The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Forestry and Logging => Topic started by: 1270d on May 30, 2016, 08:42:39 PM

Title: I don't quite understand....
Post by: 1270d on May 30, 2016, 08:42:39 PM
Why the 1x pine lumber in our local Lowe's store is stamped "product of New Zealand".
Is it possible to harvest, manufacture and ship the product here cheaper than sourcing US grown timber?   

Trying HiTech's lead in thread title :D
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: snowstorm on May 30, 2016, 09:08:13 PM
i read something a while back about lumber was being imported from finland and sweden because of the strong us dollar
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Corley5 on May 30, 2016, 10:11:25 PM
I've heard aspen pulp is being imported by rail to U.S. OSB mills because of the weak Canadian dollar  :(
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Ianab on May 30, 2016, 10:13:03 PM
I don't have the exact figures, but once you get something into a shipping container the distance it has to travel by sea is pretty much irrelevant.

Radiata pine grows like a weed here in NZ, makes 24"+ saw logs in a bit over 20 years, so it's pretty much farmed like you would corn, on any land that's marginal for grazing livestock.

I'm not even in one of the main forestry regions, but loads of pine logs like this are rolling though town all day.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10460/logtruck3-250113.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1359074259)
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: 4x4American on May 30, 2016, 10:15:47 PM
 :P
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: redprospector on May 30, 2016, 10:36:09 PM
A friend of mine bought a couple of bundles of 2x6x16' from Lowe's a while back. The tag on the end of the boards said Product of Austria I believe.
We pondered this same question for a while.  ???
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: newstick on May 30, 2016, 11:10:27 PM
How can our government keep letting this happen? I guess it's better to see jobs go over seas, and watch our timber burn or die and  then fall down.
Or it's like this let spend  millions of taxpayers money fighting fires and cleaning up dead trees. It's just stupidness.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Spartan on May 30, 2016, 11:36:21 PM
Quote from: newstick on May 30, 2016, 11:10:27 PM
How can our government keep letting this happen?

My guess is they figure natural resources will be the commodity of the future.  Let everyone else destroy the environment and we'll keep ours. 
Don't think they have figured out that buying it from someone who does it is just as bad as doing it.  OR... they can pass that off to the disgruntled public better as private business doing it.
Too bad they will drive us into debt so bad that we will never recover and all the countries that made money on their resources by us buying it  will own us (and our resources too) by then.

In reality though, I think that it just cost too much here vs elsewhere to make a board, and they can't reverse it now.  We already shot ourselves in the foot.

One mill around here ended up paying the feds almost as much in stumpage as they themselves pay a gypo for log tonage.  That aint right.
Feds wont even sell timber anymore it seems.  The ones that do get put up here in beautiful Bozeman area, most go up for lawsuit almost immediately.  Then the logger that had to put the money up front to win the bid has to have all that money tied up and sat on until it goes to court.  Who can really do that?  My pockets aren't deep enough for sure.

On the news in the last 5 months here, one of the larger mills around here reported their timber come mostly from Private with about 10% being State sales, and about 5% is fed sales.

We wanted to put a road through a corner of FS ground one time so we inquired about it.  They actually laughed at us and said no way, "we are trying to not do anything with timber anymore"  was one of the last remarks we heard.

Thats what I have experienced logging here in MT.

That's why wood is coming from other countries IMO.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: newstick on May 31, 2016, 12:02:56 AM
I here yeah! This country's getting so politically correct that pretty soon they'll be giving tickets if they here you fart.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: treeslayer2003 on May 31, 2016, 12:08:20 AM
Quote from: Spartan on May 30, 2016, 11:36:21 PM
Quote from: newstick on May 30, 2016, 11:10:27 PM
How can our government keep letting this happen?

My guess is they figure natural resources will be the commodity of the future.  Let everyone else destroy the environment and we'll keep ours. 
Don't think they have figured out that buying it from someone who does it is just as bad as doing it.  OR... they can pass that off to the disgruntled public better as private business doing it.
Too bad they will drive us into debt so bad that we will never recover and all the countries that made money on their resources by us buying it  will own us (and our resources too) by then.

In reality though, I think that it just cost too much here vs elsewhere to make a board, and they can't reverse it now.  We already shot ourselves in the foot.

One mill around here ended up paying the feds almost as much in stumpage as they themselves pay a gypo for log tonage.  That aint right.
Feds wont even sell timber anymore it seems.  The ones that do get put up here in beautiful Bozeman area, most go up for lawsuit almost immediately.  Then the logger that had to put the money up front to win the bid has to have all that money tied up and sat on until it goes to court.  Who can really do that?  My pockets aren't deep enough for sure.

On the news in the last 5 months here, one of the larger mills around here reported their timber come mostly from Private with about 10% being State sales, and about 5% is fed sales.

We wanted to put a road through a corner of FS ground one time so we inquired about it.  They actually laughed at us and said no way, "we are trying to not do anything with timber anymore"  was one of the last remarks we heard.

Thats what I have experienced logging here in MT.

That's why wood is coming from other countries IMO.
yup, i go to lowes and see what they want for them crappy 2x4s you can push a nail in with ya thumb, then see what i get for big beautiful yellow pine......makes ya sick.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Ianab on May 31, 2016, 12:40:10 AM
QuoteMy guess is they figure natural resources will be the commodity of the future.  Let everyone else destroy the environment and we'll keep ours.
Don't think they have figured out that buying it from someone who does it is just as bad as doing it

I don't think it's even that.

The wood you are talking about is basically "farmed", plantation grown trees. The European stuff may come from a more "natural" forest, but one that's been managed for timber production for centuries. Either way the trees are regrowing as fast as they are being cut.

But there is very little production from Govt owned land here. All that wood is coming from privately owned land, and pretty good money being paid for it. So it's not even a case of other governments "giving away" wood to undercut the US market.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Chop Shop on May 31, 2016, 12:56:25 AM
As long as AMERICANS want to buy walmart lumber then we will get the garbage while our QUALITY stuff gets bought by countries that want good export timber.

Americans as a whole are BAD consumers.



There are way more KIA dealerships here than GM/Mopar/Ford combined.   Thanks your neighbor.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: PC-Urban-Sawyer on May 31, 2016, 02:41:27 AM
Quote from: Chop Shop on May 31, 2016, 12:56:25 AM
...
There are way more KIA dealerships here than GM/Mopar/Ford combined.   Thanks your neighbor.

Chop Shop,

According to Google, there are "more than 755" KIA, 3,263 Ford, 4,355 GM and "2,300+" Dodge dealers in the United States. So, even though it seems like the KIAs are winning, they still have a long way to go...

Herb

Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: madmari on May 31, 2016, 05:10:44 AM
Don't buy it. Get your lumber from a local mill. I get my hemlock and pine boards from a local mill ( there are lots of mills) and it's priced competitively with Lowe's, is better quality and I can get what I want without picking through two units for a straight board. Plus, they buy my logs!
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: coxy on May 31, 2016, 05:48:50 AM
Quote from: madmari on May 31, 2016, 05:10:44 AM
Don't buy it. Get your lumber from a local mill. I get my hemlock and pine boards from a local mill ( there are lots of mills) and it's priced competitively with Lowe's, is better quality and I can get what I want without picking through two units for a straight board. Plus, they buy my logs!
your lucky most of the soft wood mills in my area wont sell to home owner and if you can find someone with a band mill to saw you lumber they want 60-65cents a ft to saw it
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Peter Drouin on May 31, 2016, 05:55:07 AM
Most times the logs go on a ship out to int waters and makes the lumber, doors, windows  . The boat is the sawmill. The waste from the log runs the boat. [Steam]
Back to port and unload, Get more logs. Where ever the boat is from is where the stamp comes from. Austria lumber Austria boat.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Peter Drouin on May 31, 2016, 05:56:49 AM
.60 to .65 to cut it? or sell it?
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: 4x4American on May 31, 2016, 06:11:45 AM
Sawmill boat?  Interesting..never woulda thunk it..
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: HiTech on May 31, 2016, 07:03:41 AM
It's hard to find good lumber. It's also hard to find good potatoes. Not to change the subject, but it is. lol
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Spartan on May 31, 2016, 07:05:08 AM
Quote from: Chop Shop on May 31, 2016, 12:56:25 AM

Americans as a whole are BAD consumers.




last quote I heard, and maybe it's a little off, 1 in 4 people in the US are on some sort of assistance from the government.
With numbers like that, no wonder people shop at Walmart.

I don't think our economy is as rosy as they say.

I'm one of them sad to say, not because I don't work my but off either, but sometimes I can't afford to buy local or american even if I want to.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: WDH on May 31, 2016, 07:23:44 AM
One thing that you can be sure of.  It is all driven by economics.  Lowes buys the lowest cost source of wood, whether it is produced in the US or abroad.  It has nothing to do with environmental issues.  Much of the timber produced in the US is grown sustainably, that is, the growth is equal or greater than the harvest.  It also has to do with exchange rates.  If the dollar is strong in relation to other currencies, then when lumber is imported, the strong dollar purchases more wood per the unit of currency of the importing country, making the wood cheaper to buy in the US. 
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: sandsawmill14 on May 31, 2016, 07:28:23 AM
spartan i know what you mean i been sawing syp pine into 4x6 for a while now and we cant sell the side lumber period :( i have burned about 5-6 mbdft in the last 3 weeks or so the last we sawed we had about 20  mbdft that took over a year to peddle out to farmers at $200 a 1000  :( so this time i am only keeping maybe 6-8000 bdft and that only because it is so nice i  cant bring myself to burn it :(  then i go to lowes and see there prices a i cant figure out why i cant sell it i could kiln dry and 4 side plane it and still sell it for 1/2 price of their price so why cant we sell it ???
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Ed_K on May 31, 2016, 04:02:29 PM
 What ever happened to Lowes having to buy their lumber from certified U.S. source's? I've spent a lot of time $ and paper work to get certified thru Smart Wood and FSC. Just so i'd be ahead of the game for selling logs Green Certified  >:(   ::) .
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: coxy on May 31, 2016, 04:45:05 PM
Quote from: Spartan on May 31, 2016, 07:05:08 AM
Quote from: Chop Shop on May 31, 2016, 12:56:25 AM

Americans as a whole are BAD consumers.




last quote I heard, and maybe it's a little off, 1 in 4 people in the US are on some sort of assistance from the government.
With numbers like that, no wonder people shop at Walmart.

I don't think our economy is as rosy as they say.

I'm one of them sad to say, not because I don't work my but off either, but sometimes I can't afford to buy local or american even if I want to.
x2       if I supply the logs    I'm afraid to ask what she get for her own logs to lumber
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: lopet on May 31, 2016, 10:51:12 PM
It's going to get worse before it's getting better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nb-Frf0t5A4
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Glenn on June 01, 2016, 05:36:29 AM
I know of one canadian mill that sells aspen logs to china.  They get cut on the boat.  Not sure how the waste is handled and I'm wondering how they get around the kiln dried rule for exporting.  I know the logs did not get heat treated.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: redprospector on June 01, 2016, 01:53:00 PM
Quote from: Ed_K on May 31, 2016, 04:02:29 PM
What ever happened to Lowes having to buy their lumber from certified U.S. source's? I've spent a lot of time $ and paper work to get certified thru Smart Wood and FSC. Just so i'd be ahead of the game for selling logs Green Certified  >:(   ::) .

They were just kidding about that.
I run into that a lot with the State Forestry out here.  :D
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Ljohnsaw on June 01, 2016, 05:26:17 PM
Quote from: sandsawmill14 on May 31, 2016, 07:28:23 AM
I could kiln dry and 4 side plane it and still sell it for 1/2 price of their price so why cant we sell it ???

Advertising...  Could you load up your trailer with your quality wood, put a sign on it advertising your business (phone number and/or address) and park it near the street at the entrance of a Lowes or HD parking lot?  Then go wander around the store for any other things you need for a couple of hours.  Have some magnetic signs made to stick on your truck, too, so when your are out and about, people see it.  Make one for the tailgate as well.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: longtime lurker on June 01, 2016, 06:25:46 PM
Quote from: ljohnsaw on June 01, 2016, 05:26:17 PM
Quote from: sandsawmill14 on May 31, 2016, 07:28:23 AM
I could kiln dry and 4 side plane it and still sell it for 1/2 price of their price so why cant we sell it ???

Advertising...  Could you load up your trailer with your quality wood, put a sign on it advertising your business (phone number and/or address) and park it near the street at the entrance of a Lowes or HD parking lot?  Then go wander around the store for any other things you need for a couple of hours.  Have some magnetic signs made to stick on your truck, too, so when your are out and about, people see it.  Make one for the tailgate as well.

A lot of the time its not so much advertising as convenience. People go to Lowes or HD (or Bunnings if you're in Australia) because its a one stop shop. They can buy fastenings and all the other bits and pieces while they're there. They know its more expensive, but the time saved compensates for that.
I avoid retail anyway, most of my sales are at the trade level but even then we got to fight because the "serious" building supply places here carry roofing and sheetrock and often as not have a truss plant - all I carry is wood. Good wood, better then most and Im competitive but theres still that issue.
Add to that you need to figure out the cost of walk in customers... hard to get much done when everytime you start sawing another guy walks in with an enquiry and you got to stop and price it and maybe get the job or not.... going that way you need to employ someone just to handle the sales side. We get around that with trade customers by email... they call or email for quotes and orders and that way all we have to do is put the order together and often as not we got to deliver on site. Deliver on site usually means a crane truck, and you either got to have a good arrangement with someone whos got one or own your own.... another set of costs.

Guess what Im saying is its about more then just the wood and the price of the wood - its also about convenience and service.
Title: Re: I don't quite understand....
Post by: Corley5 on June 01, 2016, 07:49:22 PM
I've bought framing lumber from HD in the past even though I log and have a saw mill.  By the time I figured my costs and time to harvest the logs, get them to the mill, mill them into lumber and haul the lumber to the job I was way ahead to just go and buy the lumber and keep doing what I was doing.  It's not right  :(