is like a women. Remember their mood can change very quickly.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on June 05, 2019, 11:47:56 PM
Update:

Thank you all for the support and words of wisdom. This project has been humbling. Thankfully I have had some recent success with my slabbing build. Its been in the shop for a year and I just completed my first cut. I finished in the dark, but I finished it. There is about 3 more solid days of fabrication and then that unit should be ready for action. Just need to build, configure, figure, a rail system. But I am happy with this projects latest developments and had to share. I will be starting a separate thread for it soon.

Chickens are starting to lay, I am working 60-80hrs a week as an irrigation foreman, the weather has been tough and the chickens have been a handful, but I swear I will complete this mill project. This weekend I believe I will be attacking the many nick-nacky issues that have been bothering me about the mill and hopefully by the end of the weekend I will be much closer to firing up the motor. I cant begin to put a time table to things for this mill but I am persistent and baring some cataclysmic event this saw will run. 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/61768004_692030194560293_4105394375926743040_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559791641)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/61676715_399714883954201_5958483085510049792_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559791635)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/61847890_2351351791821044_2237521688830935040_n.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559791518)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/slabber2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559792719)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/slabber1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559792706)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/slabber.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559792699)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/45820/slabber3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1559792804)
 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: 03westernstar on June 28, 2019, 10:58:18 PM

Jemmy. Where are you located? I travel alot and may be able to come by and give you a hand with your circle saw of problems, I have been through it the last four years sawing with my frick, everything down to pouring the Babbitt mandrel bearings, and shimming the saw with paper, if your close to somewhere I may be I would be glad to swing by and lend a hand.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: moodnacreek on June 29, 2019, 09:10:59 AM

Jemmy. Where are you located? I travel alot and may be able to come by and give you a hand with your circle saw of problems, I have been through it the last four years sawing with my frick, everything down to pouring the Babbitt mandrel bearings, and shimming the saw with paper, if your close to somewhere I may be I would be glad to swing by and lend a hand.
                      And I thought I was good.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: jemmy on June 29, 2019, 12:01:58 PM
I am just south of Toledo, Ohio. I dont really have the mill to the point I want eyes on it yet. I have been so overwhelmed dealing with my chickens, work, and other irons in the fire, including other mill projects, to really dive into this thing yet again. I would not be apposed to having you look at it in its current condition, there is just a lot of work that needs to be done before, I think, I need any experienced eye. I would benefit greatly from another set of eyes, I just want to maximize my time with someone if they do make it out.  Ive got a bit of debacle going on with my chickens that will take me a few weeks if not months to figure out so they are my current focus. The punch list for this mill has gotten longer and longer the more I sat and started writing things out, thank you, and everyone else, for the offers. Im probably a month away from the mill being ready for eyes, but we shall see, i said that like a month ago ::). 
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: Ron Wenrich on June 30, 2019, 05:56:37 AM
I did the paper shimming.  All it means is that you probably should have your collars turned.  
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: 03westernstar on July 01, 2019, 08:27:26 PM
I did the paper shimming.  All it means is that you probably should have your collars turned.  
Yep Collars needed turning, I made a jig and turned them myself, but the paper is a really good diagnostic tool or to buy some time and cheap too.
Title: Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
Post by: 03westernstar on July 01, 2019, 08:36:07 PM
I am just south of Toledo, Ohio. I dont really have the mill to the point I want eyes on it yet. I have been so overwhelmed dealing with my chickens, work, and other irons in the fire, including other mill projects, to really dive into this thing yet again. I would not be apposed to having you look at it in its current condition, there is just a lot of work that needs to be done before, I think, I need any experienced eye. I would benefit greatly from another set of eyes, I just want to maximize my time with someone if they do make it out.  Ive got a bit of debacle going on with my chickens that will take me a few weeks if not months to figure out so they are my current focus. The punch list for this mill has gotten longer and longer the more I sat and started writing things out, thank you, and everyone else, for the offers. Im probably a month away from the mill being ready for eyes, but we shall see, i said that like a month ago ::).
I am headed to Salt lake City,UT in October for a Business/Pleasure trip my shortest route from Northern,VA is through northern Ohio, If you dont get it strait by then I could stop by, if your worried about what it looks like you should see my mill :D