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General Forestry => Tree, Plant and Wood I.D. => Topic started by: WoodBurninLou on April 25, 2019, 11:05:48 AM

Title: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on April 25, 2019, 11:05:48 AM
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55385/IMG_0890.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1556204618)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55385/IMG_0889.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1556204606)
 Hi,  We have multiple trees like this on the property and I cannot find pictures of anything like them.  We always called them ironwood, but from what I see on here and on tree sites, they don't look like either hornbeam species.  Most of the places they exist, there are multiple trees in one spot.  They are extremely dense and heavy and don't seem to get much bigger than the ones pictured here.  They often die and stay standing for years, maintaining their density.  Do I need to provide pictures of anything else?  They are not yet putting out leaves.  I live in central NY.
Thanks, WBLou
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: wisconsitom on April 25, 2019, 11:35:48 AM
What part of the world is this?  Superficially, resemble northern red oak.  But could also be cottonwood.  Could also be many other species.  Can you provide views of buds?  Twigs?

tom
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on April 25, 2019, 12:34:52 PM
What part of the world is this?  Superficially, resemble northern red oak.  But could also be cottonwood.  Could also be many other species.  Can you provide views of buds?  Twigs?

tom
Hi Tom, Central NY.  Definitely not red oak, we have them all around.  These are much denser than the red oak.  I'll get some more pics.  Thanks...
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: KEC on April 25, 2019, 09:53:27 PM
You don't happen to have any that you cut to take photos of the cut ends, do you? I'm in CNY also, if you're close by I would take a look. I'm leaning to Red Oak.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: Don P on April 25, 2019, 10:38:59 PM
Looks like elm to me.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: bitternut on April 25, 2019, 11:12:12 PM
I think they might be serviceberry trees. They should have small white blossoms and are the first things to blossom in the spring followed by small purple/reddish edible fruit in June. Hence the common name of juneberry. Also they go by the name of shadbush. 
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: jimparamedic on April 26, 2019, 09:16:17 AM
Just a guess but looks like sumac to me.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16789/sumac_3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1288277738)
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 26, 2019, 09:25:23 AM
Serviceberry, they will flower real early. The fruit looks like a blueberry when ripe, but they don't grow in clusters.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_SpringFlower-003.jpg)

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_SpringFlower-002.jpg)

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_SpringFlower-004.jpg)

Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on April 26, 2019, 11:28:01 AM
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55385/IMG_0897.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1556292128)
 

Here is the cut end.  I already topped the branches, so no tops.  Tried pics of the branches of  standing trees, they are way too far away to be useful.  The branches probably have double the amount of twigs as the red oaks right next to them (probably get the same amount of sun).  While the bark looks very similar to the red oak of the same diameter, this tree is much smoother.  Thanks all for opinions.  When it leafs out, I will get some pics of those also.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: wisconsitom on April 26, 2019, 12:44:48 PM
If serviceberry-I agree the bark does resemble to some extent-then it is by far, the largest serviceberry I've ever seen.  I have doubts.  Tree is too large.

tom
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on April 26, 2019, 12:51:33 PM
If serviceberry-I agree the bark does resemble to some extent-then it is by far, the largest serviceberry I've ever seen.  I have doubts.  Tree is too large.

tom
I agree on the bark, very similar to pics here and other I found.  I don't recall ever seeing berries, but maybe I just never noticed them before.  They are quite tall, and have branches only near the top.  Perplexing.  Leaves can't pop out soon enough!
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 26, 2019, 02:34:37 PM
The leaves should have a fine toothed margin, oval and usually reddish when emerging. :)

I've seen some pretty big ones. 30 feet and 12" diameters are big I think. I've seen them 8". But some 60 feet tall and 2 feet across have been found. They sort of look striped before they  get quite big. Not as obvious as striped maple (striped maple is very soft wood and light). You find some nice ones on old apple orchard ground that is being overgrown. Several species. :)
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: KEC on April 26, 2019, 11:07:35 PM
For sure not Oak. I''ve seen Serviceberry many times and that works for the look of the stem, but I've never seen a cut end before. They should blossum soon.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: bluthum on April 28, 2019, 03:17:11 PM
That does resemble service berry. In my world there are 2 species, one is only a shrub and the other [Amelanchier arborea] makes a small tree. Usually they are crooked but once in a while one will be big enough for a short log. The wood is fairly plain, hard and dense.  The only lumber of it I ever had was consumed by powder post beetles before I used it. I'd guess it would be good fire wood. 
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: wisconsitom on April 29, 2019, 08:58:35 AM
If serviceberry-and you guys are educating me that there are in fact bigger ones out there-this plant should now have clearly-visible flower buds at this time.

tom
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on April 30, 2019, 06:50:15 AM
Not blossoming yet.  I am up on a hill and a few miles away in the valley, trees are blossoming, but not up here.  I'm in Otsego County NY.  

These grow pretty tall, I have one on the ground I tipped in Feb., I guesstimate 45 feet.  
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on April 30, 2019, 08:09:21 AM
Took a tape measure, 41.5', 18" stump and maybe 4' of branches cut off the top.  So about 47'.  And the cut end is about 7", and my first attempt at counting rings shows about 55?  (never counted rings before.)  Is that how old it might be, 55?

The 2nd one I have on the ground is around 52' and diameter is smaller, maybe 6".
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: wisconsitom on April 30, 2019, 09:31:00 AM
Allegheny serviceberry here in cold, wet Wisconsin has well-developed buds visible at this time.  I doubt you're looking at downy or other serviceberry there if no big, long flower buds present.

tom
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 30, 2019, 05:30:17 PM
If those have been cut for some time, no good looking for buds about the flower on them. :D

None of them are flowering here yet, too cold.

Alders, aspen and soft maples are though. Not sure if beaked hazel is yet, but must be close. Until I see purple trillium come up, no soft fruit trees will be flowering.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on May 01, 2019, 08:10:00 AM
If those have been cut for some time, no good looking for buds about the flower on them. :D

None of them are flowering here yet, too cold.

Alders, aspen and soft maples are though. Not sure if beaked hazel is yet, but must be close. Until I see purple trillium come up, no soft fruit trees will be flowering.
Ya, kinda tough for buds to pop out on the ones on the ground, when I topped all of the branches!
We do have some trees starting to show buds and blossoms, but not these.  You mention soft fruit trees.  Just to be clear, these trees are the hardest, densest trees I have ever cut.  Is the serviceberry hard or soft?  And based on the cut piece, it looks like it could be at least 50 years old @ 7 inches?
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: wisconsitom on May 01, 2019, 08:41:58 AM
In my imagination, I thought perhaps there were similar trees in that same area for you to look at.  In fact, you spoke of branches in your earlier posts.

Another Amelanchier species is in bud-swell stage here in East-Central WI-apple serviceberry.  But up at my farm-60 miles north-no such sightings.  Not much up around there anyway, I don't think.

I might just not be familiar with Amelanchier arborea.  They might be around here...and of similar size....but just something I've missed.

tom
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: SwampDonkey on May 01, 2019, 05:04:07 PM
Lou, I was referring to the fruit, not the wood.  The wood is real hard and slow growing. Many grow in a lot of shade cover, and then manage to find a hole in the canopy to flower when the opportunity arrives.

Just noticing the beaked hazel today. Mostly overlooked, the female flowers are red and very simple. And very small. :)

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_hazel-flower.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1367153111)

Cold here, water was froze in the ditch until noon at work. They've been predicting 50's and never happened yet this week. :D
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on May 02, 2019, 06:52:38 AM
The wood is real hard and slow growing. 
Seems like these two points are a match.  Can't wait for some growth to start poppin' out.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: bitternut on May 04, 2019, 01:47:15 AM
The serviceberry trees in my woods are in full bloom now and can be seen easily when viewing the hill sides. My woods is located in the south west corner of Allegany County NY. Pretty hard to miss them.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10129/IMG_4895~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1556948612)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10129/IMG_4925.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1556945382)
 
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on May 06, 2019, 07:50:06 AM
The serviceberry trees in my woods are in full bloom now and can be seen easily when viewing the hill sides. My woods is located in the south west corner of Allegany County NY. Pretty hard to miss them.
Great, thanks.  The trees in question here are just pushing some leaves through, I can see a bit of red popping out.  Hopefully some close-up pics within a week.  I'm in Otsego County near Oneonta.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on May 17, 2019, 01:59:53 PM
Here is a close-up of the leaves.  Very windy right now, and about 16' high, so best I can get for now.  No flowers yet.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55385/IMG_0953~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1558115923)
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: SwampDonkey on May 17, 2019, 05:50:57 PM
Serviceberry leaves.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on May 17, 2019, 06:58:32 PM
Serviceberry leaves.
Great, so do the flowers follow soon?  Thanks.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: SwampDonkey on May 18, 2019, 04:23:07 AM
Timing is about the same. If none now, or about to open, won't see any this year. Was the tree getting good light? By the looks of the twigs shown it's shaded a bit.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: Chuck White on May 19, 2019, 07:03:18 AM
I think I know what it is!

1. The first one to blossom in the spring!
2. It gets berries on it that resemble Blueberries!
3. Doesn't get very large, usually no more than 6-8 inches diameter!
4. The wood is very dense, and heavier than any other in the area!
5. Doesn't lose much weight as it dries!
6. Looks like Shad to me, some call it Shadberry!
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: SwampDonkey on May 19, 2019, 02:04:09 PM
...........which is a serviceberry. (Amelanchier) ;)
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: Don P on May 19, 2019, 02:42:30 PM
Quote
Looks like Shad to me, some call it Shadberry!
I've also heard it called shadblow and sarvis.
Never have seen it clump or an 18" one before.
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: Chuck White on May 19, 2019, 10:24:30 PM
Nope, the largest I've ever seen was maybe 7-8 inches!
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: BaldBob on May 20, 2019, 01:10:59 AM
The "soft" in soft fruit trees refers to the fruit not the wood. Soft fruit (apple, pear,berries, etc.) as opposed to nuts (walnut, beech, pecan,etc).
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: WoodBurninLou on May 20, 2019, 07:11:55 AM
Thanks all.  I assume the heavy winds up here might have blown away the blossoms?  This pic comes from the field edge, and nothing in the way of it getting sun.  I do find it strange that at my age, I have never seen the fruit on any of these trees.  Could be I just never looked up (but none fall to the ground?).
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: SwampDonkey on May 20, 2019, 06:50:52 PM
Your not alone in not seeing the fruit. I doubt by grandfather or my uncle ever gave much notice to them and they were in the woods a lot. In fact I'm sure my uncle just called them cherries if he did see a blossom. ;)
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: SwampDonkey on May 20, 2019, 06:58:13 PM
Most of the time a shrub like striped maple is seen in the woods about 2-4" in diameter.

In old hemlock stands I've seen them grow 10" easily. I tried cutting one that was rather large with a brush saw and had to break it off after I  had the blade around it 360 degrees. :D If it were a tree maple you couldn't break it off the stump that easy. Striped maple is brittle wood in comparison. I wanted to bring it home, but I was thinning on someone else's land for him so it wasn't mine to bring home and I never asked to. So she's still laying on the ground making soil. ;)
Title: Re: what kind of trees?
Post by: Chuck White on May 20, 2019, 08:05:32 PM
Thanks all.  I assume the heavy winds up here might have blown away the blossoms?  This pic comes from the field edge, and nothing in the way of it getting sun.  I do find it strange that at my age, I have never seen the fruit on any of these trees.  Could be I just never looked up (but none fall to the ground?).
It doesn't take very long for several varieties of birds to notice the fruit.  It won't be visible very long before they have the tree plucked clean!