The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: concretecutter on January 03, 2016, 05:49:24 PM

Title: Cold weather starting
Post by: concretecutter on January 03, 2016, 05:49:24 PM
Does anybody connect there heater hoses from there pickup to the equipment and let it run for 10-15 minutes sure worked good today when I got everything to do it fired right off
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: red on January 03, 2016, 05:51:55 PM
I was told getting hot air into the air intake was a good idea. Too
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: ehp on January 03, 2016, 06:13:48 PM
Use to use that setup a lot when I had the 450 jack with the 4-53 in it , Most guys used them up north. The only thing you need to watch is when you hook the machine up to the pickup let it idle , donot rev the pickup motor up until you feel abit of heat coming on the return hose back to the pickup, Seen a lot of guys rev the pickup up as soon as its hooked up and crack the head on the pickup motor with the ice cold water hits it coming from the machine your heating
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: concretecutter on January 03, 2016, 06:30:37 PM
Thanks for the heads up
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Ken on January 03, 2016, 06:31:11 PM
Used to do it years ago.  We had a valve on the line so we could control the amount of coolant being transferred.   I'm pretty sure someone will chime in to say that you should not do this with newer trucks.  I think a small generator with a block heater, good batteries with clean connections is a much better option. 
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Brleclaire on January 03, 2016, 06:46:52 PM
Use to use them all the time now are new machines have the diesel fired coolant heaters. When we get there in the morning the engines are warm and they also warm the hydralic oil. Won't have another machine without one.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: concretecutter on January 03, 2016, 06:50:54 PM
I put valves and quick disconnects I have two brand new battery's wires starter etc but still older diesel won't start of its 20 degrees or colder with out either just thought I would put it out there so others can enjoy the setup I know a lot of people use it
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: 62oliver on January 03, 2016, 06:56:07 PM
I have those quick connect hoses on my 4-53 in a TJ 240, was not planning on using them tho.  I think I will put in a block heater or a circulating heater as hoses are there already. Will use generator to power. Any opinions as to which works better?
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Gearbox on January 03, 2016, 07:02:38 PM
We used to use them all the time . Only thing to watch is the coolant leval in both units . If one is low it will take  coolant out of your truck .
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Plankton on January 03, 2016, 07:28:24 PM
I have been wanting to get this together for starting my 353. What length hoses did you have made concrete cutter?

I have been having good luck so far with shooting a propane torch into the air intake and heating up the air, usually starts on the first try down to 15 or so with no ether.

Another method I have heard of but never tried is piping the exhaust from your truck under the engine and heating the oil without burning the skidder down like a fire could.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Woodhauler on January 03, 2016, 07:33:04 PM
I have been wanting to get this together for starting my 353. What length hoses did you have made concrete cutter?

I have been having good luck so far with shooting a propane torch into the air intake and heating up the air, usually starts on the first try down to 15 or so with no ether.

Another method I have heard of but never tried is piping the exhaust from your truck under the engine and heating the oil without burning the skidder down like a fire could.
The exhaust method is used a lot, and also a block heater run off a genni! Get  there a hour or so before work and let it run! Starts right up.Back in the day my dads old 1964 timberjack had a propane heater built into it! Hook up a 100 pound tank and light it before you went home. Never could figure out why it never burned.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Plankton on January 03, 2016, 07:39:16 PM
A friend of a friend used to start his skidder by lighting brush under neath it like any good ol time vermonter would. One below zero morning he lit the fire and drove to town to get coffee at the local diner. Came back to a burnt skidder.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: starmac on January 03, 2016, 07:59:23 PM
Our local mills logging crew has them on all their equipment, they waste enough time getting everything fired up to pay for webasto heaters every week, there cutoff point is 25 below to fire up.
One other logger I haul for keeps a genset running all night, so his stuff cranks up when he gets there, but is thinking of going the webasto route.
Another logger I haul for has a propane setup, he doesn't leave it hooked up at night, but it takes an hour or so to warm it on cool mornings, on cold mornings I equate it with using a bic lighter, and we have to hook a hose on his pickup exhaust to to warm the propane bottle to kep it burning. lol
The only high production crew around these parts have webastos with 7 day timers on all their equipment, everything is warm when they show up in the mornings.
I just installed one on my log truck incase I have to leave it outside overnight. I was unlucky enough to get to test it out just a couple of days later, now am thinking about putting one on my other truck and even pickup.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: concretecutter on January 03, 2016, 08:14:10 PM
I went to l&m supply and got everything bought 2 6' heater hoses 5/8" there a bit short I think 8' would be better two valves 4 quick connects two tees and some other fittings 14 hose clamps
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: concretecutter on January 03, 2016, 08:17:51 PM
I thought about a generator and block heater but I wanted something I always have and not have to worry about gas or getting generator started or waiting an hour
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on January 03, 2016, 08:30:17 PM
If you want to be able to work all winter long without having to guess if your equipment will start or not then a Webasto/Pro heat/Espar is money well spent. For not much investment you can show up everyday to a machine that is warmed up and ready to go to work as soon as you step out of your pickup.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 03, 2016, 08:46:57 PM
I've used quick connects off my pickup for 25 years. No valves. 2, 12 ft  5/8 hoses. Hook up and by the time I sharpen my saw and drink a cup of coffee my machine starts like summer time. The only trick is a clean cooling system on the machine using the exact same coolant as your truck. Never a problem with truck or machine. Don't over think things.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: BargeMonkey on January 03, 2016, 08:57:34 PM
 I've been doing the genset- block heater when necessary. Always wondered about the spit-swappers set up, when I bought this 460 the guy gave me the whole set up for it. So nothing huge to worry about ? Rarely see them down here, my Timbco came out of the U.P and had them, and 3 other machines have them.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: 1270d on January 03, 2016, 09:15:01 PM
We had quick couplers on the first processor.  It took about 30-40 minutes total for startup time, this includes trading coolant to warm the engine, and allowing the engine to run for a few minutes before operating.   With the preheaters, it is 5-10 minutes.   
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: BargeMonkey on January 03, 2016, 10:04:15 PM
 My mechanic priced the heater for me.   :o. You guys are pounding it every day, I've put 800 hrs on my buncher in 4yrs.   ;)   planning on yanking my 440D engine for a clutch soon, I think she may get swappers to. Got 11,800 on the original clutch, got 11,700 out of the original starter. So other than clean coolant anything else to watch for ? Do you guys have a filter hooked up in your system ?
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: ehp on January 03, 2016, 10:35:53 PM
I never had filters on any of mine , I know my 4-53 would start in 30 plus below with no problems using the hook ups , once you unhooked them and the water from the skidders rad started getting to its motor it would start rolling big time  ;D, I just had quick couplers and everyone I seen here had the same and its pretty much like this, if your pickup starts and gets you to work there is no reason your skidder or machines will not start
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: concretecutter on January 03, 2016, 10:45:06 PM
I don't but I did have that thought interested in others setups
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: FFLM on January 04, 2016, 04:45:29 AM
I have a 2 or 2.5 K Kats circulating heater on my 208 Jack w/ 353.  1/2 an hour if it is cold -10 to 10 above and she fires up nice. Below -10 it can take 45 minutes to fire up, I thought about the spit swappers but decided on this and am very happy with the decision.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Gary_C on January 04, 2016, 11:56:42 AM
I know that many loggers do this split swapping but it can be very hard on your pickup engine because of the cold shock of the cold antifreeze hitting a warm engine components. If you have a newer pickup, it will void your engine warranty if the dealer sees those connections. It's especially hard on engines with aluminum parts.

So be aware of the downside.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: concretecutter on January 04, 2016, 06:11:05 PM
Pictures of my setup so others can see   

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35813/image~2.jpeg)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35813/image~2.jpeg)
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: concretecutter on January 04, 2016, 06:13:08 PM
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35813/image~3.jpeg)
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 04, 2016, 08:12:16 PM
I know that many loggers do this split swapping but it can be very hard on your pickup engine because of the cold shock of the cold antifreeze hitting a warm engine components. If you have a newer pickup, it will void your engine warranty if the dealer sees those connections. It's especially hard on engines with aluminum parts.

So be aware of the downside.

When I pull into the landing the truck temp is about 180, hook up and it never goes below 140. Not much of a shock.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: beenthere on January 04, 2016, 08:20:41 PM
Pictures of my setup so others can see   

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35813/image~2.jpeg)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35813/image~2.jpeg)

No pics showing... ??
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: concretecutter on January 04, 2016, 09:01:19 PM
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35813/image~4.jpeg)
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: starmac on January 04, 2016, 09:31:54 PM
The mills company pickups all have these and they are duramaxes, which have aluminum heads iirc, no engine problems.
The logger I am currantly hauling for needs something and talked to ford about it, all they told him was he would have to change the antifreeze in his machine to match the pickup.
The logging crew that does use them, does not work at temps below 25 below though.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Gary_C on January 05, 2016, 01:52:40 AM

When I pull into the landing the truck temp is about 180, hook up and it never goes below 140. Not much of a shock.

Did you know if you stood with one foot in a bucket of boiling water and one foot in a bucket of ice water, on the average you would be comfortable.  ::)

Put that engine temperature gauge sender where that cold water hits the block and see what the thermal shock is.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: David-L on January 05, 2016, 06:15:42 AM
I have had good luck with gen set and a 750watt block heater on my jack with a 353 Detroit. By the time I am ready to go ( 20 or so min ) she fires right up. try to never use either but a quick snort from a warm can is sometimes better the grinding the 30MT starter to death.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 05, 2016, 08:23:32 AM
Gary, how many years of actual experience do you have with this type of pre-heat? How many engines have you personally seen damaged by this practice? I'm wagering the answer is none.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Gary_C on January 05, 2016, 05:08:53 PM
Gary, how many years of actual experience do you have with this type of pre-heat? How many engines have you personally seen damaged by this practice? I'm wagering the answer is none.

You lose your wager.

The risk is real and all I am saying is:


So be aware of the downside.

Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Plankton on January 05, 2016, 05:34:48 PM
I think it would be helpful to hear the specifics around the engine failure gary. I am in the process of getting this setup together this week hopefully and simply being aware that there is a downside will not help me avoid damage or prevent it.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: OH logger on January 05, 2016, 05:35:44 PM
I too have the generator on the truck all winter long and plug in the block heaters on the equipment. half hour does a  lot of good
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: s grinder on January 05, 2016, 06:18:49 PM
I think the big issue would be make sure you have the same type of coolant in both vehicles
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 05, 2016, 08:17:24 PM
Gary's not talking for a reason. 4 decades or more of this pre- heat system and I've never even heard of never mind seen a problem. Let's see, how many $1000 for a self contained pre heat system? How much for a generator ? And then it's got to be maintained and kept locked up when your not babysitting it, plus an hour or so for 80-100 water temp.When  I went in today it was 5 degrees above. Hooked up 2 jumper hoses. By the time my saw was sharp and all my stuff loaded into the machine ( about 20 minutes tops ) my rig started like it was July. All for less than $100 not including a coolant flush that the machine deserved anyway. As for shock cooling remember there are 4 sets of quick connects. They are a big restriction in the fluid transfer. Slow flow means no shock. Of corse th truck motor got a good shock leaving home when the thermostat opened and a radiator ful of 5 degree coolant hit th block but we'll ignore that out of consideration for Gary. He's obviously fact adverse.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: beenthere on January 05, 2016, 08:24:18 PM
Hope you can keep this forum friendly, and not bashing members. Just sayin... State your opinion and let it go.. at that.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: OntarioAl on January 06, 2016, 12:11:30 AM
I used them when I first started out as  did many of the small operators.
I was and many of my fellow loggers were never comfortable using them to warm up  machines that were "cold soaked" over night or weekend in -35F to -40F. even though the ambient temperature had risen to a balmy -20F, for various reasons some of them already cited. 
A lot of us gravitated to these propane "hot boxes" which work on convection to circulate the antifreeze.
 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/25098/230_heater_setup.jpg)
The set up is exactly the same except you are using a stand alone system and not your truck's cooling system.
Al
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: red on January 06, 2016, 05:21:52 AM
I have seen some military hot box heaters that run on Diesel . Half hour sounds about right.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: 47sawdust on January 06, 2016, 06:52:47 AM
Ontario Al,
 Is that hot box still being made?Looks like a good idea to me.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: OntarioAl on January 06, 2016, 08:16:01 AM
They were popular thirty years ago. I do not think that they are made anymore.
Al
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 06, 2016, 08:23:10 AM
Sometimes it's tough to keep it friendly when people intentionally confuse opinion and fact. I just read here that a lot of guys didn't like the idea of a transfusion into a cold soaked motor. Notice the poster never said it caused a failure. He just said some guys didn't like it. That's the difference. He knows opinion from fact. The fact is until our Detroit powered  machines became available with Cummins power we were stuck pre heating and still have to at severely cold temps.  At that point in time ( 30years ago)  there were few other widely available means of heating the motor. No programmable Pro Heat, no small, inexpensive generators, just your pickup an jumper hoses. Detroit supplied the block plates with nipples and you built the rest. I've got over 1 million miles on trucks with heater hook ups that have been used every winter without any problems. Funny how there's no direct reference to someone who's had trouble, just " I'm warning you".
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: beenthere on January 06, 2016, 10:45:41 AM
JH
Nothing to get worked up about.. opinions and experiences vary. 
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Grandpa on January 06, 2016, 07:59:23 PM
Do any of you have any long term, real world experience mixing green and red antifreeze? I've been told it is a no no  and wonder what happens in the real world.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 06, 2016, 08:11:35 PM
I have none. When I got my 04 dodge it used HOAT coolant. I drained and flushed the forwarder and refilled with matching coolant. My 15 uses OAT coolant so I changed out the machine again. I know some coolants claim to mix with any but I prefer to run what comes in the truck. It's an opportunity to flush the machine system and for $30 give or take its piece of mind. Sorry I'm not more help.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on January 06, 2016, 08:53:17 PM
I haven't done it for a few years but used it all the time when I was farming. I used stainless ball valves to control the coolant flow so as not to heat shock the cold engine or cold shock the hot engine. I had built a small control box with the 3 valves mounted solid in it with in and out temp gauges that I mounted under the hood of the service truck with the aluminum cam lock quick disconnects on the valves. I used 3/4 inch heater hose. Service truck was a ford F250 with a 460 in it and I was running a 192* thermostat in it in winter. I used 3 valves. One was a mixing valve that made sure I was not dumping pure hot or pure cold in either direction.
 

I kept the hot engine at minimum 150* F and slowly adjusted the valves as the cold engine warmed up. I let it run till the cold one was holding 120* or above for 10 minutes. The target temp of 150* was to keep the thermostat on the service truck closed so that ALL the cooling the 460 required was coming from the cold engine. At minus 40*F it took 45 minutes to an hour to warm up a 466 John Deere or a 504 Case. The smaller 4 bangers took 30 to 45 minutes.

Also made sure that ALL engines I used it on had the same type of antifreeze but in the 70s and 80s that wasn't much of an issue.

ALL of the above is based on general knowledge of what can happen with cold or hot shock. I never had any issues of any kind with my little control box and it  was likely over kill. But the peace of mind that that little box gave me was worth every cent it cost to build. I know quite few guys scoffed me for wasting the money on it and I don't know weather any of them ever had issues because of the potential shock factor. What I know for a fact is that it kept me from ever have to find out the hard way.   
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: chevytaHOE5674 on January 06, 2016, 08:57:35 PM
Last winter my mechanic had a Duramax sitting in his shop that had a cracked head. Logger plugged in his stone cold skidder at -25* F and within a minute the head was cracked. I've always heard of spit swabbing causing motor troubles but this was the first time I'd seen it first hand.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Grandpa on January 06, 2016, 09:41:46 PM
Jhenderson, I also heard (more internet wisdom) that if you put red or pink antifreeze in an engine designed for green that a chemical reaction would cause the head gasket to fail. The same thing was supposed to happen if you put green antifreeze in an  engine designed for red or pink.

Is it safe for me to assume that you have had all three kinds in the same engine with no head gasket trouble?

Also, what engine do you have?

Thanks        ???    ::)
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Gary_C on January 07, 2016, 01:30:52 AM
Sometimes it's tough to keep it friendly when people intentionally confuse opinion and fact.

 Funny how there's no direct reference to someone who's had trouble, just " I'm warning you".

Sorry to have been busy with other things and have now come back to this issue to find you are having difficulty being friendly. 

I have some difficulty understanding your point when you seem to vigorously defend this practice and at the same time deny there is any risk with the split swapping practice. As others have since related, there are certainly factual cases of trouble and though I earlier did not feel it necessary to get into specific cases as I just related a simple cautionary note that there were issues, I will tell you of just one of many cases where I have personal knowledge.

A logger I know had a fairly new pickup which was still under warranty and he had some engine issues and took the pickup back to the dealer for service. When the mechanic saw the split swappers, the dealer voided the engine warranty and refused to service the engine problems. That alone is good reason to be cautious of the practice.

This cold shock issue is not just a problem with split swappers. Anybody with any sense knows better than to pour cold water into an overheated engine. It's all a matter of temperature difference.

Sorry, but denying that cold shock is an issue is beyond my understanding.  ::)
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 07, 2016, 08:39:13 AM
There are not cases listed. There's one case, second hand. That's in four decades. Everyone has heard there may be a problem, but they haven't had one. I was discussing this yesterday with a friend who's run an automotive machine shop for over 30 years. Probably more knowledgeable than anyone here. He stated emphaticly " there is not enough thermal difference in 250f degrees to crack a block or head. Almost 100 years ago folks learned as long a an engine is running you can add cold water to an over heated engine without damage. That's with scorching hot cylinder walls and head". Maybe they've learned something sense you broke the block on your modle A with a cold water refil. We also read where a member asked his dealer about it and was told no problem as long as the coolant matched. I think there's a lot more to your story than you know or may be letting on.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: beenthere on January 07, 2016, 10:24:24 AM
JH
I just read this "old sayin".. and think it fits...

Quote
If Danny Gary_C tells you it's Easter, I would say you better start dyeing eggs.    :D      (old saying my younger late brother would say)
    my edit...
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on January 07, 2016, 03:06:45 PM
JH I have repaired more than one engine from cold shock for other people too many times HOWEVER it was from the failure of water to water heat exchanger failures on irrigation engines.

I have fixed over heated engines that were running as cold water was added to them. coolant level was too low and the heads cracked.

I am 100% sure that a split swapper WILL cause a problem IF they are not used properly and with caution.

My  experience in fixing engines is the reason I built my little control box and the basic design comes from a hot water heating system that was in my dairy barn designed to keep from dumping straight cold water into heating chamber of the boiler. The guy that installed the heating system in the barn pretty much made a drwaing and provided the parts for the control box and then taught me how to use it.
 

I treated my hot, running engine as the boiler in the system. The other engine was the cold cement slab that need to be warmed up.

Like I said it was probably over kill BUT I never had a problem by being cautious.   
 
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Gary_C on January 07, 2016, 05:42:32 PM
I was discussing this yesterday with a friend who's run an automotive machine shop for over 30 years. Probably more knowledgeable than anyone here. He stated emphaticly " there is not enough thermal difference in 250f degrees to crack a block or head.

Sorry but you don't know me so your claim lacks credibility. What your friend stated is also proof of his lack of real knowledge of heat transfer, coefficient of thermal expansion, and temperature differences. So your credibility has been shattered as I have known since the beginning of this topic.

Denying that thermal shock can be a problem is beyond belief.  ::)
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: snowstorm on January 07, 2016, 05:48:03 PM
i used to use them. the last time was 25 yrs ago when one of the plastic tees broke and i got covered with antifreeze. as much as i paid for a new diesel pickup i would not even think of using them
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Ed_K on January 07, 2016, 06:22:51 PM
One benefit of the gen set and block heater is you can always put the geny in a sled or wagon and get it to the block heater. It worked for me this morning when I couldn't get the pickup up an icy hill to the skidder  :( ;D .
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on January 07, 2016, 07:27:39 PM
i know one guy that took a webasto heater and set it up on his service truck so he could use it heat cold engines in general instead of just one rig. Works real good and takes about a half hour to 45 minutes. for a good sized I6 engine.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: jd540b on January 07, 2016, 07:51:04 PM
I used them in my old truck with great success.  That being said, I agree with snowstorm-I wouldn't even think of putting them on my new pick-up.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Offthebeatenpath on January 08, 2016, 11:22:54 AM
X2 to JD540 and Snowstorm. 

To me, this topic (borderline argument) is similar to people debating the usefulness of a skid steer wood splitter. Some people love those splitters and we all should agree that they work. Some say that the actual costs and/or potential cost of maintenance on a skid steer engine/hydraulic system is not worth it, given that wood splitters are pretty cheap.

Personally, I removed the spit swapper that came with my 440D and installed a block heater that I love. It just seemed like the potential for engine damage was much less and I can always get my little generator to the skidder, where the same is not always true for the truck.

JHenderson- I generally really enjoy reading your posts, as you have years of valid experience to share. I can guarantee that you are a much better mechanic than I am with much more knowledge on that front. That said, when you make comments like your friend is "probably more knowledgable than anyone here", you make a mockery of every single person who contributes to this wonderful forum, yourself included. You might want to dial that back a bit, because offending everybody isn't a great way to get folks to listen to your point.

Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on January 08, 2016, 12:28:09 PM
A 2000 Watt circulating block heater will warm an engine up enough in an hour that they will generally start unless it 40* below with a stiff breeze. but a tarp wil help solve that wind exposure problem

 
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 08, 2016, 08:56:17 PM
Offthebeatenpath. I said what I did in full confidence. My friend in the machine shop holds NASE certification in automotive engine machining and repair as well as 4 other general disciplines. Has for 30 years.  Anybody else here hold those credentials? As for me not having any credibility, I simply consider the source of that remark. I left that on the playground long ago.  Over 30 years of the practice of coolant transfers with no trouble as well as watching at least 5 other crews in my state use the same setup with no problems tells the story. As for shocking the motor some of you are either ignoring or forgetting there are 4 sets of quick connects in the system. Combine that restriction with the fact that a water pump is incapable of making any real pressure and you'll see coolant isn't moving fast enough to shock cool anything.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: OH logger on January 08, 2016, 09:32:55 PM
A 2000 Watt circulating block heater will warm an engine up enough in an hour that they will generally start unless it 40* below with a stiff breeze. but a tarp wil help solve that wind exposure problem

 
that brings up a question I have always had. they say wind chill only affects living things by makin them colder, does it affect machines in a cold wind???
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Oliver05262 on January 08, 2016, 09:44:42 PM
 The wind chill affects living tissue by evaporating moisture off our skin, and the blood circulating through that tissue is cooled in turn. This evaporation will reduce the skin temperature below air temperature.
  Machinery does not have that evaporation effect, so the cold air can reduce the surface temperature no lower than the ambient temperature. It does, however, keep trying to cool that surface, so blocking the wind creates an insulation of still air around the metal you are trying to heat.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: OH logger on January 08, 2016, 10:40:10 PM
that makes sense . thanks
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: snowstorm on January 09, 2016, 08:46:00 AM
the way i see it is if you own it do what you want with it. heat it any way you want. if it causes a problem in a truck under warranty ford gm or dodge whoever built the truck can deny it. the dealer has to get approval on warranty work
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Skidder Kev on January 10, 2016, 11:28:21 AM
We have a 2800 suitcase genny that we bring to the job.  most of the time the skidder will start good up to -20c on its own but the skid steer doesnt like the cold. so at about 10am I will fire up the genny to get the skidsteer warming up and it will be ready for the boss when he gets out of the bush at 11-1130 so we can do the landing and have lunch.  Plus it will run a microwave so we can have a hot lunch too. 

Kev
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 10, 2016, 07:35:36 PM
Snowstorm, you're spot on. If the modification causes a problem, they can and will deny warranty. If you plug your cooling system because of dirty or uncompatible coolant in the skidder it's your problem. However they cannot deny warranty on unrelated matters. That falls under the Magnuson Moss Act which states that the manufacturer has the burden of proving your modification caused the failure before denying warranty.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Gary_C on January 10, 2016, 11:05:25 PM
However they cannot deny warranty on unrelated matters. That falls under the Magnuson Moss Act which states that the manufacturer has the burden of proving your modification caused the failure before denying warranty.

First you deny the warnings that many posters have made about your method which you feel compelled to defend while insulting the others on this form. Now you are dispensing some extremely dangerous legal advice. If you feel so strongly that you are right, why don't you next post your name, address, and bank account number so you can stand behind your very bad and dangerous advice?

I pity anyone that takes your legal advice because what you are doing with these split swappers is changing the intended use of the warm vehicle from transportation to being an external heat exchanger for another engine and not only will they be left with a very expensive repair bill but an even higher legal bill when your claim is dismissed and they are assessed legal costs from the dealer or manufacturer.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Bandmill Bandit on January 10, 2016, 11:40:44 PM
I know that stupid cant be fixed with any thing BUT duct tape does reduce the noise a LOT.

Mods; I'm sorry to have said it like this and this is not meant to offend but it is time to shut this one OFF.

Mr Henderson you need spend the rest of the year in detention and I think you owe a lot of people an apology.

Oh, Oh sorry i forgot this isn't junior High   

Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 11, 2016, 12:49:31 PM
Funny how warnings from folks with no personal experience count more than my 30+ years of using the system. Did anyone bother to look up Magnuson Moss? I didn't think so. As for insulting members; if telling the truth is an insult I'm guilty. I thought this site was for an exchange of information and ideas. Had I known it was intended to be a mutual admiration society I'd have looked elsewhere. If you really need to get in touch with me Send me a PM.As for a time out,all I need is a note from the moderator and I'll be gone for good.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: jd540b on January 11, 2016, 01:11:50 PM
Here's a thought.  If you are NOT worried about your truck-put spit swappers on. They do work great.  If you ARE worried, don't put them on.  Ego's Anyone???
Next topic.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Gary_C on January 11, 2016, 01:39:55 PM
I can't speak for the moderators but I for one do NOT want you to be "gone for good." This forum is very valuable for the information everyone can gain from all posters. Your success with this cold starting method is valuable for everyone to know in deciding the best way to start cold engines and we all know others that have had similar success with that method.

The problem has been when you dismiss other valuable members input on the risks of your method and insult their intelligence. That is where you crossed the line of being a valuable poster. No one has ever denied the truth of your experiences and we all know others that have had similar successes, but attacking other posters for pointing out the pitfalls of your chosen method is not welcome.

Now as far as your question about Magnuson Moss, I am familiar with the act and I did review it before I answered your question. So your "thinking" is not appropriate again. If you do read the act, you will find that warrantys must be in writing and in every warranty will state clearly by the manufacturer that it covers the vehicle for the specific "intended use". Any use outside of the intended use will void the warranty and even after the warranty has expired, that is a risk that most people, myself included are simply not willing to take. That unwillingness is not an attack on your method or personal experiences, it is simply a decision I/we have reached after evaluating all inputs.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Jhenderson on January 11, 2016, 07:07:12 PM
I'm going to say enough is enough. I've never been accused of being delicate. I did not mean to diminish anyone here on the forum, but I do stand by my facts. I won't respond again until someone posts a problem they ( not someone they heard of) had because of this practice. Anybody who wants more info can PM me.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: coxy on January 11, 2016, 07:45:13 PM
just my way of thinking  if it don't start with jumpers and a can of ether its to darn cold to work anyway  ;D that's my story and im sticking to it  :D :D
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Corley5 on January 11, 2016, 07:48:20 PM
I picked up a Kat's 1,500 watt circulating heater at Car Quest the other day for my 3-53.  I'll power it with my 2,500 watt genny once I get it installed :)  I've never needed heat for my Deutz.  It starts in really cold temps with just a whiff of ether.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Logger RK on January 11, 2016, 11:11:00 PM
I used 2 use pickup 2 heat up Eq but got a Hot Box heater. Runs off 12 volt & gas. Heats much faster then a pickup & has a exhaust pipe with very hot air that u can put towards oil pan or pumps. It'll heat a Mack 6 cyl from -30 to ready 2 start in 1/2 hour plus on Mack oil pan can b warmed. Also for my 5 cyl Deutz I can park next Skidder with 453 Deitriot & heat both at once with The Box. Blowing exhaust on the air cooled. But u have 2 watch that it's not aimed at the push rod covers or it'll heat the springs 2 much & the o rings leak.  Learned that the hard way. But if only starting the TF C5D with Deutz ill put salimander heater on it. Had -31 at 6am today so waited till 9am & temp was -10 & put sali on the 5 & less then 1/2 hour it was running. Tell it was pretty cold as stiff as the tranny was. I've rebuilt the 5 b 4 & they say hide the either can from the Duetze. With Deitroit's buy it by the case. Also if u don't have a thermometer, best way 2 tell if it's 2 cold 2 start Eq is if u pull motor oil dipstick out a foot & let go & it snaps back in u might as well go home & watch Gun Smoke.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: millcreek40 on January 12, 2016, 07:34:22 AM
I did have spit swappers on my 460 ford & I had heard the rumors about blowing head gaskets.  Long story short the 460 did blow a head gasket. Perhaps just a  coincidence ???? It was a jasper motor & when we took it apart the head bolts didn't seem like they were very tight to me. I now have a generator & a block heater.  They do work very well though & I know a lot of people who used them for years with no issues. My thought is when your truck or skidders thermostat first opens it getting the same cold antifreeze from whichever radiator 🤔🤔🤔
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: Logger RK on January 12, 2016, 07:35:40 AM
Now a day later & rembering back the reason I give up on pickup hook up was I got a different pickup & when it was below zero pickup would b warm & hook it up 2 cold Eq pickup would go 2 high idle like it was just started pushing anti freeze out the Eq being heated. But what ever works 4 somebody is just fine with me. That's y were called independent Logger's (or at least I am)👍
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: timberlinetree on January 13, 2016, 04:35:30 AM
The mistake I made was when Brookie and I built a box to put over the genny to keep the falling snow off of it. We cut a hole for exhaust but that was it. Fired it up and went chopping. Came back to a non running genny. Got to hot I guess. It was brand new but now is hard to start( I did change the oil right after that tho).
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: timberjack 240a on January 23, 2016, 01:30:41 PM
Last year was pretty cold here and was having trouble getting my 240 running. About 20 below. Thought about setting my pickup and log truck up with quick connects but decided i didn't want to be swapping antifreeze between that many engines. Was at a store and saw a "little buddy heater". Runs off of small camp stove propane tanks that sell for about $5 for a pair. Bought the heater, two tanks, and a small tarp. Everything was under $100. I just open an engine cover, set the heater on my axle and throw the tarp over it. About 15 minutes blowing on the fuel pump, filters, and air intake. Fires right up. Pretty cheap and doesn't take up much room in the truck. Nice to have if you need to work on saws in the cold too.
Title: Re: Cold weather starting
Post by: gspren on January 23, 2016, 01:53:40 PM
  You can get a hose and run that Little Buddy off a 20 lb bottle extra cheap.