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General Forestry => Ask The Forester => Topic started by: Andy B. on August 27, 2013, 10:50:24 PM

Title: questions on eastern white pine in eastern PA
Post by: Andy B. on August 27, 2013, 10:50:24 PM
As I've been doing some research, I am leaning towards putting in some eastern white pine.  Before I go setting myself up for failure, I have a bunch of questions.  In doing my research, it sounds as though EWP is native to PA, and have been found throughout the state.  There are a handful of what I believe are EWP around my property, mainly in one spot on a hill along a stream.  I would guess that any large ones would have been logged out 100 years ago when a small slate quarry was in the area.  I'd like to order maybe 100-200 seedlings, figuring some infant mortality and whitetail deer loss.  I'd be happy if 40 of them made it to 10' tall, and hopefully live to get much taller.

1- For best results would I want to plan these in an open area with no canopy, or can they be somewhat shaded?  Would they be okay along the edges of existing stands of trees?

2- In several of the areas there is some brush and weeds and poison ivy.  Assuming I want to plant these seedlings in the spring of 2014, should I put a few applications of glyphosate down now before everything dies for the winter?

3- One of the areas I am thinking of planting a small stand is along a stream.  The bank of the stream is about 3'-4' above the normal water level of the stream.  About every 3 or 4 years we will get a major storm where the stream will flood it's banks for a day and then recede.  Normally the stream is at the lower level and it is rare it goes up more than a few inches even with a heavy rain.  Would EWP do okay in this type of area, or is this too much water?  The area normally has grass, day lilies, and multiflora rose that I run over with the brush hog a few times a year.  It isn't wet or swampy.

4- Are there any reasons a landowner would normally choose NOT to plant EWP?

5- Any other tips or suggestions?

Thanks again for any replies.

Andy B.
Title: Re: questions on eastern white pine in eastern PA
Post by: Clark on August 28, 2013, 07:02:15 AM
1- For best results would I want to plan these in an open area with no canopy, or can they be somewhat shaded?  Would they be okay along the edges of existing stands of trees?

Planting in more open areas would give you the best results. If you want to plant them under existing cover, then plant them under a gap in the canopy and areas where it is thinner. If the ground is 50% shade and 50% sun around noontime then you should be good.  I would hesitate to plant if there is more than 50% shade.

2- In several of the areas there is some brush and weeds and poison ivy.  Assuming I want to plant these seedlings in the spring of 2014, should I put a few applications of glyphosate down now before everything dies for the winter?

I would scalp the soil where you are going to plant them, when you plant them.  Bring a shovel or hoe along with you and pull back the top layer of soil (mostly roots and lots of seed) in a roughly 1' square. Plant the tree in the middle of the scalp.

3- One of the areas I am thinking of planting a small stand is along a stream.  The bank of the stream is about 3'-4' above the normal water level of the stream.  About every 3 or 4 years we will get a major storm where the stream will flood it's banks for a day and then recede.  Normally the stream is at the lower level and it is rare it goes up more than a few inches even with a heavy rain.  Would EWP do okay in this type of area, or is this too much water?  The area normally has grass, day lilies, and multiflora rose that I run over with the brush hog a few times a year.  It isn't wet or swampy.

If the pine don't get inundated their first year then things should be ok for them.  If the flooding occurs during the dormant season then it's no big deal. I would guess that the white pine would do fine there, when they get established. You might lose more in that spot the first couple years due to flooding but if it only floods once every 3 or 4 years I would go ahead and do it.

4- Are there any reasons a landowner would normally choose NOT to plant EWP?

The continued maintenance of putting bud caps on for the first 4-10 years.

5- Any other tips or suggestions?

Do you plan on bud capping?

Clark
Title: Re: questions on eastern white pine in eastern PA
Post by: WDH on August 28, 2013, 07:53:13 AM
Not sure how hilly or steep your ground is, but I believe that EWP does best on a South facing slope if there is a lot of topography. 
Title: Re: questions on eastern white pine in eastern PA
Post by: banksiana on August 28, 2013, 08:02:38 AM
White pine was very much a part of PA landscape.  It is coming back now but has the regular hurdles to leap.  Exotics competition, tip weevil, deer, blister rust.  Depending on your population of deer in that area, you could bud cap or fence.  Are you trying to replace hemlock as they die?  White pine would be a good choice.  I was at Penn State experimental forest last week and looked at a couple projects they are doing with white pine.  You could call them and ask for some advise. 
Title: Re: questions on eastern white pine in eastern PA
Post by: Andy B. on August 28, 2013, 09:41:06 PM
Thanks for the replies!

Yes, I have been reading about bud capping and that is what I'll do if I plant.  The fawns do enjoy young apple tree wood as well.  :laugh:

The areas I'm looking at are relatively flat, or on a southwestern slope.

Not much hemlock around that I see.  This is more of an open area or area with a lot of brush that I am thinking about.  One spot used to be filled by a large oak tree that was blown over during Sandy so now there is a decent-sized opening in the canopy.  I am thinking that my "window" (pardon the pun) to plant these will start closing if I let nature takes its course.  That was one reason I asked just how open it needs to be.  I don't have any large open fields at present, so I couldn't start with something like five clear acres to do this.  Just several 1/4-1/2 acre open spots.

I have started downloading the soil reports for Northampton county and reading more on EWP habitat.  I'll give PSU a call.

Andy B.
Title: Re: questions on eastern white pine in eastern PA
Post by: thecfarm on August 28, 2013, 09:44:56 PM
I have done some logging on my land and the deer don't bother the regen of the EWP at all. I kinda wish they would a little. It's so thick you really can't walk through it. Now those suckers on the maples stumps are like candy to them. They don't miss a one of them. I know in some areas of PA there are ALOT of deer.
I could google it,but others will want to know too. What is bud capping?
Title: Re: questions on eastern white pine in eastern PA
Post by: mesquite buckeye on August 28, 2013, 10:11:05 PM
I put in 50 EWP and 50 red pine when we put in trees for our CRP in Missouri in 1999. By the end of the second year, the deer had either pulled them out by the roots or eaten them to death. Most they got the first season.

I also planted ponderosa pine from 3 western sources, SW white pine, and lodgepole pine two or three years before that. The deer beat the heck out of them, killing maybe 2/3 of them in the first few years. We piled red cedar prunings around the survivors so they could build some leaf mass. The biggest ponderosa pine (California stock, believe it or not) now is probably 20 some feet tall and 6-8"dbh. That one was just a few feet from a deer trail, but for some reason they never noticed it and it was untouched. Most of the beat up stuff is now 8-15 ft tall, 3-6" dbh. Deer can be really tough on any planting if there are big numbers like we have.
Title: Re: questions on eastern white pine in eastern PA
Post by: Andy B. on August 29, 2013, 08:53:14 PM

I could google it,but others will want to know too. What is bud capping?

Covering the terminal bud at the top of the tree with something so the deer don't eat it.  I have read several methods posted here on the forum.  You only need to do it when the trees are young and tasty.  ;D  Once they get too tall for the deer to eat you can stop.

Andy B.
Title: Re: questions on eastern white pine in eastern PA
Post by: mesquite buckeye on August 29, 2013, 09:04:36 PM
I can see where that could help if the pressure is not too high. On my pines they chewed them back to 1/2" thick stems and the bucks busted up more of the bigger trees and skinned the trunks. Pretty deer are so cute. >:(

But they are good to eat. ;D 8) 8) 8) 8)