The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Tree, Plant and Wood I.D. => Topic started by: roscoe234 on February 27, 2010, 10:04:32 AM

Title: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on February 27, 2010, 10:04:32 AM
Need some help with ID please.  Tree was cut here in N.W. Arkansas.  Can take more photos if need be..Thanks RR

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13536/2732/003%7E0.JPG)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13536/2732/004.JPG)
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Title: Re: What is it
Post by: DanG on February 27, 2010, 12:05:06 PM
Loox like Walnut to me.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on February 27, 2010, 12:50:15 PM
I'm not a pro but i think i could ID walnut....To give a little more detail....My friend and arborist (loosely said) brings me firewood.  Mostly Oak from his endeavors.  This tree he's calling "yellow maple".....I aint buy'n it.  Do i need a better picture of the bark.  It splits decent and is very heavy.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: pigman on February 27, 2010, 11:06:56 PM
Looks somewhat like black locust to me. But again the color is not right for locust.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: WDH on February 27, 2010, 11:53:53 PM
I am leaning to the Pigman camp.  The lack of sapwood is a black locust characteristic.  A better bark would help.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: LeeB on February 28, 2010, 12:46:16 AM
woof woof.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: PoDunk on March 01, 2010, 12:37:37 PM
The bark has an x, or diamond looking pattern and the color and rings look like black locust to me too.
We just cut around twenty ricks for firewood and it splits like a dream.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on March 01, 2010, 01:16:23 PM
As a kid on t he farm in Mo I remember locust with huge thorns and on the trunk as well.  It does seem to be the same color best I can remember. 
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: VT_Forestry on March 01, 2010, 02:40:14 PM
I'm subscribing to black locust as well
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on March 01, 2010, 03:22:26 PM
I've noticed the smell of a freshly split piece of this.....reminds me of the odor of the holding pen on the dairy, on a wet day, after the Holsteins were all milked and gone!!!
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: WDH on March 01, 2010, 07:06:40 PM
Roscoe,

Thorns on the trunk means that what you are describing is honeylocust.  Black locust has simple spines (like a rosebush thorn) that are oriented on the twigs at the base of every leaf petiole.  Both are in the legume family and have pods as fruit. 
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: beenthere on March 01, 2010, 07:26:22 PM
I've noticed the smell of a freshly split piece of this.....reminds me of the odor of the holding pen on the dairy, on a wet day, after the Holsteins were all milked and gone!!!

Smelt that good, huh?   ;D
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 01, 2010, 07:52:26 PM
Does hickory have narrow sapwood like the walnuts? The bark doesn't look like black locust, which is thick, interlocked and fibrous. I think black locust heart has a yellowish brown tinge.

That's about the only two options I can see.

Unless the bark is spicy aromatic and the lumber looks like ash, then I would say sassafras.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: WDH on March 01, 2010, 07:59:48 PM
Does hickory have narrow sapwood like the walnuts? The bark doesn't look like black locust, which is thick, interlocked and fibrous. I think black locust heart has a yellowish brown tinge.

No.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 01, 2010, 08:08:45 PM
Well black locust then.  ;)  But that bark sure doesn't look like it does up here. Cautiously optimistic. :D
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Dana on March 02, 2010, 07:41:40 AM
I don't know what it is but I don't think it's Black Locust. At least up here in Michigan the wood of B.L. has a greenish color to it. The photo below is a slab I cut recently. I'll try to get a picture of the end of a log later today.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11780/optimized_2%7E0.jpg)
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 02, 2010, 10:01:40 AM
Dana I agree with you on the color. But, it appears to me there has been some staining going on and not that fresh a look at the log from the first photos.  But on the heartwood color of the posted photos above, it might be because of the lighting and photo optimizing, don't know. But there are only a few native trees with thin/narrow sapwood. The bark I see in the first pics is not right to me. Your bark looks like it does here as well.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on March 02, 2010, 11:56:21 AM
Sounds like i need to show a fresh look inside as well as a better bark....and not woof woof...ya can al'z count on a texican!!!!!  Think im gonna go with locust as well butttttt  i dont think there was any thorns......
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on March 02, 2010, 01:00:04 PM
some new shots in the gallery...i think..
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Dana on March 02, 2010, 01:58:43 PM
I  was out to the farm and got a couple photos of a Black Locust log. I intentionally copied Roscoe234 photo aspect and now I have changed my mind. I think it is B.L. When I first cut the logs they were very green in appearance. Looking at them now as a few weeks has gone by, the fresh cut wood is turning brown. not as brown as Roscoes, but his may have been earlier. Also mine has that same small ring of white sap wood. 

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11780/Black_Locust_optimized_2.jpg)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11780/Black_Locust_optimized_1.jpg)
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Dana on March 02, 2010, 02:01:52 PM
Where has your second photo gone Roscoe? I was looking for your photo gallery and I don't see that either!
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 02, 2010, 02:09:43 PM
Go to your "Profile" page and set up your photo gallery link by adding 13536 in the field. That way we can go directly there without doing a lot of fishing around. :D

Well I guess you added the photos since.

Dig into the bark of that darn thing with a knife and see if it yellowish. That stick of wood looks like it's been laying around a few months. You sure that ain't some kind of walnut? :D
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Dana on March 02, 2010, 03:40:10 PM
SD are you picking on my stick of wood? :D I didn't feel like walking through the snow to get a photo when I have a part of the same tree in the pole barn. That stick is going to be my anvil base. :)
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 02, 2010, 03:44:45 PM
Dana, not your stick, buddy what's his name and the other fella's stick. ;D
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Dana on March 02, 2010, 04:05:15 PM
 :) ???
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 02, 2010, 04:13:48 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFXwWPYyRqU



 ;D
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: woodtroll on March 02, 2010, 10:12:42 PM
I did not find any additional photos, but with that little bit shown and described I do not think black locust. It looks like elm, Siberian Elm. The bark matches some trees I walk by every day.
Trees grown in a dry climate.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 03, 2010, 05:06:16 AM
Does Siberian elm have narrow sapwood? All we have in my area is American and it has wide sap and lighter colored heart. Elm bark usually has layered color differences and ribbon pore figure on the end grain. Can't see the pores in the images.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on March 03, 2010, 01:43:40 PM
sorry about the photos........gonna fix'm   NOW!!! I had begun to think we had t his fig'd out...but not so sure....was really hoping it was locust.....be a nice hot fire.....next winter!!!
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: woodtroll on March 03, 2010, 03:14:36 PM
In dry areas the sap wood can be narrow. Plus that bark is thick typical of s. elm in an arid climate.
Not as good as b.l. for fire wood but still will work.
I will try to get some bark pictures today of each.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: woodtroll on March 04, 2010, 09:22:44 AM
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16841/elm2.jpg)

S elm

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16841/blacklocust2.jpg)

black locust


Images are small here you can see them better in my album.

Fixed that. SwampDonkey ;)
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: beenthere on March 04, 2010, 10:42:27 AM

Images are small here you can see them better in my album.


You can sub these for the full-size pics from your gallery by modifying your post. Didn't see these thumbnails in your gallery. :)
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 04, 2010, 01:06:39 PM
That's the black locust bark I see up here. And I don't see that in the original post.

The elm bark posted is pretty typical of a large diameter elm you see up here , even though we only have American Elm. When they die it slips off the trunk in large sheets.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on March 05, 2010, 09:07:14 AM
sorry   but im having probs getting these shots where i want them to be!!!
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on March 05, 2010, 09:12:12 AM
Meant to ask at the last post....and forgot.....If the tree was.....is......elm......it wouldnt split well......????
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: WDH on March 05, 2010, 09:50:26 AM
Meant to ask at the last post....and forgot.....If the tree was.....is......elm......it wouldnt split well......????

Nope.  Elm has spiral grain and is a bad actor when it comes to splitting. 

The picture you posted does not offer enough detail of the end grain nor the bark to make an ID.  Hopefully you can get the picture posting thing worked and give us a little more detail.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Dodgy Loner on March 05, 2010, 09:56:19 AM
I'm throwing my hat into the black locust camp.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: beenthere on March 05, 2010, 10:36:15 AM
sorry   but im having probs getting these shots where i want them to be!!!

Looks like you haven't set up your own gallery yet. I think that is the first step.  :)

Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 05, 2010, 11:33:40 AM
He's got a gallery, but I fed him the wrong number for the link from here.

Should be 13536  not 103536
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on March 09, 2010, 10:17:11 AM
i DO appreciate the help......and I'm gonna go with B L.......i'll letcha know next winter what a hot fire it makes!!!
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Ron Wenrich on March 13, 2010, 07:35:00 AM
Here's some more of Roscoe's pictures:

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13536/2732/012.JPG)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13536/2732/007.JPG)

I ain't buying black locust.  I'm leaning more to the elm. 

I've got some ash I can't split with a maul, even though ash is supposed to be easy to split.  I've split some hickory with ease, even though its supposed to be hard to split.  I even had some elm that was easy to split. 
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: PoDunk on March 13, 2010, 11:15:59 AM
I just took these pictures of a BL log that was in my wood pile, me and dad just cut around 30 cord of this about a month and a half ago.
In the picture of the split log you can see the maul that I just used to split it and two hits made three pieces of firewood about 24" long with a lite swing.
The wood darkens to a dark honey color after its exposed to the air for a week or two.
Looks like the same stuff to me.
One thing I have noticed is the bark frome a young tree looks different from an older tree and also varies depending where its located on the tree.... but im for sure no expert !
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16202/1515/bl.jpg)
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16202/1515/bl2.jpg)
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16202/1515/bl3.jpg)
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: WDH on March 13, 2010, 11:13:06 PM
With the additional pics, I am with Ron.  Definitely not black locust.  With that cinnamon color just under the outer bark, it looks sassafrassy.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 14, 2010, 04:21:16 AM
WDH, that's what I came up with at first. It's not fresh cut and I detected some stain in an earlier picture.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: stonebroke on March 14, 2010, 09:29:39 AM
That would have made a very good fence post or several  !!

Stonebroke
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: WDH on March 14, 2010, 11:59:18 AM
BTW, awesome pics, PoDunk  8).
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Ron Wenrich on March 14, 2010, 08:06:57 PM
I've noticed the smell of a freshly split piece of this.....reminds me of the odor of the holding pen on the dairy, on a wet day, after the Holsteins were all milked and gone!!!

If it was sassafras, I doubt he would have used that discription of the way it smells.  ;)
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: WDH on March 14, 2010, 08:42:33 PM
Yep, cows and sassafras are not all that compatible  :).  Maybe it is a cow oak  :D. 

Well, that would be appropriate I guess, but it is definitely not a cow oak (swamp chestnut oak).
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 15, 2010, 04:40:19 AM
Well, depends and you guys have more experience with those species than me. But, if it were not fresh and laid about a few months to get stain, I believe it would stink or go sour a bit no matter what it was. :D
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Ron Wenrich on March 15, 2010, 05:55:34 AM
Not true.  I've sawn sassafras that's been cut over a year.  It doesn't stink.  Same goes for the other dense hardwoods.  The only ones that have a natural stinkyness are black gum and elm.  Oak that have bacterial infections will also stink, but without it there is no sour smell.  If tulip poplar is cut during the hot summer, it will turn sour, but the sapwood will also turn color.  Even then, it doesn't have a barnyard smell.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 15, 2010, 06:26:13 AM
Maple and yellow birch turn sour and can smell it in the house when my wood is stacked. It's not a pungent smell, but different from when it was first sawed. It does dissipate when it dries good though. As far as sassafras you would know more about it than I. Sassafras is suppose to have a spicy smell to the bark I guess. Anyway, my guess is still sassafras or elm, but not black locust. I know elm does stink like a horse stall. But they used elm on the floor under horse stalls up here. :D


Ron, that darn edit button had me editing your post by mistake. I put it back though, I think. :D
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: WDH on March 15, 2010, 05:16:04 PM
If it is elm, then the latewood pores will be arranged in distinct wavy bands.  It should be easy with that test to determine if it is elm.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Ron Wenrich on March 15, 2010, 05:29:23 PM
Does this help?

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13536/2732/009.JPG) 

On the right hand side there is some end grain of a piece of wood. I don't know if its from the same tree, but it isn't oak.  Kinda looks like elm.  I'm pulling these out of Roscoe's gallery. 
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 15, 2010, 06:13:26 PM
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_Endgrain2.jpg)

Here's the pore ribbon pattern in American elm. Can't mistake it I don't think. Should be similar in other elms. Latewood is fairly narrow in this sample, can see where the larger earlywood pores fade out toward the end of each ring. The an abrupt line and a new set of early wood pores in the succeeding growth increment.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on March 16, 2010, 10:25:03 PM
i haven't been around for the past few...but appreciate all the work you guys are doing on this......wish i could help more....Ive seen some talk about the wood Ive shown been cut for awhile......i split and photographed it same day it was cut.... i have noticed it has turned a bit of a tan color since.
I remember the elm at home in mo as a kid.   my dad had a special name for it....indicative of the moisture within...  :)....it would not split...You could lose your ax in it!!  I'm wondering if other elms are the same.....

I don't think I'm gonna buy elm based on the fact that I split most of it with an ax; even the pieces that were like 24" diam.

Nevertheless...I've gotten super curious now.  My new plan of attack....find where Pedro cut this tree...talk to his customer see what I can find out......Maybe that tree had a sibling and leaves are coming soon here .....I'll let ya'z  know!
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: pineywoods on March 16, 2010, 10:36:44 PM
could be catalpa, yeah they do get that big...
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Brian Beauchamp on March 17, 2010, 12:52:22 AM
Looks like a pecan to me. Bark is highly variable between varieties, but can almost have a black walnut resemblance at times. Wood can be kind of stinky, too. The bird pecks in his gallery show the layered tendency of the bark as well. If you scrape off the bark with a knife or just pick at it, I bet it will come off/break apart in layers.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 17, 2010, 05:17:12 AM
Tough sugar maple can also be a bit stringy to when splitting. It's actually quite splintery. I get a couple wheel barrels of splints from every delivery of firewood on a 1.5 cord load. The rings seem to be quite wide in one photo. Don't know the scale.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Ron Wenrich on March 17, 2010, 05:43:58 AM
I've had hickory that you couldn't even split with a maul, then I've had hickory that split like ash.  Who's to say that every elm has to be a monster to split?  Besides, we're talking Siberian elm.  I have a couple in my yard, and the bark is pretty much the same.

I'll throw another possibility out - Kentucky coffee tree.  But, I don't think it has the odor that Roscoe's talking about.

I'm not buying catalpa.  The ones I've cut have been more of a straw color with little sapwood.  I don't recall any odor. 
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 17, 2010, 06:08:04 AM
They use a lot of American elm for firewood in the Canadian prairies. Some western provinces post signs about transporting it and dutch elm. My cousin cut and split a 25 inch elm in his yard for firewood, used a splitter.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: WDH on March 17, 2010, 10:56:42 PM
I am settling on hickory too.  The bark is not scaly enough to be pecan/
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 18, 2010, 03:44:51 AM
Does hickory have narrow sapwood like the walnuts? The bark doesn't look like black locust, which is thick, interlocked and fibrous. I think black locust heart has a yellowish brown tinge.

No.

Well we've come full circle. :D :D Since my first post.

I just don't see the banding coloration in the bark for elm.

I'll never second guess myself again. ;)
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: woodtroll on March 18, 2010, 10:55:54 AM
All right if not S. elm and its a hickory, I can't buy that it is pecan. To much dark heart wood. My first thought with hickory would be mockernut, http://www.forestryimages.org/browse/subimages.cfm?SUB=3266, shows some images. The dark wood throws me for mockernut, it tends to have a small heart.  I have seen pignut with a lot of dark wood but the bark is different.
The coloring of the wood pushes me back to S elm, even with out the string-e-ness.
I think I have reached the end of cyber deduction from a few pictures of firewood. 
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Brian Beauchamp on March 18, 2010, 11:21:38 AM
It could be a black hickory, but I'm still leaning toward pecan because of this pic:

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13536/2732/010.JPG)

...and where is everyone getting that this has a really dark heartwood? Not really that much darker than the sapwood to me.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Brian Beauchamp on March 18, 2010, 11:25:02 AM
...unless this is from the same log in his gallery :):

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13536/2732/009.JPG)
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: Brian Beauchamp on March 18, 2010, 11:26:57 AM
...but all of these look like they have much lighter-colored heartwood :) :

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13536/2732/012.JPG)
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: roscoe234 on March 18, 2010, 02:20:46 PM
the upper picture was fresh split for this session....in the lower picture the wood had been split for several days......Pedro, the fellow who cut the tree down, told me originally it was some kind of maple.....ya dont spoze he's right????
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: SwampDonkey on March 18, 2010, 04:38:04 PM
Rings seem too distinct to be maple I'm familiar with. Looks rings porous.
Title: Re: What is it
Post by: WDH on March 18, 2010, 09:16:35 PM
Nope, not maple.  It is definitely ring porous.