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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: YellowHammer on December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM

Title: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 27, 2016, 01:02:45 AM
I used to look at quarter sawing as a necessary pain in the rear.  Its painfully slow as it takes one log, and turns them into four, (quarters), which then must be sawn.  So it is at least four times slower for me, or at least sure seems to be.
It has also been pretty unpredictable, with a mix of good figure, and some boards just rift sawn with no figure, and therefore much less value.
I went to the Sycamore Project and watched Jake and Danny and others do some quarter sawing.  One thing I noticed was that with the use of a chain turner, the process was much easier, being able to handle the log better and allowing the log or cant to be reversed rolled and positioned easily.  Unfortunately, my mill doesn't have a chain turner, and I've been trying a bunch of different techniques this year, I've kind of settled on one that is a true qaurtersawn technique, gets full figure in every board, and only requires the log to be split, not quartered.  There is some waste, but not too much, and the sawing is much faster and a lot more productive because I'm sawing half logs, not quarters and constantly reverse or back rolling the log half so without having to do conventional flips or rotations.  Being true quarter sawing, the ray fleck is amazing, much more vivid than I've seen using other techniques.

Anyway, last week, I decided to take some photos of the process.  It's kind of chaotic, and requires holding the cant at all kinds of unusual angles, but the results are terrific.
First off, I have to be able to see the grain clearly, so I can't end seal with Anchorseal.  It obscure the grain too much, so I can't see to rotate the cant correctly.  I also will occasionally take a Sharpie and quickly mark lines perpendicular to the end grain of the log.  Since all logs aren't perfectly round, the grain on some logs isn't circular, but more oval so quickly marking the grain, or marking perpendicular lines helps me drive the rotations better.

So first step is spend a little effort with a tape measure and center the pith on a couple sides, then start skinning the log like a carrot, taking as many thin slices off the bark as necessary to get it cleaned up.  It doesn't need to be a hexagon or octagon or anything in particular, it just doesn't matter.

Then do the conventional thing and take a few good cuts through the center of the log, a couple boards above and below the pith, perpendicular to it, so the boards have the crack in the middle of the boards, and these through sawn boards should show good quartersawn figure.  Here are some 25 inchers, that will be split into a couple 10 inch wides later, after they dry.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3111.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482820407)

I dislike handling the large log halves, so many times I can get lucky and use the two plane clamp under the left side of the log to flip the top half of the log onto the loader arms.  The picture below shows the log after reverse rolling the log halves, which successfully caused the top half to slide into the loader arms, and getting ready for the first pie cuts.  You can just see the back of the two plane clamp against the log half on the loader arms, where I used it to push the log half outboard, off the mill. 

So now with only the one log half on the mill, use the backstops and two plane to position it so the perpendicular Sharpie grain line are slightly above horizontal, to start sawing a little above perpendicular to the grain, so I can get few boards where the lines will then be below perpendicular, or below horizontal of the Sharpie marks.  The log half is not really clamped, it is really just stabilized.  It takes a little while to trust that the log half won't move when sawing, but its rare for it to happen.  The backstops may only be a few inches up, or maybe halfway, and the inboard side of the log half will overhang them, and just need to clear the inboard blade guide rollers.  Its rare to get the backstops fully extended at this point.  I'll work the log half so that I can get a minimum 4 inch board on the first cut by cutting off the top triangle or pie wedge.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3112.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671793)

When the pie or wedge piece comes off it should look like this.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3110.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671851)

Then mill a couple more boards until the grain is not perpendicular and the ray fleck starts to diminish.  Here is what it looks like at that point, in the picture below.  Notice how the grain doesn't have to be exactly perpendicular, but there is a tolerance band that will produce the highly visible ray fleck. This picture also gives a good look at the backstops, only partially extended, tucked under the log edge, holding it up.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3114.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671857)
At this point, slide the two plane clamp inboard a little, and the log half will rotate up, until the grain lines are again a little above horizontal like below. 

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3115.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671898)

Take another pie cut to flatten the tops and the QS grain should jump out again in the next couple, maybe three boards.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3117.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671916)
Then rotate again past horizontal, and take another pie cut and get a few more boards.  The pie cut is actually fairly shallow, just enough to where it's base is about four inches to get me a four inch board on the next cut.  I don't take the whole top off, just enough to get me fleck.  As the boards come off, they get wider and wider, until they get full width of the log half.  All the pie cuts and boards should show strong ray fleck, or rotate the cant a little and take another little slice, basically prospecting for the fleck, if needed.  Most times it shows up on the pie piece.  Eventually, the whole log half is rotated around, taking pie slices and QS boards all the way until the cant is gone.   
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3119.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671932)
Also notice that the cant is not square on the bed of the mill, I'm just clamping it where it needs to be by pushing the two plane inboard and reverse rotating the cant.  Its not being held hard, its just using its own weight to resist the force of the saw blade cutting.  Sometimes, the sawing pattern will cause the grain to get a little out of whack, and hard to visualize as the cant gets smaller or is irregular, here is a picture of an off center hard to visualize cut, but once the top pie it cut off, the boards will be perfectly perpendicular, as seen with the Sharpie ink pen marks.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3118.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482671936)
Eventually, the log half gets sawn down to just a couple boards, and the Sharpie marks still act as a guide, but the grain visible on the end shows the boards will be good ones.
Sure enough, when they get split, they look like this.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3121.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482816739)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3122.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482816764)

Anyway, long post but this technique works great, and has made my quarter sawing a lot faster and much more productive with a minimum of hand touching during the process.









 

 
   
 
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: ljohnsaw on December 27, 2016, 03:13:56 AM
Very cool!  I like it.  Now if I only had some oak to ¼ saw!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: fishfighter on December 27, 2016, 04:34:19 AM
Thanks for posting. How much waste you getting?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on December 27, 2016, 05:42:11 AM
Nice clear explanation, YH. I have some oak I just may try that.

Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 27, 2016, 07:56:16 AM
Then do the conventional thing and take a few good cuts through the center of the log, a couple boards above and below the pith, perpendicular to it, so the boards have the crack in the middle of the boards, and these through sawn boards should show good quartersawn figure. 

This is a very important step as you need to cut out the juvenile wood with these first few boards above and below the pith.  Otherwise, the quartersawn boards will side bend.

Robert,

This is excellent!  It has been a challenge quartersawing reverse rolling the log without the chain turner, so I can't wait to try this technique.  You have had your thinking cap on, as usual  ;D.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boardmaker on December 27, 2016, 08:40:29 AM
Great write up!

True QS is absolutely gorgeous.

I know this question is very log dependent, but what type of yield do you think you get with great figure?  I know a lot of guys won't take the time to qs due to the yield loss and extra labor. 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on December 27, 2016, 08:46:34 AM
Total yield loss qs versus flatsawing is around 35%
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Andries on December 27, 2016, 11:47:33 AM
Robert, great post.
The photos make the technique easy to understand.
Thanks for taking the time and care.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: caveman on December 27, 2016, 12:03:19 PM
The quarter sawn boards are stunning.  I am anxious to try that technique on some live oak.

Also, I need a better thinking cap, mine seems to be defective ;D.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Ox on December 27, 2016, 12:55:42 PM
Awesome write up and awesome pics, thanks so much for sharing!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: drobertson on December 27, 2016, 01:42:30 PM
Very helpful,  eye popping rays and flecks,
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on December 27, 2016, 05:16:53 PM
Thanks for the post.  Good info.  Pretty lumber.  All QS boards must be edged so an edger is handy if you do it regularly. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on December 27, 2016, 06:49:55 PM
Good Post Robert. Your pictures are right on and very helpful.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: woodworker9 on December 27, 2016, 07:16:10 PM
Thank you for posting.  I always am learning here.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WLC on December 27, 2016, 08:46:28 PM
Only one word:  WOW!!

Thanks for the technique as well.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on December 27, 2016, 09:50:38 PM
Some beautiful lumber there, good stinkin!  Thanks for sharing and taking the time to share with us.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Planman1954 on December 27, 2016, 10:00:28 PM
You made me wanna go try it. ;) :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on December 28, 2016, 02:37:18 AM
Great write up. I'm glad the project helped with the thinking cap.  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 28, 2016, 07:49:22 AM
Spoken by one with a chain turner  :D. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 28, 2016, 09:01:44 AM
Thanks for the replies.  When quarter sawing, there is always more waste than flat sawing, but the little pies or wedges get smaller as I gain experience with the technique.  Since I'm targeting 4 inch wide boards and larger, all the wedges should be less than 4 inch wide triangles, many quite thin. 

Trying to minimize waste is very important, as these logs I'm sawing are high dollar stave quality logs, and I need to make very high quality QS wood with lots of figure.  I can explain to my customers until I'm blue in the face about rift sawn and quartersawn wood, and even QS wood that doesn't show figure, and they nod their head, listening, and then always grab the most highly figured pieces. :D  At the end of the day, the highly figured boards are sold, and the only thing left is the plain boards.  So these eventually go on the lower priced stacks and we lose $2 per bdft between what I paid for the logs and what our sales price is.

The place I buy a lot of logs from down the road knows I'm doing a good bit of quarter sawing these days and gave me a Christmas present.  They had a huge red oak log, well over 60 inches in diameter, and it took two Deere 544 loaders to get it off the log truck.  So they figured I'd want it and told one of their guys to go ahead and quarter it with a chainsaw so I could actually handle it.  When I showed up, I saw the quarters, the smallest about 30 inches across, just plain huge.  They loaded all four quarters on my trailer, and it was a full load.  For reference, the trailer uprights are 32 inches tall, and the quarters are taller. Thes will be fun.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3124.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482933351)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3125.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482933340)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Lud on December 28, 2016, 10:24:56 AM
I've had some success quarter sawing but will try your technique next time. 
Well Done! 8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 28, 2016, 04:10:36 PM
Robert,

You have a lucky horseshoe hidden somewhere on your Farm  :-*. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on December 28, 2016, 04:17:26 PM
Very nice.  I'll have to stop by Woodmizer and look at clamping systems.  I have an LT15go and just have conventional clamps.  Boy If I could automate more it would be nice.  I wish they offered more options on the LT15 so you could upgrade as you can afford it.  I have to have the LT15 because I have the MP100 beam planer which requires a 2 rail mill.  Since that is the case, I think they should offer a lot more upgrade options.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on December 28, 2016, 04:47:12 PM
Robert,

You have a lucky horseshoe hidden somewhere on your Farm  :-*.

What about yours?  :D :D :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Kbeitz on December 28, 2016, 06:01:17 PM
Very nice.  I'll have to stop by Woodmizer and look at clamping systems.  I have an LT15go and just have conventional clamps.  Boy If I could automate more it would be nice.  I wish they offered more options on the LT15 so you could upgrade as you can afford it.  I have to have the LT15 because I have the MP100 beam planer which requires a 2 rail mill.  Since that is the case, I think they should offer a lot more upgrade options.

They do have a big options upgrade for your mill. The part number is LT28.
Very easy to do. You have someone unscrew the fuel cap and hold ir about 6"
above the tank while someone pulls the mill out from under it. Then you back
the new part (LT28) under the cap and help screw it back on. You will be surprised
how much difference it makes. I think there is other options to.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on December 28, 2016, 07:18:37 PM
  The log half is not really clamped, it is really just stabilized.  It takes a little while to trust that the log half won't move when sawing, but its rare for it to happen.   

Very nice.  I'll have to stop by Woodmizer and look at clamping systems.  I have an LT15go and just have conventional clamps. 

Notice what Robert said about clamping in the OP.  Those log halves are heavy.  You are not actually clamping it, you are stabilizing it.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on December 29, 2016, 06:27:16 AM
 
  At the end of the day, the highly figured boards are sold, and the only thing left is the plain boards.  So these eventually go on the lower priced stacks and we lose $2 per bdft between what I paid for the logs and what our sales price is.


(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3124.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482933351)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3125.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1482933340)




What::) I think you're paying too much for some logs. :new_year:
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on December 29, 2016, 08:56:28 AM
Thanks for this writeup. I'll try it next time.  First Bibby the log, then (Yellow)Hammer it! :D :D :D

I usually have 3 pieces on the loading arms trying to keep them there or one on the ground too.   And forgetting which face to cut off of one or more of them by the time it comes back onto the mill.

This method seems to:
-neatly organizes the quarter sawing both mentally and in material handling.   Organization helps efficiency and is always good for business.
-do the best for each piece of QS lumber that is in the log
-replace time spent getting a big half vertical, and handling other pieces, with time where the blade is in the wood.


 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 29, 2016, 09:27:04 AM
What::) I think you're paying too much for some logs.

I always think I pay too much for logs!  I just can't convince the loggers that.  However, at just our retail selling price difference of FAS white oak vs QS white oak, it's a difference of $1.50 per Bdft lost if a board doesn't have fleck. 

TerrificTimber
I agree, juggling log quarters is very frustrating and time consuming, and this eliminates that.  The bigger the log, the bigger the pain juggling quarters.  Generally, the only time the log half has to be hand touched would be the second log half, depending on how it lands when it comes off the bottom half, it may have to be flipped over to get the round side down on the bed rails.  Sometime the two plane will do it, sometimes not.  So if it lands wrong side down, then, with the log half on the loader arms, back the two plane into the left side of the log, as outboard as possible, maybe a couple inches up, and raise the loader arms.  The log half will hang on the back of the two plane, and if it doesn't trip and fall over when I raise the loader arms, then I use a Logrite to grab the top of the half and nudge it past it's balance point and trip it over on the bed.  Make sure the backstops are all the way up or she will go over the other side of the mill.   
I have a grapple on my tractor I can use to physically remove the top log half if I want, but its just one more thing to do, and tripping it with the two plane while it's on the mill works fine. 

Of course the chain turner guys just have to flick a couple levers....
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: flatrock58 on December 29, 2016, 11:13:50 AM
Perfect timing YH.  I have a large red oak I need to cut and try this method. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 29, 2016, 08:13:11 PM
Of course the chain turner guys just have to flick a couple levers....

Sometimes, those guys can get an attitude  :) ;D. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on December 29, 2016, 11:01:37 PM
Of course the chain turner guys just have to flick a couple levers....

Sometimes, those guys can get an attitude  :) ;D .


These frozen logs that are covered in ice (and mud) can be a bear to turn with the claw/clamp sometimes...sometimes I wonder how hard it would be to put a chain turner on there, and other times I want to drag the 40 super to WM and trade it in on a 70 super  ;D


But then I figure I'll let them get all the bugs worked out of them before I go and do something like that
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Kbeitz on December 30, 2016, 09:19:14 AM
Around 20 years ago I picked up a new hydraulic chain turner for a saw mill
at our local junkyard. At the time I did not even know what it was. I only
got it for the hoses and the hydraulic motor that was on it. So it has been
sitting out in the weather all this time. Maybe its time to do something with it.
This was in new condition when I found it. I'm not sure that I have room to
mount this unit under my small mill.

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/DSC05123.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483107346)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/DSC05124.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483107405)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/39553/DSC05125.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483107459)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on December 30, 2016, 08:35:12 PM
I can't believe someone through that way!! Kbeitz
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on December 30, 2016, 10:32:41 PM
It could have been from a stolen sawmill and they carried it to the scrapyard a piece at the time.   :-\
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 31, 2016, 12:08:42 AM
Kbietz, what an excellent find.  Looks pretty beefy.

I was working on some oversized red oak quarters today, and took a few more photos.  This is more of typical conventional quartersawing, and I wasn't really reverse rolling, just doing what I could to get them up in the mill and sawn.  This log was quartered for me with a chainsaw as a present by someone else and weren't halves.  However, I wasn't complaining, they were as big as my mill would take.
 
These big guys were difficult to maneuver, and my two plane would barely lift them.  However, with a little bit of wrestling, I got the first quarter in position, and didn't push it over the back side.   

Here is a picture of it rotated so that the growth rings are perpendicular the the band.  The log clamping look precarious, but it's steady. The first wedge has been cut.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3151.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483152587)

I was not real happy with the figure, so did some grain prospecting.  Basically, I'll make slight adjustments, and in this case raised the rear toe board some, and rotated a few more degrees.  Then I took a shallow skim pass and found the fleck.   
In the picture below, the right board is the wedge cut with minimal fleck that I wasn't happy with, the left board is the thin prospecting cut with fleck.  The fleck still wasn't that great, but better than what was in the wedge cut.  I didn't have to change the angle much to see better results.  This is one advantage of taking the first cut off the narrow top, it's easy to search for and find the fleck without wasting a wide board.

 
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3152.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483152591)

Once the fleck is found, then start at the top and work down as far as the mill will go on on the perpendicular rings.  Then do some more rotations and keep whittling.
 
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3154.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483152603)

The cant was so big the left side of the log was brushing the inboard rollers, almost hitting the upright, and the right side was almost touching the outboard side.  Max mill capacity on QS boards, big boards, 26 inch or so across coming off. 

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3157.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1483152615)



Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Kbeitz on December 31, 2016, 12:13:34 AM
I can't believe someone through that way!! Kbeitz
About one a month I find something as good as that to bring home
from that same yard.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on December 31, 2016, 06:06:26 AM
Well, It must be you and maybe 2 other guys are picking.
Here you have to be lucky I have 50 guys picking. I do find a lot too.

YH, good job, That's big wood :o I have been doing that too, Near the end of it I sometimes flip the thing so my dog board is 5/4 ¼ sawn too.
 :new_year:
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on January 01, 2017, 07:57:31 AM
Should I move?  I can't pick at my dump.  :-[
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Kbeitz on January 01, 2017, 10:00:12 AM
I would show some of the stuff I found but this is getting off topic.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on January 02, 2017, 08:32:47 AM
I would show some of the stuff I found but this is getting off topic.


Make a new thread then over on the general board?  Junkyard finds...
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Andries on January 25, 2017, 05:48:37 PM
Nice Christmas present, and what a load.
That load is centered nicely.
Good thing, otherwise your trailer might be doing a reverse roll too!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 05, 2017, 10:24:54 PM
I was a doing some more quartersawing and decided I'd take a picture of every cut.  I wanted to see how many misses I would have, and maybe help explain the way I've been doing it lately.  There are lots of ways to quarter saw, but this technique works best for me, and allows me to start with a full half log and not quarter it.  This means a lot less hands on log handling, and less pieces of log pushed on the loader arms to deal with later.  Then by simply rolling the half log up into the band, allows me to just keep on sawing, one board after another.
I put a bunch of marks, way more than I usually do, on the end of the log to make it easier to see the rays and grain in the photos, and also allows me to keep track of the rays in my sawing pattern.  If you look at the pictures, you'll notice that many times I'm coming way off ray, but still take a cut based on the previous cut, knowing I'd get at least one good side.
This goes pretty fast, and I never have to touch the cant, I can do all the rotations with the hydraulics.  Basically just take a half a log and whittle it until it's gone. 

Bottom line, I only missed the QS fleck on one board, and it was a narrow starter wedge, which is the idea because I don't miss on a wide board.  I was able to immediately go back and make a wedge cut, and scored again.  Anyway, lots of pics to follow, generally an end view of the cut, and the resulting board.  I really like this technique, because I know the next board will have fleck, or I can make a simple adjustment to get it.  No guessing, just results.

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3241.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345319)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3242.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345327)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3243.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345346)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3244.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345359)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3245.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345363)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3246.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345383)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3247.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345398)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3249.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345424)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3250.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345432)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3251.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345477)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3252.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345468)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3253.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486346560)



 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3254.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486346511)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3255.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345565)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3258.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345542)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3259.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345569)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3260.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345585)

 

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 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3267.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345720)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3268.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345702)

 

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 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3273.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345795)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3274.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345799) 

A miss, so I make a wedge cut and hit it again

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3275.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345833) 

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3276.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345836) 

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3277.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345860) 

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3278.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345881)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3279.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345908)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3280.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345930)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3281.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345943)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3282.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345967)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3284.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345997)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3288.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486346005)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3290.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486346063)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3291.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486346023)

Using the two plane to hold the cant off the bed to get a good angle on the cut

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3292.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486346047)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3293.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486346060)

 

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 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3296.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486346124)



 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3297.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486346179)

 

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 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3299.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486346177)
 
 

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Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on February 05, 2017, 10:39:12 PM
Beautiful lumber  8)


Thanks for sharing!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: sawwood on February 05, 2017, 11:02:44 PM
I have watch a few you tube videos and have seen some photos on here showing how to quarter saw. I would some one to
make a video showing first on the log where the grain is and where to make the cuts. Then from start all the way to the end
even if it take a two part video to show the hole proses. I all ways seem they cut it two short and I don't get how some of the
cuts are made. We have a manual mill and it take some time to try and cut a log quarter saw.

 Sawwood
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on February 05, 2017, 11:40:04 PM
Sure looks like you get better results this way than I've gotten sawing off the bottom.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on February 06, 2017, 06:50:12 AM
Very good job YH, I do the same with marking the ends to show the rings. Sometimes the log has enough trim to cut off a ½" so I can see them better.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boardmaker on February 06, 2017, 10:06:25 AM
Wonderful tutorial.

Great job and THANKS!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on February 06, 2017, 11:09:07 AM
Rings mean nothing.  I always mark the rays (red marks) for the best flake.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/DSCF8878.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1461896183)

After a while it becomes clear as too which log will be the easiest to quarter saw.  It is also helpful to look at both ends of the log. 

The thickness of the rays are also an excellent predictor of flake quality.  The thicker the ray the better. 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Engineer on February 07, 2017, 03:00:30 PM
Very nice looking lumber.

Earlier in the thread you said that you don't seal the logs because you can't see the grain or rays.  Maybe worth it to cut off no more than an inch off the end of the log just before you mark it.  That way you can still use sealer, it's protected until you're ready to cut it, and then you just shave off a very thin cookie and can clearly see your rays and mark them.  I always liked to start a log on a clean end, especially if I needed to know where the pith or grain direction was. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on February 08, 2017, 12:33:48 AM
I love this concept.  I have a manual mill (LT15GO), but I'm looking into adding manual toe boards and manual turner.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on February 08, 2017, 03:16:46 AM
You done good. It is better to waste a wedge cut to make sure you get the rays. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 08, 2017, 10:41:05 PM
Jake, thanks.


Earlier in the thread you said that you don't seal the logs because you can't see the grain or rays.  Maybe worth it to cut off no more than an inch off the end of the log just before you mark it.  That way you can still use sealer, it's protected until you're ready to cut it, and then you just shave off a very thin cookie and can clearly see your rays and mark them.  I always liked to start a log on a clean end, especially if I needed to know where the pith or grain direction was.

This is one of tricks that I been using that has really helped, which is start from the old, cracking end of the log. I buck the log longer than I need anyway, in this case about 8'6" or so, and if I let the log sit a few days or so, the rays will start cracking and making them very easy to see and really lets me see my sawing lines, in addition to the marker lines.  The rays cracking are a dead giveaway of where I need to put the band.  If you look at the bottom part of the cant (zoom in) you'll see slight but distinct end checking in the rays, which is why I didn't always need to use a Sharpie to mark them, Mother Nature does it for me.  It's a case of the less I do, the easier it becomes.   

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_3273.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1486345795)

After sawing, the boards come right off the drag back and are deadstacked on an 8 foot pallet. Then I use the chainsaw to trim the entire pack to length, cutting off the checked ends, and immediately Anchorseal.  I've been doing a good deal of this packsawing and trimming technique, and I would rather buck or pack saw two ends of a pallet of wood to bring them to length. than a bunch of logs.  I'm getting lazy in my old age, trying to find easier ways.....
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: SlowJoeCrow on February 09, 2017, 11:40:13 AM
Great tip!  This way you are only chainsawing finished boards, not the bark (and potential dirt), maximizing the chain life of the saw as well.  Smart!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: John S on February 09, 2017, 05:15:43 PM
I have read this post twice so far and think I get it.  Great job, and I will try it when the snow melts here.  I think this is very similar to the method that Marty Parsons demonstrated at the PA Owners day last October.  What blade are you using on your mill?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 5quarter on February 10, 2017, 01:24:28 AM
Yellowhammer...that is some sweet looking lumber! That is pretty much the same way I QS. I tried to explain it once quite awhile ago, but your explanation is practically a handbook!  ;) :D On smaller logs up to about 32", i'll split in two, taking only 2 boards out of the center. On the bigger logs, I will split in thirds with the chainsaw. When sawing, the size of the wedge I take is determined by measuring about 2½" above the plane where the blade would intersect the upper right corner of the cant. That way I can get 2 boards; one narrow and one full width. Ideally I continue the wedge-board-board pattern until the cant is sawn up., but I have yet to encounter the ideal log  ;). Do you trim off your angled edges straight off the saw or after they're dried? I do mine right off the saw, but I HATE edging on the saw if I can help it.  :(
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on February 10, 2017, 07:22:30 AM
Robert,

You keep doing this and you will have to have an edger  :-\ :-* ;D :D.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 10, 2017, 07:58:11 AM
An edger is sure something I think about a good deal, and pretty much every board that comes off will have an odd, angled edge.  If I could find a decent one for a good price, I'd get it, but in all honesty, I haven't been able to justify or even find one it, at least a good one.  Seems very few people in this area use WM, Cooks, or Timber King style edgers, and it's very difficult to find a late model used one, and the 40 year old PTO versions of others types that have been left in the hayfield for decades are rusted junk and are way overpriced. 

I have been keeping my eyes open, and have been watching, but no luck yet.  Some of the bigger mills around here use big old 1945 straight line rip saws for accurate dimensional edging on green lumber, others use the new technology that edges boards so fast it's amazing.  I have been considering getting a vintage SLR for that purpose. 

I have two other options that make it a difficult decistion.  First is that there is a place down the road who will straight line rip every dried board for 15 cents per bdft, and also I can straight line mine as well, once they are dried, and I get a joint quality edge.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Sirh2Tf-0Y0
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: paul case on February 10, 2017, 09:28:44 AM
As nice of q sawn lumber as you have, I would be uneasy about letting it leave for fear that you wouldnt get it back.
Our edger almost always takes 2 people and if you edge on the mill with 2 people it isnt so painfull. The WM single edger is the exception. I could edge on it alone and it was just a hair faster than on the mill.
PC
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on February 11, 2017, 11:33:14 PM
Robert:


http://meadowsmills.com/mineredger.html


Meadows Mills supposed to be a good company
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: D6c on February 12, 2017, 06:40:39 PM
You're getting some beautiful looking oak with that method.
One question....wouldn't that be more what you'd call rift sawing?
Like this: http://www.hardwooddistributors.org/blog/postings/what-is-rift-sawn-lumber/
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Ga Mtn Man on February 12, 2017, 07:02:23 PM
That looks like text-book quarter-sawn lumber to me...rings at 90° to the cut face.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on February 12, 2017, 08:36:46 PM
D6c, that picture has been shown before.  The top picture is rift sawn, and the bottom illustration is quarter sawing not rift.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on February 13, 2017, 12:44:28 AM
Not everything you read on the internet is correct.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: D6c on February 13, 2017, 12:50:25 PM
D6c, that picture has been shown before.  The top picture is rift sawn, and the bottom illustration is quarter sawing not rift.

You're right....seems like I've seen another place that had it backwards like that too.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: footer on February 13, 2017, 03:38:01 PM
I couldn't tell you how many places on the internet I have seen that picture, or similar, with someone arguing that the bottom picture is rift sawn. Here is a long thread form years back on this exact same thing.
http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=79020.0 (http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=79020.0)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Nomad on February 13, 2017, 07:04:02 PM
You're getting some beautiful looking oak with that method.
One question....wouldn't that be more what you'd call rift sawing?
Like this: http://www.hardwooddistributors.org/blog/postings/what-is-rift-sawn-lumber/

     What kills me is they're suggesting this to avoid the medullary rays.  Different strokes for different folks, I guess.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 13, 2017, 10:59:08 PM
For hardwood lumber, quartersawn has three definitions.  Perhaps the most useful comes from the National Hardwood Lumber Association.  It applies to species with the ray fleck pattern on a radial surface.  If the fleck is visible on 80% of the surface (used for grading), then the piece is quartersawn.  This definition certainly helps satisfy the customer's desires when they quest quartersawn. In order to get the fleck pattern the annual growth rings, when viewed from the end grain, need to be between 75 to 90 degrees to the face...not part of the definition but rather what will exist.

With my customers, this is the definition that applies when they are paying for the more expensive QS wood.  If it doesn't have ray fleck, it's not what they want. 

Thats one of the interesting things about marking the rays, its very educational to see just how far off angle the QS ray fleck will show.  On some logs, there is a lot of forgiveness and almost no correction wedge cuts need to be made.  On other logs, they are very tight and unforgiving, and it's very easy to lose the ray fleck. 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on February 14, 2017, 07:39:54 AM
No matter the angle, I do not consider oak quartersawn unless there is ray fleck. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on February 14, 2017, 01:50:10 PM
Happy Birthday YH :)

Thats one of the interesting things about marking the rays, its very educational to see just how far off angle the QS ray fleck will show.  On some logs, there is a lot of forgiveness and almost no correction wedge cuts need to be made.  On other logs, they are very tight and unforgiving, and it's very easy to lose the ray fleck.

A little picture of burr oak where rays are nice and fat.  Makes sawing for fleck a lot easier.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/P7210005.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1192058240)

YH has come up with a method to maximize figure by putting more effort and time into sawing.  I think its a great idea to insure each board shows its full figure.  I bet those boards make a nice return on effort. :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on February 14, 2017, 08:05:50 PM
Larry,

That is a great pic. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on February 14, 2017, 08:36:44 PM
If only I would've had all this info before I sawed up all my black oak. I have some good figure but I could have done better.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 14, 2017, 11:53:00 PM
Larry,

That is a great pic. 
Yes. Very good. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: flatrock58 on February 15, 2017, 09:38:30 AM
Yellowhammer
I cut a couple of large oak logs this week and used a couple different methods.  Haven't tried your method yet.  I ended up with about 50% quartersawn and the rest were rift sawn.  I was wondering what percent most people get that is QS and how your Reverse roll method does?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 15, 2017, 10:49:07 PM
Yellowhammer
I was wondering what percent most people get that is QS and how your Reverse roll method does?
That's the point of this technique, the goal is to get every single board to show ray fleck.  Also, the exploratory wedge cuts on the narrow sides of the log half are to confirm that the angle and geometry of the cut is good and will show fleck, before wide boards are sawn.  On most conventional techniques, the first cuts are made through the wide part of the log half to make quarters, and these boards are sawn widest down to narrowest.  So misses can occur on the widest boards.  Using the technique I'm using, as I'm sawing narrowest to widest, I know for sure, board after board, will have ray fleck.  No guessing.
So in reply 43, I showed every cut on the half log, which was about 30 inches in diameter.  Every board came off with fleck, except a narrow starter wedge. 
It may not be the fastest technique, but I don't think it's slower than any other, and my stress level goes way down, as I know I'm in good wood the whole log. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: flatrock58 on February 17, 2017, 07:29:24 PM
Yellowhammer,
I guess I assumed you didn't get QS on every board.  How much waist is there with all the times you cut wedges?  I will have to try it.  You are getting some really nice QS boards!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 17, 2017, 10:55:11 PM
The waste varies from log to log.  It just depends in how forgiving the log is.  The main thing is to never lose it, just as it starts thinning, rotate the log, and get back in it. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on February 20, 2017, 11:14:03 AM
Very insightful technique - thanks for sharing.

One other benefit of this method is that every board is at maximum width.  With other methods of QSing you will end up with a mix of board widths.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 22, 2017, 12:24:05 AM
Yes, you are correct, this gives a much higher percentage of wide boards. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on February 28, 2017, 08:18:39 PM
I tried it with my manual MP32 on a knotty 16" short white oak. Not much to be lost if I screw up. I halved the log and cut two 16" QS boards just above the pith and the remainder I sawed ala reverse QSing.

My cam clamps did a good job of reverse rolling the cant. (Not shown is a wedge behind the log to at as a stop.)
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020328.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488329907)

First triangular waste piece.
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020330.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488329915)

Thin waste piece coming off.
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020332.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488329980)

Sawing off the bottom for the last piece.
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020335.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488329999)

QS lumber ranged in width from 3 to 5 inches. Looks to me like there is still some rift sawn but for the 1st time I am pretty pleased.
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020339.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488330067)

The waste is on the left.
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020336.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1488330050)

Comments/suggestions welcome.
Bob

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 28, 2017, 11:02:12 PM
Congratulations, looks like you zeroed in real quick in picture 2, and nailed the fleck on the first wedge.  The fleck on the wedge look better than the through sawn surface.

I noticed that in picture 5, the log had a LOT of grain change, and the fleck moved a lot, which usually means it is very hard to stay on the fleck, however, you were able to cut boards with full width fleck, which again means you were dead on target, especially with the wider boards, as the technique is supposed to do.  The boards look good.

It also looks like the two full width center cut boards had less fleck than the RRQS boards.  This is something I've noticed also, and I have been taking less boards through the pith and getting right to slicing and dicing, as it allows the log half to be thicker, and RRQS boards to be wider.

I'm glad it worked with a manual mill, was it hard to hold? 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on March 01, 2017, 08:23:39 AM
I think the knots in this trial log contributed to the wandering grain.

The hold felt precarious - it was held mostly by gravity - the clamps and wedges mostly just stabilized it enough to keep the cant in place. I sawed slowly so little disturbing force was applied and nothing shifted. I was pleased how it all worked on this small log.

It did take longer than sawing quarters off the bottom and flipping but some of the time was a learning curve. So far I plan for RRQSing to be my go-to method for QS. We will see when I tackle some larger WO on my rollway. Thanks for the feedback.
Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on March 01, 2017, 09:10:28 AM
Bottom line, you've got yourself some purdy boards.  8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on March 02, 2017, 08:31:46 PM
WOW....

Yesterday we tried this technique for the first time and to say the least I was extremely impressed.

We started off with an 11' long WO log with a 19" small end diameter.  This log scaled to 175 board feet on International.  Due to the inherent losses when following traditional quartersawn methods, we anticipate a 30% yield loss over the international scale when following standard quartersawing methods.

However, with the Reverse Roll method we netted 145 board feet actual, which is about 12% greater than expected (18% yield loss instead of 30%).

We followed our standard QS procedures for the first portion of the milling; ie trim off the bark to turn the log into an octagon instead of a square cant, centering the pith on both ends and trimming the bark off on a taper instead of squaring it.  This results in tapered width boards from end to end, but most of our customers don't mind the fact that one end of the board is wider than the other and we get the benefit of a higher yield.

After trimming the bark we followed the Reverse Roll QS method.  We started by marking the medullary rays that we wanted to follow, and then started milling for 5/4 dry measure boards.  Typically we mill 5/4 boards at 1-7/16" to allow for drying related shrinkage (QS shrinks twice as much as FS when drying). 

With the reverse roll method we simply lowered the head 1-1/2" with each cut (after aligning the blade with the top of the partial cant after each turn).  After allowing for blade kerf we are netting a milled board right around 1-13/32" thick which will dry to 5/4.

We found the Reverse Roll method to be faster and easier, and one that clearly produced a higher yield of high fleck material as well as a higher percentage of wider boards. 

Many thanks for sharing this method.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Qweaver on March 02, 2017, 08:56:31 PM
This is what I really love about the Peterson...quarter saw the entire log without turning.  Takes a big log to work well tho'
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on March 02, 2017, 11:06:10 PM
Scsmith42
I'm glad the technique passed the test.  When milling for money, such as you do, higher yield and faster production is what it's all about.
Thanks for letting us know about your success with technique.  I'm glad it showed positive benefit.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on March 03, 2017, 08:00:07 AM
Robert, you need to file a patent.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on March 03, 2017, 08:13:08 AM
If you wanted to end up with some 2 inch dry planed boards (then milled I guess they'd have to be almost 2.5 inches)  would the reverse roll method still be used and could I get QS on both sides?  Or would I just have to accept rift on two sides or quarter on one side and rift on the other?  Part of it would depend on size of log I'm sure- the bigger the diameter, the more forgiving it would probably be to a wider board at the outside.  The biggest I have is 30 on the small end.  I want to build a heavy door like an antique one I've seen and the perimeter rails and styles be quarter sawn WO.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crossroads on March 03, 2017, 10:38:14 AM
Thanks for sharing your technique, I have a couple oak logs laying in my yard that I hadn't decided what to do with them.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on March 03, 2017, 02:15:25 PM
This is what I really love about the Peterson...quarter saw the entire log without turning.
Quartersaw yes, but I doubt that you could effectively "chase the ray fleck" with a swingmill.   ???
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on March 03, 2017, 03:20:48 PM
If you wanted to end up with some 2 inch dry planed boards (then milled I guess they'd have to be almost 2.5 inches)  would the reverse roll method still be used and could I get QS on both sides?  Or would I just have to accept rift on two sides or quarter on one side and rift on the other?  Part of it would depend on size of log I'm sure- the bigger the diameter, the more forgiving it would probably be to a wider board at the outside.  The biggest I have is 30 on the small end.  I want to build a heavy door like an antique one I've seen and the perimeter rails and styles be quarter sawn WO.

It depends upon the log but I think that you would be yielding high fleck QS on both faces of the board.  If you want to net 2" after drying and planing, you probably better mill at 2-5/8" green.  QSWO will shrink 12% or so during drying, so a 2.675" green board will dry to around 2-1/4", allowing you 1/8" per side for S2S.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on March 03, 2017, 07:37:16 PM
Thanks scsmith42!  I have a toe board for my mill now that I will install and show in a post soon.  Next I need to work on a turner and I'll be set.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: paul case on March 03, 2017, 09:00:32 PM
I had never purposely set out to quarter saw any lumber, but this thread crossed with a few white oak logs I was sawing for grade I decided to try it. It worked just as well for me and I was using the old mill with the flip clamp. Sure makes some marvelous looking lumber! Thanks.

PC
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on March 03, 2017, 09:45:52 PM
Paul, I was wondering how my old flip clamp would work, thanks for that bit of info.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on March 03, 2017, 10:56:05 PM
I am greatly pleased folks are having success with this technique. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on March 04, 2017, 07:51:50 AM
Sharing is the Forestry Forum way, and it always makes two people happy.   ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on March 04, 2017, 08:13:34 AM
What's a flip clamp?  Pics?  Or better yet Vid?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: paul case on March 04, 2017, 08:22:07 AM
Here is a video. However I know of more of them like mine where the auto up down flipper doesnt work and you use your God given tools to put it up and down.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGJaiNh8v6I

PC
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on March 04, 2017, 08:25:30 AM
Thanks for this writeup. I'll try it next time.  First Bibby the log, then (Yellow)Hammer it! :D :D :D

Robert, you need to file a patent.

Hey, I'll call it the YellowHammer Reverse Roll Quartersawing Technique

Or the shorter, easier, and much more convienient abbreviation YHRRQST :D :D 

For some reason, "Bibbying" rolls off the tongue better. 

Where's Poston when you need him?   :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on March 04, 2017, 10:16:31 AM
In the Goat pen. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on March 04, 2017, 11:25:01 AM
Doin what goats do.  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on March 04, 2017, 05:56:45 PM
In the Goat pen.

Y'all think ya can talk about me and I won't know it.....shhhhhhh....
I got an I on Y'all.....
Or the shorter, easier, and much more convienient abbreviation ......

IGAIOY.  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on March 04, 2017, 06:01:18 PM
Look out we all have been IGAIOYEd!   :P
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on March 04, 2017, 08:02:01 PM
Oh No!  I have been IGAIOYed. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on March 07, 2017, 10:16:26 PM
I nearly think this post should be a sticky.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 21, 2017, 11:32:32 PM
One of the things I learned at the Sycamore Project was that I needed a bigger chainsaw bar to more conveniently split big logs in half.  For quartersawing, bigger logs is better, and around here, once they get real big, their price goes down because the big mills don't want to mess with them.  So bigger logs for less money means I needed to learn some tricks of splitting logs.  Customsawyer did a great demo ripping a log in half, so it inspired me to get a bigger bar. 

After many, many phone calls I finally located a 52 inch Forester bar. 
Here is the long bar, mounted on the saw, resting on the BushHog, and it seems to do real well so far.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0253.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1498102152)

Here is also the latest load of quartersawn wood straight from the kiln, about to be dead stacked, for its trip to the planer.  About 3,500 board feet, give or take, some boards more than 16 inches wide.  The owner of the commercial wood millwright shop that does the planing told me that he had not seen quartersawn wood that wide in decades and everybody was talking about it at the shop. 

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0229.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1498100964)

 
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on June 22, 2017, 05:24:49 AM
That should do the job, 8) 8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: warren46 on June 22, 2017, 07:01:20 AM
One of the things I learned at the Sycamore Project was that I needed a bigger chainsaw bar to more conveniently split big logs in half.  ... So bigger logs for less money means I needed to learn some tricks of splitting logs.  Customsawyer did a great demo ripping a log in half, so it inspired me to get a bigger bar. 

After many, many phone calls I finally located a 52 inch Forester bar. 
Here is the long bar, mounted on the saw, resting on the BushHog, and it seems to do real well so far.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0253.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1498102152)

Here is also the latest load of quartersawn wood straight from the kiln, about to be dead stacked, for its trip to the planer.  About 3,500 board feet, give or take, some boards more than 16 inches wide.  The owner of the commercial wood millwright shop that does the planing told me that he had not seen quartersawn wood that wide in decades and everybody was talking about it at the shop. 

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0229.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1498100964)

I split this one with a 60 cc saw and a 24" bar.  It took a little work with wedges and a maul to finish the job.

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/33392/Log_Split_Standing.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1497798046)

I got some 22 inch wide boards out of each quarter.
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/33392/Twenty_Inch_Qsawn_Figure.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1497797973)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: rasman57 on June 22, 2017, 03:43:05 PM
Wow.  Sweet!
 I wonder if that blade comes with an optional truss and directions to the chiropractor ... wheeliechair
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Savannahdan on June 22, 2017, 05:22:21 PM
Just lay the bar and chain on the log and it'll do the work.  Have fun!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on September 28, 2017, 07:48:23 AM
I am going to have to work some more on the finer points of reverse roll quartersawing  :D

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2105.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506599270)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on September 28, 2017, 08:11:24 AM
That happens to me too often, quarter sawing or not. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WV Sawmiller on September 28, 2017, 08:25:52 AM
Danny,

   I never do things like that - unless there is a big audience.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: paul case on September 28, 2017, 08:42:07 AM
I thought you was gona talk about reverse roll quarter sawing and here is Danny setting up his skateboard/bicycle ramp on the tire of his sawmill. Obviously he has been grinding that ramp a lot to have the edges all smoothed off at such angles so you know this isn't the first time. ;D ;D ;D

I have had a request from a landowner that we are now logging on, for 800 bdft of q sawn lumber from his post oak trees. They have quite a few that are pretty nice and I hate wasting much of them, so i devised a plan. The logs are big. I think we will be able to saw out a 23'' cant without too much bark on the corners. Then we will saw a 7x9 tie out of the heart leaving 4 pieces that should yield 50% quarter sawn material and the other 50% will be grade,some of which will need edged. I realize that the q sawn stuff will not be perfect, but will yield edged boards that are 6''to 8'' wide.

PC
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 28, 2017, 08:41:51 PM
Well, it was looking good up until then. :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on September 28, 2017, 08:54:22 PM
I looked across the mill at the other tire to make sure there wasn't another ramp over there. :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on September 28, 2017, 09:34:30 PM
I am going to have to work some more on the finer points of reverse roll quartersawing  :D

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2105.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506599270)

oops.....
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on September 28, 2017, 10:45:05 PM
I hate it when that happens :D




Hey I have a public service announcement to all you pith measurers..I noticed at the project I was at two years ago that yawl measure the pith from the bed up to it to level it.  We all know that the log aint never in the perfect spot to do that and sometimes its hard to get an accurate reading.  So I'll just share what I like to do, it might add an extra second to the front end but it takes two off the back end and is more accurate.  I bring the head up high enough to clear the whole log front to back, and drive the sawhead over each end of the log and measure down from the blade to the pith to get it level.  Obviously make sure you don't move the head up or down, keep it at say 34" for example. On the WM mills you can slightly adjust the head to being perfectly over the pith if you over/undershoot it.  I just hook the tape to the back of the blade and measure down.  If the log is too big to drive the head over then u gotta eyeba it and trim it first then adjust it or just do it from the bed.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on September 28, 2017, 11:18:08 PM
4x4, that's how I do it.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on September 28, 2017, 11:29:15 PM
4x4, that's how I do it.


I invented it go away!!  lol
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: ljohnsaw on September 29, 2017, 12:34:54 AM
I just lay a 4 foot level across my rails and measure up from that.  I can do that anywhere.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on September 29, 2017, 07:24:04 AM
I use two T-rulers, one at each end of the mill. See reply #7 in http://www.forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,52765.msg761559.html#msg761559
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on September 29, 2017, 07:51:47 AM
I guess that I am just a Southern Pith Measurer  :).   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on September 29, 2017, 08:22:54 AM
It is a pithy job.   ::)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on September 29, 2017, 09:02:38 AM
4x4, that's how I do it.


I invented it go away!!  lol

Hey, you're the one That made the public service announcement. I was just keeping it all to myself.  ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on September 29, 2017, 10:10:15 AM
That works fine if your blade clears the log but I don't like messing with those little ones.  ;)
Danny I have never shown you that technique.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on September 29, 2017, 10:28:21 AM
Nobody on FF ever "pleads the pith".   :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Roxie on September 29, 2017, 11:54:58 AM
Yer killing me!   :D :D :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: barbender on September 29, 2017, 12:41:34 PM
 :D That's a great idea, both of you :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on September 29, 2017, 02:41:36 PM
No Jake, you are right.  I demonstrated that technique all by myself, but I did not invent it.  I suspect that 4x4 American, D-U-G developed it in secret. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: flatrock58 on September 30, 2017, 09:55:04 PM
I just got a log from the city yesterday.  It is a 36" 100 year old red oak.  I spent most of its life on the edge of a field and the pith is off center a good bit.  If I want to try and maximize the quarter sawn wood would I still try to center the pith or center the log?


 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/37117/IMG_6864.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1506822813)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on September 30, 2017, 10:38:16 PM
Having an off center pith log is a gift when quarter sawing.  Split it down the pith, and concentrate your efforts on the larger "half" of the log.  In essence, since the "half" is actually more then half the log then you will get wider quarter sawn boards from it. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Larry on September 30, 2017, 10:39:34 PM
Look at the rays.  Take a marker and mark them.  This will give you a clear idea of where to put the blade.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: paul case on October 01, 2017, 08:59:44 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrjOiMvc_ro

This guy has a little bit different way of doing it.

PC
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Chuck White on October 01, 2017, 10:23:34 AM
Really nice video Paul!   thumbs-up
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: pineywoods on October 01, 2017, 02:41:43 PM
DANG, that 70 is FAST  ;D Notice the masterful use of that 2 plane clamp, much more than just a clamp..I also notice a trick I frequently use, standing flitches up beside the cant, edge and saw a board at the same time...I'm saving up some big white oak logs to try my hand at quarter sawing...
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 01, 2017, 09:30:15 PM
The guy knows how to run a mill, thats for sure, and the technique he uses is the conventional process that I have moved away from.  Watching him work, I noticed several things that I used to do, but don't do any more using the Reverse Roll.  Not saying he's doing anything wrong, just saying its not how I do it anymore, and I think I can point out the differences and (hopefully) advantages of the RRQS.

First is that after gun barreling he takes a cut directly through the center of the log to split it.  The disadvantage of doing it this way is that after taking his measurements, he takes a single, blind cut through the widest and arguably most valuable piece of the log.  He may hit perfect ray fleck, he may not.  Either way, he can't make an adjustment, and that surface will be turned down to the bed, as a basic index face, for some of other major cuts on the widest and most valuable sections of the quarters.  So the blind center cut has a significant effect on the following boards down the line.  In contrast, I prefer to measure to the center, as he does, but then raise the band enough to take a couple boards higher and cut down through the log center.  That way I get 3 or 4 center cut quartersawn boards, and if the first cut is a miss, then I can make adjustments to maximize fleck before I get to the center boards.

The sawyer in the video then takes the half logs and again centers them up and again takes a measured but blind cut through the widest and most valuable section.  If the ray fleck isn't there, or isn't optimum, then he has to live with it on the successive boards.  Using the RRQS method, the log half is not quartered, and the first cuts are made from the narrowest and least valuable section at the top edge of the log half.  By the time I get to the widest and most valuable section, I have everything dialed in and there is no doubt that I will get optimum and predictable fleck in the widest boards.  No guessing and no blind cuts. 

Also, the sawyer cut perfectly good log halves into quarters which results in just taking more effort and more time per log.  One log is multiplied into 4 quarters that must be individually milled, instead of just 2 halves.  Multiply that by logs, and it makes a difference by the end of the day.  If I start the session with say 4 good logs worth quartersawing, then cutting them into quarters will result in me now having to individually handle and mill 16 quarter sections instead of just 8 halves.   

I'd only used my LT 40 for this technique, but when CustomSaywer at the Sycamore Project used his LT70 with the chain turner and his 2.5 million bdft per year experience, he was done in a flash.  He got in a rhythm because as each board was coming off, all he had to do was glance at it to tell if he needed to tweak the rotation or take another cut.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on October 02, 2017, 07:21:57 AM
The results of the RRQS technique are amazing.  I am pretty slow, but steady. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on October 29, 2017, 08:43:26 AM
I wish I had come across this a few days ago.  :o

Been sawing some BIG old-growth white oaks and got into some INCREDIBLE figure.
Took my time with them, looking for the rays, but use technique similar to the above LT70 operator.

Have about 25 more really big/great logs to saw (white and red) and will focus on this technique. Yellow's statement about how rift/off-quarter boards, not having exemplary rays is spot-on. Might as well be flat-sawn.

When I'm into material like this white oak (see below), that is BIG and very curly, close-enough isn't good enough. Got some awesome material, but need ALL of it to be awesome!

Thanks for the write-up and efforts Yellow!! My wife has proclaimed that she will no longer help me push huge quarters on/off the mill!  :D think_not

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7597.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1509280503)
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7587.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1509280500)

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on October 29, 2017, 09:10:06 AM
I'm planning to have two QS white oak doors built very soon.  Problem is I want some really wicked QS grain so they really stand out.  I haven't ordered them yet because I don't want to let the door company just pick out of their stock and have it not be the wicked grain I want.  I have some white oak logs in the yard, but I'm quite apprehensive to try it on my LT15.  Cutting when the pieces are large and heavy is ok, but when the log half starts getting smaller I'm worried about clamping it/it coming loose and moving. Anyone out there doing it on a manual mill yet?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 29, 2017, 09:27:02 AM
Thanks for the write-up and efforts Yellow!! My wife has proclaimed that she will no longer help me push huge quarters on/off the mill!  :D think_not

That is some nice wood.  Good thing is with this technique as you stated, there is only minimal "hands on" handling of the log halves.  After the first pith cut, assuming the log had a flat bottom due to gunbarreling to reorient it back to the mill deck, release the two plane, slide it all the way under the log to the inboard side, and raise the clamp up while moving it to the loader arms.  It will cause the log to roll and the top log half to nicely slide off the bottom directly onto the loader arms to get it out of the way.  Reclamp the bottom half of the log on the mill and continue taking the pith boards.  No more quarter handling required, no more hernias or pinched fingers.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on October 29, 2017, 07:57:40 PM
It works. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 4x4American on October 29, 2017, 08:48:12 PM
Hey Brad how you like these doors they’re at a place where my friend works




(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/34510/FEEC0301-F509-43FD-8627-1D46CD95294B.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1509324430)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on October 29, 2017, 10:43:42 PM
Yes 4x4American, that grain is pretty wicked.  I'm planning to do a light colored door, that is lighted with antique textured blue chicken wire glass in one(bathroom door) and one with clear antique industrial chicken wire glass.  Both will have vintage handles and mortise lock sets.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 29, 2017, 11:39:34 PM
Cutting when the pieces are large and heavy is ok, but when the log half starts getting smaller I'm worried about clamping it/it coming loose and moving. Anyone out there doing it on a manual mill yet?
I haven't done it on a manual mill, but there are a few tricks to make things more stable when sawing as the cant gets smaller.  First, when as the sections gets smaller, you can set the high side against the backstops and the low side against the clamp. That way the band is pulling it into the backstops and will generally prevent it from rocking.

Also, when I get to the small sections, and get a good QS fleck on a face, I will stop sawng that face while it is still pretty wide and showing fleck and put it on the mill deck.  That accomplishes two things, it makes the cant more stable because a wide face is on the deck, and it also brackets the fleck for the remainder of the cant.  With a good fleck face on the deck, I know that the quicker I hit fleck in the initial cuts, I am guaranteed good fleck all through the cant.

I have had the cant shift while sawing and even at the Sycamore Project, Customsawer had one shift as it got lighter.  Most times you can see it is about to happen because you'll see the piece start to rotate up with the cut, and you can simply slow down and gravity will take over and the piece will rotate back down as the force of the band lessens.  No harm done.  I've never ruined a band when a piece shifts, it just makes a not so flat board.

I've been quartersawing some nice Sycamore last week, about a dozen or so 2' to 3' diameter logs.  Here's the remaining whack of logs after I was about halfway done, some showing some real nice figure on the butts and making some real nice boards.  Sycamore is an all or nothing proposition, and if a board has good fleck, it is worth good money, however if it has no fleck, it's firewood.  Nobody will buy it.  So it's extremely important to hit fleck and stay in it.  There was one log that just wasn't cooperating and showing as much fleck as I wanted, so I started doing some skim cuts, grain chasing and found if I raised the rear toeboard about a half inch, the fleck became superb.  The point is that with this technique, I could fiddle with both the rotation and axis to optimize the fleck with the smaller, narrower boards, and once I found it, game over for the rest of the half log.   
Also, as I mentioned earlier in the topic, and shown in the picture below,  I don't Anchorseal logs I'm going to quartrsaw, as it obscures the end grain and can't see to rotate.  So I mill the logs up unsealed, and seal the entire pack of board end when I'm done and they are sitting on a pallet.   
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0630.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509333832)
   

 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on October 30, 2017, 08:04:40 AM
It is really important to have the cant touching the bed rails all the way down the length of the cant.  As I was learning this technique, if I was not careful, when I bumped the cant up a bit to re-orient the rings to get the fleck, the opposite end of the cant may not be touching the bed rails, and as the blade and sawhead move along the cant cutting the board, the cant would be unstable and shift in the cut.  I cut a few wedges and odd shaped pieces until I figured out what was happening.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on October 30, 2017, 12:01:16 PM
Anyone out there doing it on a manual mill yet?

See reply #79. I plan on doing it again on a larger oak.
Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on October 30, 2017, 07:41:58 PM
Not sealing the logs is key. I try to seal mine immediately upon arrival, but it makes qsawing REALLY difficult, since seeing the growth rings requires Xray glasses.  8)

Yellow's method of chainsawing the whole pack and then sealing seems grand. Gonna try it!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 30, 2017, 11:32:21 PM
Yellow's method of chainsawing the whole pack and then sealing seems grand. Gonna try it!
It will work fine, but here's a couple tips.  Depending on how much you have to cut off, put a bunk or two under the soon to be trimmed off part so they will be supported as they are cut.  No dropping or tipping of the cut ends will allow smooth sawing with no chain binding.

Put a safety board directly under the cut line so that the tip of the chainsaw doesn't accidental sink into the dirt.  If it goes in too far, it will hit the wooden board. 

The longer the bar the better, and angle the saw with the tip up and the handle at about 45° For the first few seconds of the cut, which will prevent the top boards from sliding when the chain starts cutting.  After a bit, rotate the saw to horizontal and then cut through the bottom.  Remember the safety board to keep the saw out of the dirt.



Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 31, 2017, 12:23:15 AM
I was doing a little more RRQS today and thought I'd try to point out a few things that might make it easier to follow.

I have this decent sized 23 inch gunbarreled log ready to go, and one thing to remember about the rotations is that when I get the the middle of the half log, I should be close to perpendicular to the midline pith cut because I know that there will be a couple good boards to get there.  This helps me consider the cuts so I know I have to be on target when I get there.

So I marked a the log with the radial pattern for ease of showing what I mean, and also marked in heavier Sharpie the midline boards I want to be in position to take when I get to that point.  I don't normally mark the board this many times, but did it to illustrate the log half position and angles.  The solid line is the exact midline, the dashed lines above and below are where I want to be when I get there.  After taking the first wedge cut, I'm in the fleck but it's a little light and short.  That's fine because, I know the next cut will be better as I get more alignment. 
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0672.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421674)
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0666.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421677)


Sure enough, the next cut and I'm really in it, below.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0656.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421687)

No need the change anything, so I take another cut.  Still in it.  This is good and bad as I'm starting to get to the point where in need to be rotated to hit the midline boards.  Oh well, never leave a hot fishing hole.  I have a badly set tooth on the band.  Embarrassing.  At least it helps indicate my feed rate.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0674.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421702)

I couldn't leave heavy fleck, so took another board, getting right at the midline.  The fleck is starting to fade out, so I need to do a rotation and get back in it. 
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0667.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421719)

So now I'm rotated up, and have taken off a wedge and another narrow but fleck board and am now set right on the midline target lines, as I wanted to be.  I didn't get full width on the previous or this board due to me sawing so deep before rotating, but it doesn't matter too much and I know I'll be in the fleck with these.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0646.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421727)

It's fine and heavy fleck and so I take another, directly lined up with the centerline Sharpie mark I drew on the half log originally.  Really nice board.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0683.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509421737)

So now I'm halfway through the log half and continue the process with the rest of it until I don't have anything more to whittle on.  This was a pretty forgiving log, and I got fleck on every board, no misses on the entire log.






Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on October 31, 2017, 05:17:04 AM
Another excellent write-up! I have yet to find a nice sycamore log to saw. I'm scoping around to find one, as it's great stuff when qsawn. Thanks for your time to show us "the way"!  8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on October 31, 2017, 08:03:00 AM
I have been pondering this too.  From my perspective in sycamore, if a board does not have fleck it is low value, so cutting all the wedges that are waste is not an issue.

However, I am not so sure with nice white oak.  Using the octagon method without the reverse rolling described in this technique only produces a few starting wedge cuts.  Therefore there is greater yield since you will be sawing more boards and the extra boards will be predominately rift sawn.  Rift sawn white oak is desirable and valuable, unlike with sycamore.  The trade off is that you do not get as many boards with PERFECT figure like you do with the reverse roll.  Maybe we need to do an experiment to compare the results using the octagon method to the reverse roll method.  You would need two logs that were the same size and shape.  This is the data that would be needed.

1).  BF of rift sawn lumber
2).  BF of qsawn lumber with low to moderate figure
3).  BF of qsawn lumber with medium figure
4).  BF of qsawn lumber with very good figure
5).  BF of qsawn lumber with perfect figure

By assigning values to the BF in each of the groups, you could determine the difference between the two techniques in terms of total value of lumber sawn.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: 69bronco on October 31, 2017, 08:06:53 AM
Thanks for taking the time to share that!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 31, 2017, 09:07:07 AM
That's a good idea, and are right, non fleck rift sawn in oak is sellable at flat sawn prices for me, no fleck sycamore is firewood.  Maybe we have a topic for next years Sycamore Project, take a single log, split it in half and do a comparison of the sawing techniques.

I've been trying to come up with a use of the wedge cuts, and was thinking that I could make them a little thicker and turn them into leg stock, even with the sycamore.  If they would stay straight, it would be a marketable product for the waste wedges sawn into square stock. 

During my sawing yesterday, I decided to do one log using the conventional octagon method demonstrated in the video a few posts back.  About halfway through, after a couple misses in the center quarter boards with little or no fleck showing (in sycamore, unsellable boards and blown profit), and it was soooo slow, I was reminded why I hated quarter sawing.  I was ready to pull my hair out.  I was also reminded how much I disliked the guessing game about whether I was going to get fleck, especially since I got some misses.  In truth, I'm not the best octagon sawing guy, that's why I started getting away from it.     
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: delvis on October 31, 2017, 09:47:15 AM
We quarter saw pine for a guy twice a year, who makes his living making shaker boxes, and I'm anxious to try this method here once I get a chance to practice on some of my own stuff.  Very nice.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boardmaker on October 31, 2017, 09:54:35 AM
Delvis,
Does your pine have ray and fleck?  I'm not very familiar with pine since we only saw hardwood.  But if it doesn't, I don't see a benefit.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: delvis on October 31, 2017, 10:20:46 AM
Delvis,
Does your pine have ray and fleck?  I'm not very familiar with pine since we only saw hardwood.  But if it doesn't, I don't see a benefit.

The Shakers used quarter sawn pine traditionally because it was stronger and the grain runs straight down the board unlike flat sawn pine.  The gentleman we saw for makes his boxes in the traditional style so he uses qs pine instead of Baltic birch plywood such as is used today.  So, we quarter saw the pine at 7/16" and we flat saw maple or ash around the heart wood at 3/16".
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on October 31, 2017, 11:19:58 AM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on October 31, 2017, 05:40:31 PM

Danny, based upon more logs than I can remember milling here is your typical answer:

Octagon method of traditional quartersawing:

1).  BF of rift sawn lumber:  20% true rift (30 - 60 degree growth ring orientation)
2).  BF of qsawn lumber with low to moderate figure: 30%
3).  BF of qsawn lumber with medium figure: 20%
4).  BF of qsawn lumber with very good figure: 20%
5).  BF of qsawn lumber with perfect figure: 10%

It will depend upon the log and how straight the medullary cells run from the pith to the bark, but the above averages are pretty close.  Determining ray fleck is subjective though, so YMMV.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on October 31, 2017, 06:47:02 PM
Yellowhammer, very inspiring - Thank you so much for sharing your knowledge and technique! 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on October 31, 2017, 07:34:01 PM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
AKA Rentz Experimental Milling Project Laboratory. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on October 31, 2017, 10:20:41 PM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D
Yep, Danny and I can bring the  popcorn_smiley and  smiley_beertoast

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Andries on October 31, 2017, 11:19:39 PM
I notice a couple of guys on here trying to figure out a way to waste some of my logs and use me as a lab rat.  :D

..... The trade off is that you do not get as many boards with PERFECT figure like you do with the reverse roll.....


With WDH and YH leading the R&D team - it might become "The Perfect Ten Project".

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: dboyt on November 01, 2017, 09:39:44 AM
Thanks for posting!  I've got some 4' diameter sycamore just begging for the reverse roll technique.  This is one of the best (for me) threads on the forum!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 01, 2017, 10:06:17 AM
Dboyt, thanks.  This technique works great for big log halves especially if taking sub wedges as I describe below.

This log was a bigger one, and was a full width between the blade guides.  It was milled as a half log, and I started by taking the big wide high fleck boards as usual.  However, when it comes time to do a rotation, especially on a big log, the wedge cuts can get pretty big and there is a risk of wasting a lot of wood, especially if in good fleck.  This is shown in the picture below, by the big black line.  This is too much wood to take off.  So I take small sub wedges to minimize waste, and get as many boards out of the wedges as I can.  I like to target a 4" minimum width on one side.  The thing to remember is that a quarter sawn high fleck board can be taken anytime the grain configuration is correct, and as the half log changes shape, the orientation can get confusing.  So marking with a Sharpie, then still keeping track of the rays will allow proper alignment even when it seems out of shape.  This is especially important when sawing a log that isn't perfectly round or has an oblong grain pattern.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0686.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509538940)

Heres what it looks like when sawing in the picture below.  I marked a 4" line to help with the photo, and made the cut.  This was a forgiving log, and since the cut was reasonably perpendicular to the growth rings, even though the cut wouldn't go exactly through the axis of the log, I still got good fleck on the face of the cut.  I was able to get a 4" and 7" board from the wedge that could have been wasted.  Thats one of the nice things about this technique, no blind sawing, and its easy to stay in the fleck.  The crosshatched areas are the areas I will trim off later after the boards are dried and I run them thorough our Straight Line Rip saw to basically joint both edges prior to sale.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0696.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509504309)


As the cant gets smaller, it will start to look like a pie slice.  I just keep rotating around, and get as much as I can out of it.  There is a tendency to finish too early and set one side on the bed.  If I did that on this piece, I would have too much angle on the rays and probably wouldn't get a high fleck board.  So I rotate it to optimize the fleck, and the hydraulics are strong enough to hold it stable when I get it where I want it.  If you'll look closely, you can see the cant isn't even touching the mill bed, its about an inch above all the bed rails.  In this case, even though cant was suspended between the backstops and clamp, I used the bed rails as a guide to make sure the piece is aligned with the deck.  Otherwise, a taper cut will happen from end to end, and that will throw successive boards off.
 
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0701.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509504332)

This is getting near the end, and in this case I like to catch and pinch the tip of the pie slice with the clamp face as it lets me adjust the angle very easily and securely simply by moving the clamp up or down.  Once I get to this size, there is generally quarter sawn fleck on both faces of the pie slice.  So there is no way miss fleck, its a sure thing, now its just a matter of getting as much figure as I can.  As it gets smaller, clamping becomes a little more sporty, but no problems, just keep taking boards until everything is gone.     (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0698.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509504337)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 01, 2017, 11:45:52 AM
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 01, 2017, 03:51:14 PM
Scott, that is great information.

I have not been charging for the degree of fleck in QS white oak.  The price is x and the customers pick out what they want. The lower degree of fleck and the higher degree of fleck go at the same price.  It works out, but maybe I need to to price the perfect figure boards at a premium to the average fleck boards.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on November 01, 2017, 04:35:35 PM
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.

Seek out the medullary lines on the end of the log first and mark them as Robert did in his photo's.  Also be sure that your pith is centered above the deck on each end of the log.

Mill to intersect the lines you marked on the log or parallel to them.  You should end up with outstanding fleck.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on November 01, 2017, 04:56:54 PM
Scott, that is great information.

I have not been charging for the degree of fleck in QS white oak.  The price is x and the customers pick out what they want. The lower degree of fleck and the higher degree of fleck go at the same price.  It works out, but maybe I need to to price the perfect figure boards at a premium to the average fleck boards.

Danny, what I've found is that if you don't differentiate prices, your local customers will sort through the stack and pick out the very best boards and frequently choose the very widest boards.  Then when all you have left is low fleck narrow boards the customers that legitimately wanted high fleck will be disappointed and you'll get a bad rep.  Or you will lose a sale because you were out of high fleck product.  Plus you're leaving $ on the table.

A small percentage of your customer base (say 5%) will want your very best lumber, and they are willing to pay a premium for it.  So let's call these boards "Danny's select QSWO".  You should be able to charge a 15% premium over your regular high fleck for these "hand selected, highest fleck" boards.  Think about log-matched product too.  We have not yet started charging a premium for log matched lumber but it's a big selling point for us.  At some point in the future we will probably start keeping inventory of log matched lumber.

Pricing high fleck 10% - 20% above medium fleck discourages people from grabbing your high fleck boards when they don't really need them (think skirts for tables, seat slats, back sides of cabinets, etc). 

Once the lumber comes out of the kiln, we separate it into high fleck, low/medium fleck, and rift in our inventory room.  It's also separated based upon width (I store the boards vertically which makes it easier to review figure) but some is also stored in bulk.

Pricing wide boards at a premium (we charge more per bd ft in 2" increments for lumber wider than 8") prevents someone from purchasing a 12" wide QS board only to rip it into 2" strips.  I charge twice as much per board foot for a 12" QSWO High fleck board as I do for a 6" board with similar figure.  And why not - it's a rare product and the folks that truly want wide QS will not hesitate to pay for it (think cabinet case sides, table leafs, and single panels for frame and panel doors).  And some guy with a 6" jointer won't be tempted to rip a 12" wide board into narrow strips just because he is trying to end up with a little less waste.  A 12" qs board requires a log at least 30" or so in diameter (after you cut out the sap and pith wood).  These logs are rare, are harder on your equipment and more time consuming to mill.  So you should demand a premium for the product that they produce.

My 2 cents.

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 01, 2017, 11:31:34 PM
Tried this on a big white oak yesterday and was not able to really get into he fleck as I wanted to and had a LOT of waste. I have to study your postings more/better. I like the plan, just need to learn the game, I suppose. I took some pix that I'll post.

Seek out the medullary lines on the end of the log first and mark them as Robert did in his photo's.  Also be sure that your pith is centered above the deck on each end of the log.

Mill to intersect the lines you marked on the log or parallel to them.  You should end up with outstanding fleck.

Centering pith is something I haven't talked about much but it is a necessary step in any quartersawing process, and the more accurate the alignment, the better the figure.  As done in a conventional QS technique, the first two opening 90° face cuts are made using a tape to measure off the bed to the center of the pith.  This is really an indirect measurement, I.e. measure from the bottom of the log to the pith so that the cut on the top of the log is correct.  Sometimes this is not always accurate.  Generally it's OK, but pith does funny things.  So I'll cut the first 90° faces as accurately as possible measuring from the deck and and then as soon as I cut each, I will double check by taking a direct measurement from the actual cut to the pith on both ends.  If I'm off any appreciable amount I will make a slight adjustment with the toeboards and skim it right before I rotate.  Once I have two dead on faces, then I don't have to use the tape measure anymore, and will use these faces as references for the opposite ones, as well as an gun barrelling or octagon cutting.  It's very important to keep these octagon faces and edges very straight and aligned with the pith and reference faces.  Since the log halfs are rotated and will be supported on the octagon faces and edges, the boards will take on any misalignment and fleck will suffer.

So when I make my first reference cuts, and double check them for accuracy, I will generally mark the most accurate pith to edge face with the Sharpie and that is the one I will place against the bed to make the first cuts to split the log.  Here's a picture of a log I milled today, and you can see the horizontal Sharpie face line I used to indicate the most accurately sawn face so it doesn't get lost in the gun barreling process and I know to rotate it to the bed for the first cuts.  Also, notice how off center the pith is on this log.   

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0671~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1509592253)

Once I have rotated that marked face to the bed, I will split the log, taking a couple boards above and below, and these should have good fleck on at least on face.  If not, there is a problem.  Generally, these look good and it's time to turn and burn. 

All this take lots of words to describe but in reality it goes pretty fast and is the same steps that that are taken even if using the octagon method.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 02, 2017, 06:36:10 AM
Scott,

I am charging a width premium on all lumber, not just QSWO.  I am going to start sorting by fleck as you suggest. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 02, 2017, 06:59:05 AM
Well, so much for my posting the pix of the sawing of white oak, as I suggested...it's rather ominous that my iPhone6 begun to seriously fail as soon as the 8 and X iPhones were announced.  >:( :snowball:

I have some other REALLY big oaks to saw, so want to get this nailed. I will use my regular camera and take some pix of the process again.  :-\

One oak I just got in was about 39" on the small end, so want to be sure to do it justice! There was a little metal in the upper that you can see on the end. Hopefully, the stain doesn't go too far. :(  Ends are anchor-sealed now to minimize degrade, but I'll slice that off when getting to the saw, so I can see the rings, grain orientation, etc.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/53083480799__F5DAA55A-C822-4BAE-B3E9-7EB3545BF349.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1509619760)
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/53083498358__C88EB650-ADBE-49CF-BCDE-21202414476F.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1509619770)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 02, 2017, 09:33:03 AM
Looking at the bottom picture of your butt log, that one may be tricky.  The growth rings at the sapwood/heartwood interface are very erratic and change directions a lot, and also I can see the rays are moving a lot.  The more round and predictable the growth rings the more predictable the rays and so the fleck.  Also, it have a very indistinct and confused pith, with one major pith split and another smaller one I'd guess an inch or two to the right.  Oddly, sometimes these types of logs provide great fleck because they have rays are all over the place.

When taking the center pith boards it will be very important to read them on this log (all logs really) as its not unusual to get distinctively different fleck from one side of the board to another, indicating that the log will be unforgiving and that being off just a little on the following rotations will compromise fleck.  This also lets me read the boards and tells you how to get the best fleck.  If all faces have great fleck, then it means the log can be forgiving and I can be a lot more off angle and still gets good fleck.  Less rotations, less wedge cuts, less waste.  I also look to see if the fleck runs down the length of the board, or if it appear and disappears, or if is evenly distributed across the width of the board or more prevalent on the edges of the board.  Generally, once I read these pith boards, it's time to turn and burn.

Since I'm going for high fleck boards, and certainly fleck on one face of every board, its important get a feel for the log, and know when I'm about to get into fleck and more importantly, when I'm about to get out of it.  Its a very visual process, but since it is, feedback is instant and thats what I like about it.

One thing I would suggest is putting a lower value log or two on the mill and getting a feel for the technique, allowing a little more experimentation without the operator stress.  Also, after every board, anticipate how to get better fleck on the next, and make adjustments if required.  If its a low value log, then skim cuts and adjustments to chase fleck are less painful.  I remember the first couple logs I started with, I cut them up pretty aggressively, chasing fleck like a hound chasing a rabbit, until I got the hang of it.  The goal is to get fleck on at least one face of every board, zero misses.  However, if there is a miss, its important to get a feel what adjustments to make. 

However, it all starts with getting good fleck on the pith boards.

Once it clicks, then you'll be amazed how easy it is.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 02, 2017, 09:45:56 AM
Thanks much for your investment in explaining this! It looked so easy on your postings that even a caveman could do it!  :D

Yet, I was chasing it HARD when sawing a big white oak the other day and didn't reward me much at all, other than the joy of pushing the top cut off which slide RIGHT INTO the loader arms! SWEET!  8)

I'm gonna go now and snap a few pix of the resultant boards and post so you can see.

Yesterday I was shuffling my log pile around and put aside some nicer red oak 8' shorts, larger enough to quarter and will play with them. I also have some big poplars that I want to quarter...not for fleck, but people sure like them for secondary woods, like drawer bottoms.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: tburch on November 13, 2017, 03:13:28 PM
YH, thanks for posting this.   I gave this a try yesterday.  I'm not so new to milling, as I've been using a swing blade for a couple years, but I am fairly new to milling with a band mill - I picked up a used Cook AC36 a couple months ago.  I've only cut a half dozen logs so far. 

I got a 14-15" post oak loaded up and was successful in getting it skinned, and then I cut it in half - great figure, obviously.  But then I stalled in my endeavor and ended up getting sidetracked on other interruptions. 

I see an advantage you Woodmizer guys would have in this technique, versus me, who has a Cooks.   A Cooks has the loader on the right, as the Woodmizer does, but the log stops (Cooks calls them squaring arms) are on the right and the log clamps (y'all have been calling them two plane clamps) are on my left.  So, when I load a log onto the bed, the log clamps actually do the stopping of the rolling movement of the log, and then the clamps (or log turner) can be used to push the log back to the right against the squaring arms.  The blade of the Cooks also runs the same direction as the Woodmizer, so on the Cooks, the hydraulic log clamps are always getting the brunt of the force from the blade going through the log. 

So, that's the big difference - clamping is backwards.    So, I'm situated on the right side of the log, and the moving clamps are on the left side (AKA "the dark side of the log", if you will).  While I worked the controls and attempted to learn how to roll the log, I could not see the clamps.  I don't have a visual for the location (or height) of the clamps because the log is blocking my view, and I was continually having to move around or lean over the bed to see what was happening.   A bit of a time consumer.   And, of course, I'm still getting the feel for all the controls.   And… (yet another excuse…) my log clamps don't seem to be getting full power from the hydraulic system, so that's a bug I am working on with Cooks service right now.   Right now, since my clamps don't have full power, I have to use the chain log turner to move the log against the squaring arms and I'm still working it like a bull in a china shop.  I believe I will need full power to the clamps in order to roll the log/cant, since it will be the clamps that the log will have to roll on.  I think I might even have to make some new caps for my clamps, as they are designed to bite into the log, and not be slippy slidy so the log can slide on them.   Or, can the round side (outer edge) of the log be against my squaring arms?  I guess they could, since most of the weight will always be under the blade. 

Anyway, I'm looking forward to gaining experience with this technique.  Thanks for the time you (and others) have spent documenting the process. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on November 13, 2017, 08:18:17 PM
I RRQS all day today.  There were times when I had the cant up onto the Side Supports, and times that I had the cant up onto the Log Clamp.  When the cant wanted to be contrary, I just showed it who was boss and sawed that sucker anyway.  There really are no rules as long as you follow the growth rings and rays.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 13, 2017, 09:22:40 PM
MM,
That is the key!  8)

I consider it freestyle sawing!  Thats why I like it so much.  Its a "do what it takes, find the figure, run it down and don't let it get away" kind of thing. 

I would have like to watch you work the logs.  I hope it turned out well.     

Tburch,
Thanks for giving it a go, maybe using a Cooks it should be called FRQS (Forward Roll Quartersawing).  Main thing, as MM says, manipulate the cant any way you can to get the rays lined up.  Full power to the hydros would be useful, though.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: tburch on November 20, 2017, 04:16:08 PM
I was able to complete the oak I started on.  Very happy with the results.  Lots of big wide flecks.  Several narrower boards, but for a 19" log, it was a good one to start with and practice on.   I got a few boards with great figure that defied the rules of nature.  I was off a bit when cutting along the rays, for example, the top of the board face lined up with the ray, but the bottom didn't, so much, but I still got great figure on the bottom of the boards, and the rays were only running about 1/2 the width of the board before they exited the face of the board.   Go figure.   Perhaps the grain twisted just inside the end of the board and lined the ray with the face up better - I didn't take the time to inspect at the time- the saw was still running. 

Time will get me faster rolling the log.  I sawed with the roll to the right and left, depending on what needed cutting next, or which roll prohibited me from cutting a certain direction.   The Cooks saws doesn't allow much overhang past the log stops on the right side (the side of the fixed guide).    I didn't take any pictures.   There wasn't THAT much waste, and what waste there was nice and clean and even pretty good looking, if you are looking for quarter sawn wedges.  ;)   I haven't edged the wedges from the sides of the boards yet either.  I'll do that after it dries. 

The next same-size oak log in the queue is much larger diameter, but has too many big limb knots to mess with cutting for figure.  I might be able to cut 1/3 to 1/2 of it for figure. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 20, 2017, 09:20:12 PM
I'm glad you had success.  There is a learning curve, but sounds like you have gotten the hang of it.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 21, 2017, 07:15:38 AM
I was off a bit when cutting along the rays, for example, the top of the board face lined up with the ray, but the bottom didn't, so much, but I still got great figure on the bottom of the boards, and the rays were only running about 1/2 the width of the board before they exited the face of the board.   Go figure.   

That is why it is important to have the pith the same distance from the bed on both ends of the log.  If a log is very crooked, this can be very difficult or impossible to do because the pith wanders with the shape of the log.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on November 21, 2017, 08:33:52 AM
I QS'ed one last week where the pith was on one side of the log and on the complete opposite side on the other end.  No matter.  I measured from the bed leveling the pith and the sawing was successful.  Yup, there was sapwood waste, but the QS yield was acceptable.

You must pay attention to what the log gives you and make adjustments accordingly.  Remember with all sawing, the log is the boss.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 22, 2017, 06:08:21 AM
Put a 24" red oak up the other day and did RRQS on it. Centered the heart...was off about 1". Every single boards coming off was (new term: RWR="riddled with rays". )

Seemed like with 10-15° of vertical grain was necessary, allowing 2-3 cuts before rolling it.

A prior mistake I was making is not keeping the rollers up that I leveled with, thus causing the rays to drop-off at one end.

I'm very thankful for my edger for this process. Without it, the labor would increase a lot (or the end result wouldn't be so pretty) unless straight-lining it like Yellow does.

More big oaks on deck, read to go over the coming days. 4' diameter sycamores on the way. (Thanksgiving is a fine time to round-up family for some saw time!)  :D

smiley_turkey_dancing
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 22, 2017, 08:05:25 AM
I'm glad you had success. 
Leveling the pith and and staying level is an important foundation for the process.  Straight logs can be leveled pretty quick, funky ones take a couple round trips from one end of the log to the other with a tape measure to get it right.

I like to be at least within 1/4" to 1/8" to the apparent center of the pith. That's also why I like to make my first opening cut by measuring up from the bed as with conventional techniques, but then double checking the distance by measuring down from the just completed cut to the pith.  If I'm off a little, it's easy to tweak the toe board and make a quick skim cut.  Generally, I only have to measure and check the first two 90° faces so it goes fairly quick.  It's also important to make sure the gunbarreling cuts are pith level also, but that's easy because if the 90° faces are correct, then the gunbarrelled corner cut will look very straight and not be tapered.  If there is a taper, then it should be corrected.  Typically I will make these cuts by eye.

Also, it's important to not take off too much sapwood when gunbarreling, as sometimes that is the best QS figure. 

Edging is a pain.  However, since I don't do it when the boards come off the mill because seems like although QS will dry flat, it will generally curve, I found I was edging twice, once off the mill then again when we dress the kiln dried boards.  So now I just skip the edging off the mill unless it's an easy board, and just handle it after drying with the SLR. 


Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 23, 2017, 07:06:01 AM
The "C" curves with quartersawing is just part of the the price for fantastic wood.  Getting all the juvenile wood out will greatly reduce this curve, but it will not totally eliminate it.  I find that some boards have to be cut in half lengthwise, but that does not hurt sales as these shorter boards are fine for most furniture projects.  I have always edged green off the mill, but one my next WO log, I just might wait until dry, then edge.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: ellmoe on November 23, 2017, 07:27:34 AM
Edging is a pain.  However, since I don't do it when the boards come off the mill because seems like although QS will dry flat, it will generally curve, I found I was edging twice, once off the mill then again when we dress the kiln dried boards.  So now I just skip the edging off the mill unless it's an easy board, and just handle it after drying with the SLR. 

    We quit edging to final size all green hardwood as they come off the mill. I found out that much of my kd hardwood was being re-edged down a size because of drying stresses. Now we edge of the "ugly" to reduce wasted space in the stack and directly stack all other boards. We edge after drying and see increased yields and easier planing/moulding.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: randy_atx on November 23, 2017, 08:46:41 AM
Rings mean nothing.  I always mark the rays (red marks) for the best flake.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10125/DSCF8878.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1461896183)

After a while it becomes clear as too which log will be the easiest to quarter saw.  It is also helpful to look at both ends of the log. 

The thickness of the rays are also an excellent predictor of flake quality.  The thicker the ray the better.


How do you locate the rays with this technique? Serious question.  Thanks
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on November 23, 2017, 10:57:57 AM
If you look closely at the end of a WO log you will see a lot of  tiny cracks. Saw parallel to these cracks.  That is if you want to use the end as a guide. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: xlogger on November 24, 2017, 05:01:21 AM
I found the video that Poston put on youtube about Jake quartersawing, is there a next part to it? Only see to the point where you level up the log. I've got a nice white oak and sycamore that would be a good one to try this. Not sure since it looks like I'd be spending a good bit of time edging, since I don't have an edger.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: samandothers on November 24, 2017, 07:20:36 AM
Randy

Look at post 69 in this thread shows a good picture of the ray running perpendicular to the growth rings.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 24, 2017, 07:49:26 AM
Got some pretty good results the other day on a lower-value, smaller-sized red oak. Centered it up within 1/4 inch or so, cut through the pith, pushed the top half off and it slid into the arms in one action (just the savings on my back makes this technique SWEET!).

Almost every single board came off looking great. Could get 2-3 cuts before rolling again. Here's some of the RRQS porn, after coming off the edger onto sticks.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7678.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1511527466)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7677.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1511527522)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7681.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1511527523)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on November 24, 2017, 07:54:03 AM
Beautiful stuff.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on November 24, 2017, 09:22:13 AM
Those are some real nice looking boards.  You've got this now. 8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on November 24, 2017, 11:27:36 AM
PA_Walnut, you keep that up and you're going to have to change your name to PA_Oak.  :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: D6c on November 24, 2017, 01:39:53 PM
Funny, the other day I sawed a red oak...cut about 1/2 of the log as 1/4 sawed but there wasn't any fleck at all.  Wasn't using the RRQS method but they were good qtr. sawed cuts.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on November 24, 2017, 08:04:06 PM
Nice lumber, PA_Walnut
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on November 24, 2017, 08:36:13 PM
Thanks. Not sure it was me or a forgiving log, but gonna do more tomorrow and will report back. Thanks for the encouragement!  8)

Love the results. Thanks Yellow!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: samandothers on November 24, 2017, 08:38:46 PM
Very nice!  I believe you have grabbed the pebble!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crusarius on November 29, 2017, 12:54:38 PM
can anyone post oa pic of the waste from this technique? I see beautiful boards but really curious what the waste / leftovers looks like.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on December 01, 2017, 11:10:06 AM
can anyone post oa pic of the waste from this technique? I see beautiful boards but really curious what the waste / leftovers looks like.

I would post some pix but we just finished cleaning up the slab pile!  You won't have much more waste than with traditional quartersawing - probably 50% more.  Usually I estimate a 30% loss of yield when QS'ing.

But here is the thing about the waste - the definition of a quartersawn board is based upon the angle of the growth rings to the face of the board - not the amount of ray fleck.  However most purchasers of QS lumber desire the high amount of ray fleck.  Using the traditional methods of quartersawing usually yields 30% high fleck material, 30% low fleck QS, and 30% rift.  There is a limited market for low fleck QS.  By using Robert's reverse roll method you can yield a much greater percentage of high fleck QS, which you can sell for a higher price as compared with low fleck or rift.  So even though you may have a bit more waste, you can still net out a greater profit because you can charge more for the high fleck boards.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 01, 2017, 11:44:48 AM
True'dat!

Quartersawn is often desired for it's dimensional stability advantage (by instrument makers, etc) but the desirability of the visual generally exceeds the practicality.
As mentioned here, I'd rather have 1 board with lots of fleck, than 2 with mediocre visual appeal. Rift sawn materials usually aren't desired, however, I really like using it for rails and stiles in order to focus more attention on the panels!  8)


can anyone post oa pic of the waste from this technique? I see beautiful boards but really curious what the waste / leftovers looks like.

I would post some pix but we just finished cleaning up the slab pile!  You won't have much more waste than with traditional quartersawing - probably 50% more.  Usually I estimate a 30% loss of yield when QS'ing.

But here is the thing about the waste - the definition of a quartersawn board is based upon the angle of the growth rings to the face of the board - not the amount of ray fleck.  However most purchasers of QS lumber desire the high amount of ray fleck.  Using the traditional methods of quartersawing usually yields 30% high fleck material, 30% low fleck QS, and 30% rift.  There is a limited market for low fleck QS.  By using Robert's reverse roll method you can yield a much greater percentage of high fleck QS, which you can sell for a higher price as compared with low fleck or rift.  So even though you may have a bit more waste, you can still net out a greater profit because you can charge more for the high fleck boards.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 01, 2017, 12:07:09 PM
The waste generally look like little wedges or thin triangles.  I haven't figured out a use for them yet.  Too small for leg stock.

The waste can be reduced by applying a little windage and sawing high.  For example, when making a correction wedge, at first I was rotating until the exposed face of the wedge had excellent fleck, so I knew that the next board down would have two good faces of fleck.  However, it occurred to me I was wasting potential wood, so now I will make my correction wedge were I will just start to see fleck by starting a little high.  Since the lower face of the board will get better as I get in line with the rays, I "know" the other face of that board will be nice.  Since with QS wood, only one side of the board has to have good visual fleck, I can apply a little windage to get an extra board every now and them.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crusarius on December 01, 2017, 12:16:03 PM
Yellowhammer that is exactly what I was wondering. Whether there was a use for the leftovers. I guess I will have a very well stocked firewood pile when I start sawing.

Thanx
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Kbeitz on December 01, 2017, 12:27:56 PM
Glue all the  triangles back to  together and you will another log to cut...
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Resonator on December 01, 2017, 12:36:09 PM
Find someone that heats their house with wood and you can get paid for the "waste". :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: John S on December 01, 2017, 05:22:18 PM
YH, by "gunbarreling" do you mean trimming the log into a hexagon or octagon type shape before the RRQS?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crusarius on December 01, 2017, 08:56:52 PM
I heat my house with wood :)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 01, 2017, 11:30:06 PM
YH, by "gunbarreling" do you mean trimming the log into a hexagon or octagon type shape before the RRQS?
Yes, it should look like the old Henry style gun barrels.  Octagon shaped by skimming the four faces of the log level to the pith, then faceting the corners also level to the pith.
(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_0033~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512188951)

Unfortunately this is a tedious process but common to all quarter sawing techniques. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 01, 2017, 11:36:03 PM
Yellowhammer that is exactly what I was wondering. Whether there was a use for the leftovers. I guess I will have a very well stocked firewood pile when I start sawing.

Thanx
Problem is even the waste looks good.  Sweet little triangle sticks with ray fleck on one face.  Eveytime I look at the waste pile I think I should be able to use it for something.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: caveman on December 02, 2017, 07:45:48 AM
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/22883/0104131409.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1357499408)

Robert, if you stumbled across someone who makes small boxes you may establish a market for the thin pieces which could be cut out of the wedge shaped pieces with good ray fleck. 

The boxes pictured are devoid of figure and are from a machinist's tool box project I started and abandoned several years ago.  (Australian Pine).  I still have a wedge of spalted sycamore from the Sycamore Project standing up by a pallet rack in my shop waiting on me to find a little time and ambition.

You may even pile some of the nicer ones in a "free with every purchase pile" and have a free pile brag board to display photos of some of the projects that they were used to construct.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: John S on December 02, 2017, 09:24:52 AM
YH, thanks!  Great post!!!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crusarius on December 02, 2017, 05:59:42 PM
Yellowhammer that is exactly what I was wondering. Whether there was a use for the leftovers. I guess I will have a very well stocked firewood pile when I start sawing.

Thanx
Problem is even the waste looks good.  Sweet little triangle sticks with ray fleck on one face.  Eveytime I look at the waste pile I think I should be able to use it for something.   

Acoustic dampers? Could make some really neat acoustic panels. Probably be a market for them in home theaters or even commercial buildings.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Crusarius on December 02, 2017, 06:01:10 PM
I like cavemans idea. But I would make those shadow boxes not drawers.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: woodyone.john on December 02, 2017, 06:45:49 PM
Yellowhammer that is exactly what I was wondering. Whether there was a use for the leftovers. I guess I will have a very well stocked firewood pile when I start sawing.

So could a possible product like picture frame stock be run out of these odd triangle sections and edgings ?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 02, 2017, 10:59:28 PM
I don't know, they could be used for a number of things that could be made of thinner stock if the wedges were run through a resaw.

We have had one customer get the wedges and since they are 8 feet long, cut them into three pieces and make short triangle shaped table legs. 

Could always turn them into tomato stakes or pen blanks. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 03, 2017, 05:49:19 AM
We have been taking our sizable chunks and making "artisan" charcoal and smoker chunks.
My wife chops them with a miter saw and puts them in nice little bags. People like a little TLC where it comes to their food making.

Kinda started when I cut down some hickory and sawed the butt logs, but didn't want to use the smaller uppers for lumber. So, I 8/4'd them on the mill, hacked them in to squares with my chop saw, for use in my own smoker. Smaller pieces are good since hickory can become overwhelming when smoking most meats other than bacon.

Not sure if it's actually profitable if counting my labor, but it's fun and uses the bigger scraps for something worth.  8)
Title: RRQS joy fades quickly to black.
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 03, 2017, 06:52:01 AM
On a more solemn note. Not all big oak logs are worthy.  :(

I got this BIG 40" white oak from a local dude I know that didn't want to wrestle it on his small LT15 mill. We noticed stain on the end, but figured it was on the cut-off since metal detector didn't find it. You can actually see them through the AnchorSeal in this pic.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7904-1.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1512301059)

Wrestled the thing for 2 hours to rip it in half with chainsaw. Finally got it. (really turned pink when air hit it).

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7913.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512300683)

Started the RRQS and realized the 1/2 was too big to clear the top of the carriage and/or the sides, so made some full width slab cuts. But the horror began...

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7911.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1512298126)

Made some cuts without actually hitting metal, but the significant stains were everywhere. (disregard the pine sitting on the arms from an 8x8 I cut right before this).

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7910.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1512298134)

The pain continued through almost the entire half log. Since I didn't hit any actual metal that I could determine, must've been something small and/or really soft that just deteriorated, yet wreaked havoc on this thing.  :-\

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7909.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1512301254)

So, most of a day spent getting REALLY wide, full of rays quarter sawn white oak that has not-so-nice black stripes in it. I tried to edge off most of the black and will make SOMETHING of it, but not a fun day. It was getting dark, so I'll take some pix of the edged stock today. Some was 12-14" wide after edging.

The good news is that the other half doesn't show the stain and I sent the dude whom I got it from, some pix and he's a really stand-up kinda guy and immediately offered to replace it. (which is REALLY decent since I figure the risk is always assumed by the dude who saws it).  ;D

Stay tuned for more RRQS updates from the hood.   ::)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Jemclimber on December 04, 2017, 09:11:37 AM
You just need a catchy name to sell it, like charred oak, similar to denim pine, and then up the price.  ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: catalina on December 04, 2017, 10:52:02 AM
PAWalnut, if the stained part has good fleck-save it for yourself, make something out of it and use steel wool dissolved in white vinegar as a stain. you can get a fairly close surface match to iron stain. Gene 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on December 04, 2017, 12:28:18 PM
PAWalnut, if the stained part has good fleck-save it for yourself, make something out of it and use steel wool dissolved in white vinegar as a stain. you can get a fairly close surface match to iron stain. Gene

x2
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 05, 2017, 05:56:06 AM
Yes, it has really good fleck and clear...great material except that dang metal. Interestingly, didn't effect the blade, etc. but really tainted the wood. Not sure what it is/was in that thing, but you can even see little spots here and there. See pix for the pain. :(

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8465.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512469325)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8470.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512469379)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8471.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512469405)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8473.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1512469419)

The other half of the log doesn't exhibit the same metal clues that the first one did. Hopefully, it will be better. Will post results.

Moral of the story is: don't let log-lust lure you into deceit. I saw the metal in the end and hoped for the best.   [taking a silent moment to bow my head.]  smiley_mellow

I'm gonna follow it through the process to drying, etc. Never know if someone may think it's got "character" and is cool. If not, I'm building a cabin and may use it for "conversational flooring".  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 05, 2017, 08:48:36 AM
It definitely looks different.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on December 05, 2017, 09:01:44 AM
I have had customers rave over nail/metal stained lumber, and especially the actual metal.  They used it where the metal/stain would be their badge of honor or trophy. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Resonator on December 05, 2017, 09:08:01 AM
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade. (Old saying).
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: ljohnsaw on December 05, 2017, 09:39:46 AM
Does the stain continue up out the top end of the log?  If so, the metal was up higher.  If not, have you tried your metal detector (not your blade, ;) ) yet to see if you can find it now?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on December 05, 2017, 05:49:07 PM
I have had customers rave over nail/metal stained lumber, and especially the actual metal.  They used it where the metal/stain would be their badge of honor or trophy.

I have a bucket full of Trophies.  ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 05, 2017, 06:10:15 PM
Whatever it is, is invisible to my detector...now and before. Maybe I need a new one. However, I always confirm it's working by putting it to my pocket of keys or something and it starts squawking.  :-\

Maybe I need to market it as "Metal Meets Wood: The Showdown" or call it "Peace Era Hardwoods" (no mention of which one) and maybe a bearded dude with a flannel shirt,uncomfortably tight jeans, a MacBook Pro, a Carmel Mocha Orange Zest free-trade coffee and a pocket full of organic cashews with want it.  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: alan gage on December 06, 2017, 09:30:51 AM
I was cutting down some oak trees a few weeks ago and one had heavy iron stain in the butt. It was about 140 years old and the stain looked to be within the first 40 years of its life. The tree was long dead and pretty cracked up so I decided to use it as firewood rather than save it for the sawmill. Started bucking it up and splitting the rounds to see what had caused the stain. All I was able to find was a sliver of a nail that was left. Almost rusted completely away.

Alan
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on December 06, 2017, 02:34:27 PM
I opened one up last week that from the size it obviously had been a small nail, but was now only black powder.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: xlogger on December 08, 2017, 04:36:22 AM
I've just started ¼ sawing some lately. Looked over this post several times and agree its slow the way in the video on here did it. But that's the way I did one yesterday and got some nice boards. Question is that I don't have an edger and rrqs might be faster on sawing but how much time again do you have to put in it on edging? Not sure it was worth it. I was planning on getting an edger last year but decided on getting a slabber saw. Still looking for an used one in my area but no luck so far.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 08, 2017, 05:28:25 AM
For me, it would be rough w/o an edger or straight-line rip. As a matter of fact, an edger has made ALL of my sawing easier and faster since I really dislike edging on the mill. I can edge a whole day's worth of sawing in less than an hour with someone offloading to stacking.

However, a qsawn board full of flecks is worth a LOT more in my market, so it's worth is to take the extra time and/or labor to make it. I've considering making a "set" or "bundle" of material that is same-tree with the qsawn material featured, but some lesser, perhaps rift sawn lesser boards part of it for rails/stiles, etc. Same-tree sets have a lot of appeal in my market, especially exceptional material.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 11, 2017, 07:39:22 AM
Well, in the way of an update, the 2nd half of my metal-infested white oak seems to be producing better stuff. However, I think this log is cursed: Had to cut off the flare with my saw and it fell on my toe (yes, I need steel toes NOW), 1/2 fell off the mill when trying to turn it, broke a blade, until finally I shut'er down for the day...had a bourbon and decided to regroup at a later time.

The wide RRQSawn is looking good, allowing 2-3 boards before needing to roll, take a wedge and cut again.
Some of it is getting really pink when the air hits it.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8567.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995499)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8570.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995484)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8571.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995479)

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on December 11, 2017, 07:52:20 AM
All my white oak pinks up, too.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 11, 2017, 08:00:11 AM
Hope your foot is OK.  The wood looks great.  If your are turning big halves toward the backstops, move the head about midway down the carriage, so it blocks the cant from rolling off.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 11, 2017, 08:01:39 AM
All my white oak pinks up, too.
Its interesting it turns pink, so does my sycamore, which will sometimes turn very red.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: nativewolf on December 11, 2017, 08:01:50 AM
Well, in the way of an update, the 2nd half of my metal-infested white oak seems to be producing better stuff. However, I think this log is cursed: Had to cut off the flare with my saw and it fell on my toe (yes, I need steel toes NOW), 1/2 fell off the mill when trying to turn it, broke a blade, until finally I shut'er down for the day...had a bourbon and decided to regroup at a later time.

The wide RRQSawn is looking good, allowing 2-3 boards before needing to roll, take a wedge and cut again.
Some of it is getting really pink when the air hits it.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8567.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995499)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8570.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995484)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8571.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995479)

Try a pair of boots with composite toe protection, they are much warmer.  Based on several threads on this forum I bought a pair of Haix and after a bit of wear in they are doing really well right now.  Others make composite as well.  Just one more instance of this forum really helping out, I have cold feet and am a bit clumsy so I was looking for the best boots possible.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 11, 2017, 08:03:28 AM
Never thought of that. Great idea. I seems to be having issues of the back edge (toward the uprights) sticking out too far at times and getting the carriage hung-up. This causes a HUGE pita as I have to back out of the cut. Am I doing it wrong?  :-\
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on December 11, 2017, 08:05:34 AM
Thanks for the tip. Seems to be on ongoing curse. Over the summer, dropped a HUGE flitch on my toe...will spare the details. Then, just was it was healing...did similar.
Last week, was unhitching my plow off the UTV and dropped the blade edge on the other toe. :(
Steel toes are gonna be my new friend!  :D :D
Well, in the way of an update, the 2nd half of my metal-infested white oak seems to be producing better stuff. However, I think this log is cursed: Had to cut off the flare with my saw and it fell on my toe (yes, I need steel toes NOW), 1/2 fell off the mill when trying to turn it, broke a blade, until finally I shut'er down for the day...had a bourbon and decided to regroup at a later time.

The wide RRQSawn is looking good, allowing 2-3 boards before needing to roll, take a wedge and cut again.
Some of it is getting really pink when the air hits it.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8567.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995499)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8570.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995484)

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_8571.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1512995479)

Try a pair of boots with composite toe protection, they are much warmer.  Based on several threads on this forum I bought a pair of Haix and after a bit of wear in they are doing really well right now.  Others make composite as well.  Just one more instance of this forum really helping out, I have cold feet and am a bit clumsy so I was looking for the best boots possible.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on December 11, 2017, 08:15:22 AM
Never thought of that. Great idea. I seems to be having issues of the back edge (toward the uprights) sticking out too far at times and getting the carriage hung-up. This causes a HUGE pita as I have to back out of the cut. Am I doing it wrong?  :-\
You can also forward roll the half log, with the high back edge set up toward the idler wheel, and lower edge against the backstops.  You can get a little more clearance that way.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on January 27, 2018, 08:48:44 PM
This is my 2nd try at RRQS and since I have a non-hydraulic mill I have taken a slightly different approach. The frequent reverse turning as developed by YH proved too labor intensive on a manual mill so here's what I came up with:
As usual I octagonalize the log and cut 2 to 3 full width boards from the middle leaving 2 almost half logs. Remove 1 half log and saw the other one in large wedges - usually 3 of them. (The log I am working on now is 7.5 ft long and 28 dia so the wedges are fairly easy to relocate to the end of the mill where they are out of the way.) I then have 1 wedge to manipulate which is faster (and safer) than the half log. I am extremely pleased with the ray fleck I got even though the pics don't reveal it very well. If I get good fleck on 1 side I am happy and I usually get dramatic rift pattern on the other. So it is win - win to me. I am a happy camper.
Bob

Below shows the boom loader/turner in reverse roll mode and a come-along which I use to pull the log back to the squaring arms
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020574.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517096306)

Below shows blocks fastened with c-clamps on the operator side to keep the log from sliding.
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020576.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517098768)

Below shows adjustable stops on the back side to hold the log in place so the cableing can be removed.
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020577.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517098945)

Below - making the first wedge cut. (Ignore the upright sq arms. pic taken out of sequence)
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020575.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517096306)

Below, making the 2nd wedge cut. Looks pretty precarious like a one arm hand stand but it stays stable even for much smaller pieces (fingers crossed)
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020580.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517099269)

Last 2 pics are some results. Much better in life than in the pics.
 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020581.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517099468)

 

 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13036/P1020582.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517099526)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on January 27, 2018, 09:12:42 PM
Looks mighty fine from here and I see nothing wrong with your approach.  If it works, it works.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on January 27, 2018, 09:14:48 PM
Beautiful results.  The proof is in the pudding (old saying). 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 27, 2018, 10:28:25 PM
Good work. Those boards look great.  Full wide - full board, fleck.  That's hitting the target.  Something about boards like that make me smile.   :)

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on January 27, 2018, 10:58:13 PM
Beautiful results.  The proof is in the pudding (old saying).

And that's DanG good pudding. Beautiful results!  Thanks for posting.  And I'm smiling too.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: tburch on January 29, 2018, 10:51:24 AM
Kellog - good post and nice supporting pictures.   Good idea to make 6 big wedges for easier handling.  I like your improvised clamping aids too.   

Question - when you are cutting the almost-half log into 3 wedges, are you also taking (at least) 4 boards at the same time?   For example, in the picture where you are cutting the last wedge off and your blade is lined up with the ray/split, if you raised your blade one board thickness, you could cut a sizable wedge off, then be positioned to lower the band without having to move the log, and take the second cut perfectly on your ray line, and if you lowered the saw another board thickness, you could cut a 2nd board too.  Both would have great figure on at least one side and overall, you would be handing the wedges less, and the wedges would be smaller too.   Maybe you are doing this, but I didn't catch it if you are.   

Todd
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on January 29, 2018, 01:03:23 PM
Todd,

That is a good option but I didn't do it that way because I didn't think of it, but I will try that because it is particularly advantageous for heavier boards due to less weight handling as you point out. What I did was cut the almost-halves into wedges and put the freshly cut wedge face down and cut off the bottom and keep doing so until the fleck diminishes. When there is no more fleck on either face I cut the wedge in half exposing more fleck (the boards are getting pretty narrow now) and keep cutting. I will try your suggestion next. Thanks.
 
The beuaty of cutting the almost-halves into bulky wedges is that it opens up RRQS to manual mill owners (like me) who don't have hydraulics to deftly rotate/counter rotate/clamp and reduces the weight to be lifted.
Bob


Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: SawyerTed on January 29, 2018, 06:46:20 PM
I don't even have a sawmill yet but am eager to RRQS some of the oak I have ready to mill.

Now for the rookie/dumb question regarding the medullary rays.  They are obviously 3 dimensional rays sort of like spokes of a bicycle wheel but run the length of the log more or less.

What does planing do to the ray flecks?  Can they be planed away?  Or once the board is cut with the faces  perpendicular to the rings and the rays exposed  planing will continue to expose rays as long as planing is parallel to the exposed face of the board?

Please humor the newbie.....
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on January 29, 2018, 08:02:31 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on January 29, 2018, 10:45:25 PM
Sawyer Ted,
You are about 2 hours from me. When I have another oak to QS you can come observe if you like.
Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 29, 2018, 11:19:05 PM
KeLOGg, you show the little L brackets clamped the the square tubing which is very close to how the two plane clamp is positioned for rolling.  So if those two L brackets could slide forward, the log back would rotate against the upright backstops and give you the rolling effect.  If you could get the clamps to move inboard in small jogs, and hold them steady, you could QS the slices in succession, much like using hydraulics. Here is an illustration of what I mean.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1170.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1517286230)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on January 30, 2018, 07:06:13 AM
How would I get them to move in unison and lock w/o hydraulics? As it is it doesn't take much effort to just to re-clamp. Everything about a manual mill has built-in slowness so I doubt I will change it but if you have a suggestion I am all ears.
Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 30, 2018, 08:05:53 AM
You only would need one clamp, positioned in the middle.  Years ago I build a cheap winch powered shuttle clamp for my LT15 that work very well.  A small winch 1500 lb HF acted as a windlass and slid a clamp shuttle backward and forward on a bar.  Later I added a mechanism to raise and lower the clamp.  If you build this, you will never have to use manual clamps again.   

http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,53476.0.html

There are other pics and descriptions in the thread of how I turned my manaul into a near hydraulic. 


Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: SawyerTed on January 30, 2018, 08:06:36 AM
Sawyer Ted,
You are about 2 hours from me. When I have another oak to QS you can come observe if you like.
Bob

Bob, I'd like to do this.

Ted
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: tburch on January 30, 2018, 11:40:05 AM
Like Bob, I too have a Cooks, but his is manual and mine is hydraulic.   And even then, my backstops are on the opposite side of his!  Totally wonkers. 

The Woodmizer has a definite advantage using this log rolling method.   The backstops have roller bearings on top and they travel vertically.  So, not only will the log have less friction when rolling it, with their vertical-only travel, the log is unlikely to shift end-to-end when they are moved. 

The Cooks (manual and hydraulic) have backstops that are square tubes, with angled tops, and they move in a radial fashion against the side of the log (envision a windshield wiper). If the log is touching the backstops when the backstops are raised or lowered, the log WILL shift.  Therefore, there's not that wide a gap between the log handling required between a manual Cooks and hydraulic Cooks when rolling a log to execute this technique.  Lots of manual handling still needed (at least for me).  BUT, still worth it to get max figure.   

Bob, I will borrow your ideas for your aids!   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on January 30, 2018, 08:58:39 PM
Yellowhammer, I see in that link that you have the winch/cable actuating your claw turner.  Only at the end of the post do I see your "shuttle clamps" on a pallet with a sketch showing an idea, but I don't see a pic of the actual execution?  Do you have a pic of that?  The way you have it sketched, It' s the Winch Drum I have a hard time imagining.  Is there a cable that turns the winch drum that runs back to the operator position?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on January 30, 2018, 09:09:03 PM
On another note... On my LT15 as most of you know, the throat opening is 24"-24.5".  I've got nice straight white oak logs that are 30" on the small end.  Gun barreling will take them down some, but the question is how to get those 4 center boards out and get my two almost half logs?  I mean, I guess I'll just have to gun barrel them and see if I can get the first log half off.  If so, then I can get that off the mill, flip what's left and take the other almost log half, then split the remaining thick flitch in half down the pith.  Then mill the remaining pith off each, then I'll have two thick boards to resaw that should be me two sets of book match quarter sawn.

The problem comes in if the log is still too wide to get the first almost log half cut off.  Then maybe I'd have to make my gun barrel smaller, thus losing good wood/board width?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on January 30, 2018, 10:11:47 PM
You would just have to take more flatsawn boards off the outside faces while gun-barrelling to get the cant to the size that will fit through the blade guides. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 30, 2018, 11:01:25 PM
Yes, you have to start playing games with it.  If you take equal amounts of flatsawn boards off each side of a centered pith, then you will have narrowed the QS boards on each side. 

However, since pith is rarely centered, and there is usually one face worse than the other, I like to intentionally "off center" saw the pith, where the lower value side gets turned into flatsawn wood, and the high value side remains untouched so it will still make wide QS boards.  This is possible to execute because the pith doesn't have to be centered, it only has to be aligned so you are sawing aligned with its axis.  Once you've taken off enough low value wood for the cant to fit through the guides, split it and sawn as normal.

This is the same technique used when QSing an off center pith log, which is a gift when quarter sawing.

I have also sawn very large logs into thirds, and QS each third, instead of halves.  Sometimes it easy to get lost doing that. 

 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on January 30, 2018, 11:13:50 PM
Yellowhammers are fastidious.  ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 30, 2018, 11:30:24 PM
Yellowhammer, I see in that link that you have the winch/cable actuating your claw turner.  Only at the end of the post do I see your "shuttle clamps" on a pallet with a sketch showing an idea, but I don't see a pic of the actual execution?  Do you have a pic of that?  The way you have it sketched, It' s the Winch Drum I have a hard time imagining.  Is there a cable that turns the winch drum that runs back to the operator position?

I have some pics in my gallery.  Here is a better picture.

(http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/3758/2_Plane_Clamp_LT-15.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1318396343)

The whole device consists of a square crossbar member with two steel end plates welded so that it will fit and bolt to the inside rails of the mill.  Completely self contained.  On one endplate, under the crossbar, a pulley is welded (left bottom side of crossbar in picture).  On the other endplate, under the crossbar, a small winch is attached (right underside of crossbar in picture and the empty winch drum is barely visible).  The winch cable is removed from the winch, shortened, and threaded through the winch drum by drilling a hole in the arbor.  Then one end of the cable goes from the winch around the pulley and attaches to one side of the shuttle.  The other end of the cable from the winch arbor attaches to the other side of the shuttle and the loop of cable is tensioned.  Since the cable passes through the winch drum, when the winch is operated in one direction it will pull the shuttle one direction.  When the winch is reversed it will pull the shuttle in the other direction.  Everything is mounted to the one crossbar so it can be easily removed with some bolts that attaches the endplates to the mill frame. 
I got the idea for this by watching the shuttle on a chain drive garage door opener.  Motor turns one way, shuttle moves that way, motor turns the other, shuttle reverses.  As a matter of fact, instead of using a cable I wanted to use garage door opener chain, with a split gear welded on the winch drum, I just never got around to it because the cable worlked just fine. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 30, 2018, 11:40:23 PM
Yellowhammers are fastidious.  ;D
DanG right.  I guess we are two peas in a pod.   
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on January 31, 2018, 07:02:24 AM
I didn't think that Yellowhammers and Goats were compatible.  Another thing, Goats ain't fastidious.  (Note to Self:  Fastidious is a pretty big word for a goat to be using on his own.  Maybe he is a Coached Goat). 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on January 31, 2018, 07:01:37 PM
You do know that there is this thing called Google now right?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on January 31, 2018, 08:01:17 PM
Google for goats.
 ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on January 31, 2018, 08:52:00 PM
I looked it up.
GOAT is short for "Greatest Of All Time".  It must be true, I saw it on the Internet.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: POSTON WIDEHEAD on January 31, 2018, 09:00:03 PM
I looked it up.
GOAT is short for "Greatest Of All Time".  It must be true, I saw it on the Internet.

You are now on my Christmas list.  ;D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kelLOGg on February 07, 2018, 05:51:18 AM
YH,
Thanks for that link on the LT15 conversion. I just got around to reading it. You essentially built your own hydraulic mill. I don't use my mill much as you so I doubt I will go to the extent you did. Thanks again.
Bob
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on February 07, 2018, 08:20:00 AM
I reverse rolled quartersawed a white oak log yesterday.  Still getting the hang of it.  One question for YH and others more proficient with this technique.  Sometimes my boards are wider at one end than the other.  Do you use the toeboards to level the log after each major turn?  Because of taper in the log, the gun barrelling does not leave each of the faces the same width all the way from the large end to the small end.

 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14370/IMG_2243.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1518009557)
 

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Sixacresand on February 07, 2018, 10:37:21 AM
I loaded a 24" post oak on the mill last week and talked myself out of QS it.  lots of edging work,  The sap wood milled great,. In the heart had diving blade (brand new 4 degree) until I got a narrow cant.  Excessive sawdust left in the kerf.  Is it the nature of post oak or lack of hardwood milling experience?  :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 07, 2018, 10:24:29 PM
I use the toebards a lot, and some taper is very common, however, I do try to find a least one good side with a relatively straight, non tapered face if possible to be the first or best reference face for turning.  Many times I won't use the toeboard to adjust the log, I will just use the clamp to squeeze and go up with it, pinning it against the backstops, lifting at will.  One smaller, very straight logs, I will forgo half of the gunbarreling, and only work the four major faces and leave the other 4 facets with bark on.  Saves a half of work gun barreling, and I have the edge everything anyway, so a little bark on the board isn't a problem.   

4° bands will leave a lot of packed sawdust in white oak.  Typically, I will turn my lube down some with them to keep it dusty, not like wet flour. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on February 08, 2018, 07:05:37 AM
What yellow said...

Yes, taper is a common challenge and you'll also have tapered edges, so an edger or more time on the mill is part of the game. (an acceptable trade-off to me in order to have rays on each board). On that note, I don't know what I'd ever do without my edger these days...it's ABSOLUTELY a joy to use, in comparison...for me. I have a Baker with a diesel on it, which is probably going later in the year as I'm likely converting to all electric--the mill, edger, etc. since I don't go portable.

Yellow is also spot-on with 4°: they leave PILES on dust behind. I actually go the other direction though and load-up with lube to help the cut not seem like it was chewed through, rather than sawn. I was sawing some HUGE logs the other day that were frozen. Switched from carbide to 4° due to hitting metal and the cut-quality was VASTLY different. (GRRRR  :-[) The carbide is my choice for almost everything now, except metal. Hitting metal with those pains me, but when dealing with big, high-value material, it's worth it.

Part of our post-process is to very diligently sweep as much dust off the stickered lumber (both sides) as possible. I often use a big leaf blower and post-dust the piles too, after it's dried a bit. In warmer weather and/or troublesome materials, it can make the difference between staining and not. It's a laborious, yet necessary part of our process. And yes, those 4° blades make it twice as hard.  :-\

TIP: I added a time-clock to my ops for my kids. They now clock-in and get paid weekly for actual WORK at the mill. My 11 year old daughter has become a rock star and end-sealer and sweeping boards!  8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 07, 2018, 12:59:58 AM
Today I ran into a relatively common situation, trying to RRQS logs where even the halves are too big for the mill to manipulate well.  For my LT40, this means logs with a large diameter of about 45 inches or better.  Since I had my camera ready, I took some photos. Basically, the strategy is to Reverse the Reverse Roll, i.e. do the normal QS techniques in somewhat reverse order.  Don't gun barrel, simply RRQS with the bark until the cant gets manageable, then trim the bark.

So here we are, with a decent mid forty inch diameter tapered white oak log.  So first break out the 52" chainsaw and split it down the center line.  Using my best @customsawyer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=1861) chainsaw technique, I split it in half and only missed the center on the far end by an inch or so.  

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1777.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344183)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1791.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344194)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1798.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344209)
 

So now the problem is that the halves are so big, my two plane clamp struggles with them, as wall as my claw.  In addition, I'm out of vertical travel on the mill head and won't clear the log.  I can't begin to manipulate the halves for classic gun barreling. So anyway I can, get the half set up so that the corner is diagonal out toward the idler wheel, which gives me maximum clearance.  Notice the log half is much higher than the head travel, but no problem.  I get the half situated, then measure the distance from the pith to the bed, and raise the toeboards to get the pith level.  


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1806.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344212)
 

Then I take a cut at pretty much max head height take off a decent sized hunk which I will RRQS later.  This now gives me a little clearance to better manipulate the half.  Notice the bark is still on the half, it doesn't matter as long as the pith is level.  

Then I rotate the half just a smudge and line up on a ray and take classic RRQS cuts.  


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1820.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344310)




(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1812.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344248)
 
Bullseye, and I keep dropping and taking boards without moving anything.  This lets me trim the cant down to size, but every trim board has good fleck.  Of course it will have bark in one edge, but the point is high fleck QS wood is coming off from the first cuts.  I keep dropping until I get to the pith, and roll the much smaller cant to the other side and repeat the process.  
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1808.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344289)
 
This photo clearly shows how I've rotated the piece and am taking cuts right along the radial cracks, scoring wide QS boards every pass.  
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1819.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344313)
 

Once the cant gets manageable I skin the bark off, wedge trim the pith off and continue to saw it like normal RRQS.  

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1823.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528344326)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: fishpharmer on June 07, 2018, 01:59:39 AM
Tiger oak!  8)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on June 07, 2018, 03:49:15 AM
Sweet!! This is a nice primer for me since I have a white oak about the exact same size that I need to tackle today or tomorrow.
I did note that you started out with a "BS" log! (see blue paint on end!)  ;D :D :D
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: customsawyer on June 07, 2018, 05:42:54 AM
I think BS stands for big sucker. :D
Good job on the chainsawing. I only hit it perfect when Danny is watching. He adds lots of pressure. Being off by a inch or two isn't the end of the world as you would normally trim out the pith anyway.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Peter Drouin on June 07, 2018, 05:58:41 AM
Big logs make wide wood. What is the average size lumber you have?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: tburch on June 07, 2018, 03:03:57 PM
@YellowHammer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) I like where you left the bark on initially.  Makes handling a big log much less of a chore.   Also, some time ago, I realized that every board I cut didn't have to have parallel edges throughout it's length.   I've done several fine furniture projects with wedge shaped boards.  

How wide is that board your left hand is on?  

In your first picture, I see, at the back left in your photo, under the shed, what looks to be big pallets or a board stack with tall stickers.  What is that?  My first thought was that they are pallets, queued up, for the next batch of sawn boards you cut to sticker on.  (which would be a great idea)

Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: teakwood on June 07, 2018, 05:24:37 PM
One of the most interesting threads on the FF, i have learned so much from it. Thanks for sharing 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on June 07, 2018, 10:31:23 PM
I only hit it perfect when Danny is watching.
I must be good luck.  I can be hired to watch ;D.  Better yet, I will trade out some watching for some of your walnut logs cut_tree.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 07, 2018, 10:48:25 PM
The bigger logs have been yielding true non pith full S4S boards 12 inch to 18 inch wide.  Most customers have never seen QS boards this wide.  The thing is, these super wide QS boards stay flat and true whereas a flatsawn board this wide would have cup.  

The board in the picture is probably a 15 inch wide, maybe, hard to tell.  My hand is about 7-8 inches wide in that picture.  I've also got some real wide, 20 inch QS boards from the log I milled up the day before.  They will be a shade narrower when I edge them.  

The nice thing about this technique is it allows me to get the widest boards possible because it's not a step by step process, it's flexible enough to get the big boards when they present themselves.  The average width of my QS boards has gone up vs conventional techniques.  I don't know what the average width is, but we have a top rack full of none less than 12 inch. I try to not get narrower than 4 inches. 

One of the most important things about this technique, as demonstrated on this big log, is I never had to handle conventional quarters manually, and I never had to lay my hands on the log half from start to finish.  Once it's on the mill, it's all hydraulics, and old school hydraulics at that. 

Also, some may remember how I said I didn't like to Anchorseal logs when I knew I would QS them.  This log is a prime example.  The radial splits are a blueprint on where to cut.  Only after the boards are deadstacked, do I pack saw the boards to 8 feet long and Anchorseal.  

You are correct Tburch, those are pallets staged for use.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: caveman on June 07, 2018, 11:07:42 PM
Robert, those are beautiful quarter sawn boards. Question, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  

One more question.  This is for any who do a lot of quarter sawing.  What is the minimum diameter log that you typically quarter saw?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on June 08, 2018, 05:34:27 AM
Question, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  


I'm guessing he will say, "Yes". My process is the same--we've tried stickering right off the mill, but even with 3 people on that end, can't keep up. For me, I like the zen of stacking and stickering...gives me a chance to better scrutinize and/or mark boards.

Yellow, having 20" quarter sawn white oak, is like gold...money in the bank. (as you know). I believe anything over 12" is a rarity. Check out quartersawnoak.com. For high-fleck boards, the price is $4.50/bf for under 8", but $27.20 for 16'+!! :o Martha wants a new pair of shoes. :D

So, I wonder what kinda multiplier my curly, wide quarter sawn should demand. (it's 16" or so)  ;D


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/46676/IMG_7593.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1509280503)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on June 08, 2018, 10:39:15 AM
Question, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  




Yellow, having 20" quarter sawn white oak, is like gold...money in the bank. (as you know). I believe anything over 12" is a rarity. Check out quartersawnoak.com. For high-fleck boards, the price is $4.50/bf for under 8", but $27.20 for 16'+!! :o Martha wants a new pair of shoes. :D

So, I wonder what kinda multiplier my curly, wide quarter sawn should demand. (it's 16" or so)  ;D




And I've sold all of the 16+ inchers that we've milled for that price too!

You can't see much ray fleck due to the photo angle but here is a 20" QSWO board.  The biggest challenge with the extremely large logs is that they usually have some defects in them (spalted sapwood, bugs, etc), because few people want to remove a 50"+ oak tree unless they have to.



(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13296/20_inch_qswo.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528468416)




That looks like some gorgeous QSWO!

For 16" wide, curly QSWO that is kiln dried I'd think that you could net $20. bd ft or more for 5/4.  You have to be prepared to sit on it for a while though until the right customer comes along.  Best to mill a little thicker than normal too.





Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on June 08, 2018, 09:12:32 PM
Seems like it would sell better as 9/4?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: PA_Walnut on June 08, 2018, 09:25:31 PM
For 16" wide, curly QSWO that is kiln dried I'd think that you could net $20. bd ft or more for 5/4.  You have to be prepared to sit on it for a while though until the right customer comes along.  Best to mill a little thicker than normal too.


I try to saw anything over 12-14" as 5/4. However, often bend the rules for qsawn since its stable.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: scsmith42 on June 08, 2018, 10:14:10 PM
Seems like it would sell better as 9/4?
It might but the drying time is so much longer.  I have not had any problems selling it as 5/4.  Usually folks making either tables, cabinets, or using it for a single panel in a frame and panel door.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 08, 2018, 10:42:31 PM
Robert, those are beautiful quarter sawn boards. Question, do you dead stack off of the mill, cut and anchor seal and then sticker stack them?  

One more question.  This is for any who do a lot of quarter sawing.  What is the minimum diameter log that you typically quarter saw?
I saw alone most times, and deadstack everything.  With the drag back, roller table and a pallet, I just whittle until the log is gone and I don't want to stop to sticker.  With QS wood, I don't want to lose my rhythm and lose the fleck.   Much like the video 123Maxbars made, at 15:00 minutes or so, I'm pulling the boards back pretty constantly as Customsawyer is doing.    
EPIC SAWMILL WEEKEND IN GEORGIA, WOOD-MIZER LT70 SAWING PINE AND SYCAMORE - YouTube (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C1CwEzvdOps)

Also, I don't pre buck long logs that I QS so most every log will be longer than my pallet.  Even though I get a lot of very good logs, such as what made this stack of QS white oak, there are inevitable boards that will have knots.  

Since our standard board length is 8 feet, I don't want to just pack saw this stack and get what I get, as it randomly came off the saw, I want to quickly inspect each board so that the best 8 foot section gets put on the pallet, even if it means I have to spin some boards around.  Then when I pack saw them after sticking, I have an entire pallet of high value, dead clean, no knot, full length 8 footers and pallet of lesser quality, lower value short boards that may have a knot or other defect in them that I can clean up if I have to.  

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/IMG_1828.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528510748)


A 2 foot diameter log is about the smallest I'd quartersaw.



Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: caveman on June 09, 2018, 07:38:55 AM
Thank you for your thorough explanation.  John and I have quite a few live oak logs to saw if we ever get enough space to stack more wood.  Some may be candidates for quarter sawing but with a manual mill, that becomes a laborious endeavor.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boonesyard on February 12, 2019, 02:47:36 PM
I just read this entire thread, watched all the videos, studied all the pics. WOW, did I learn a lot!! I've got a load of white oak coming in and a fair amount of red and white oak we'll be cutting this year. I cannot wait to try this method of QSing on some of the nicer logs. Thanks YH for your all the wonderful info, what a forum.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on February 13, 2019, 12:37:13 AM
Glad to help.  You might practice on some lower value logs before you start whittling on the high dollar ones.  The method works great. I was just dressing some RRQS ambrosia 8/4 sycamore this afternoon and it looked so nice I snapped a picture.  Let me know if we can help or answer questions.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21488/B96CEC76-1403-48BD-93C9-DD2CBA036102~0.jpeg?easyrotate_cache=1550036191)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boardmaker on February 13, 2019, 09:48:53 AM
YH,

That Sycamore looks awesome. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boonesyard on February 14, 2019, 08:08:26 AM
Has anyone tried this on elm?.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: curved-wood on February 14, 2019, 11:05:13 AM
Is your elm has special wood grain when cut quater saw ? The elm around here (Québec ) has a beautifull grain when flat saw. Very prone to twisting specially those big one that grow in the open field; the grain is twisted like a steel cable, I guess it help for wind resistance.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: boonesyard on February 14, 2019, 11:45:21 AM
I've never QS elm, thinking about it now would be a waste of time. None of it is very clear and it is really nice looking in flat sawn slabs.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on February 14, 2019, 12:19:33 PM
My experience with quarter sawing elm is limited to the middle cuts when slabbing. In my way of thinking, the flat sawn slabs look much nicer and have more character. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: kennymcd on April 24, 2019, 01:25:46 PM
As the most recent newbie to FF, this is my very first input. I just went through this entire thread, watched every video and went through every pic. What I learned about quarter sawn techniques is of huge value. Thanks. But, I do have a challenge that I hope you can steer me in the right direction. I have a sawmill supplier of Sipo Utile in Cameroon, Africa. These logs start at 30 inches and go to 60 inches. I need them only quarter sawn in 12/4 and 8/4 thicknesses. I have sent my guys at the mill over there hand drawn drawings, web pics and even a Frank Miller basic video of quarter sawing. Between the French / English translation and their antique methods of sawing, I am not getting through to them. Does anyone know of a "quarter sawing 101" either video of manual - or even course material somewhere that I can send them to start them off in the right direction? They do have both vertical and horizontal band saws - and lots of manual labor. They seem to be real experienced, and confident - but only in what they know. Please help if you can.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55360/Man_and_Huge_Log~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1556126690)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on April 24, 2019, 01:48:40 PM
Kenny welcome to the forum.  it is nice to have friends around the world.  I am not sure of a nice concise video, but someone here will have some info.  Thanks for posting you question.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WV Sawmiller on June 23, 2019, 08:34:44 PM
  I have read and re-read this thread a number of times meaning to try it sometime. Well I have a customer on my backlog with some big red oak and he only wants quartersawn lumber so I ran a test case today using a 12' stock RO log I had. It was really a bit small for quarter sawing at 19" SED and it has been down nearly 2 years with very punky sapwood. The pith was a little off center to boot. I made a shallow cut on all 4 sides then cut a 7-1/4" cant off the top, I cut 4- 4/4 boards out of the middle leaving a 5-1/4" cant on the bottom. My camera battery was dead so I stopped sawing, put the battery on charge and went and mowed my grass while topping up the battery. After finishing mowing the yard (about an hour) I had enough battery juice to take a few pictures and resumed sawing.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1394.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1561335817)
 One cant ready to saw, 4 center cuts to be edged and another cant on the arms.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1395.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1561335879)
 I'm getting some nice fleck but not real wide boards.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1397.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1561335951)
 I sawed the first cant and edged the center boards then put this cant on the mill. When I looked at my sharpie lines I realized I had the cant backwards/upside down.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1398.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1561336039)
 I reversed it and got my blade about parallel to my sharpie marks (may not can see them here)


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/38064/IMG_1399.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1561336096)
 I cut off a pie shape and found the fleck


 When finished I probably had wasted way more than I should. My yield was only 96 bf and that included saving boards down to 3" wide but they were full of fleck. I found edging was harder because I did not have any true 90 degree cuts to stand the flitches vertical. Also I see the throat depth on my LT35 can be a limiting factor on how wide a cant I can cut and resulting boards I will get.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Den-Den on June 23, 2019, 09:14:19 PM
As the most recent newbie to FF, this is my very first input. I just went through this entire thread, watched every video and went through every pic. What I learned about quarter sawn techniques is of huge value. Thanks. But, I do have a challenge that I hope you can steer me in the right direction. I have a sawmill supplier of Sipo Utile in Cameroon, Africa. These logs start at 30 inches and go to 60 inches. I need them only quarter sawn in 12/4 and 8/4 thicknesses. I have sent my guys at the mill over there hand drawn drawings, web pics and even a Frank Miller basic video of quarter sawing. Between the French / English translation and their antique methods of sawing, I am not getting through to them. Does anyone know of a "quarter sawing 101" either video of manual - or even course material somewhere that I can send them to start them off in the right direction? They do have both vertical and horizontal band saws - and lots of manual labor. They seem to be real experienced, and confident - but only in what they know. Please help if you can.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/55360/Man_and_Huge_Log~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1556126690)
 

If these guys are experienced and confident, you are likely taking the wrong approach when telling them HOW to quartersaw.  Would be better to listen to WHY they don't ($$$) and tell them WHY they should ($$$).
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WV Sawmiller on June 23, 2019, 09:36:52 PM
Kennymcd,

  Are you just buying the lumber or supplying any equipment and training? If you are just buying the lumber I'd quote a price for the quartersawn lumber then reject anything that does not make the grade. Do you have a rep there inspecting the lumber before it is loaded and shipped? I'd suggest that if you are not going over yourself.

  What kind of equipment are they using (Big commercial bandmills or something similar to ours with 26-36 inch cuts). I saw some pretty decent lumber made by free-hand sawing with chainsaws over there. I was in Doaula and our office overlooked the port. I remember huge stacks of logs staged there to ship and remember some where one log completely filled the truck bed. We visited the CAR and on our last day we went to a French run sawmill there. They used a big band mill - bands looked to be at least 12" wide. Are they sawing in Douala. Yaounde, or other locations? Good luck. I sure miss being over there.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 23, 2019, 10:41:35 PM
WV,
One of the trade off when QSawing is the number of center cut boards that are taken because that detracts from the overall thickness of the remaining cant, which dictates the width of any resulting QS boards.  It’s important to take the pith out, but for a log that size, I would probably limit to 2 center cut boards, and use the extra inches for the cant thickness. This would be the same in any QS technique, as the remaining cant was only 5 1/4” thick, whether it was RR or conventionally split into quarters.  The RR technique can take them at the hypotenuse angle so may yield a couple 6” wide, but they are still not going to be real wide.

The best QS candidate for smaller logs is a very off center pith so that the one side will yield wide boards, although the other side will yield narrower.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WV Sawmiller on June 24, 2019, 07:24:19 AM
YH,

   Thanks for the advice. I will keep that in mind. Earlier you had posted it was normally not worth the effort to saw less than 24" diameter logs into quartersawn and this  experiment verifies that IMHO. I just needed to practice on my logs and that was about as big as I had to work with. It showed the procedure works fine and I now have a better understanding and more confidence about the clamping. Even on pretty small whittled down cants the clamps held.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: MAF143 on June 26, 2019, 10:11:51 PM
I have read this thread a while back and have been wanting to try it.  

A few weeks ago we had a large Pin Oak blow down over by the old horse stables and it just missed the corner of the building.  It is 4' dbh but was hollow and snapped off.  It's a very limby tree but I was able to get a couple of 5' sections of trunk about 15" diameter out of it to play with on the mill.  I was able to try the reverse roll method on it and got some interesting looking boards.  I know the Pin Oak isn't like the White Oak, but for my first experiment I didn't want to jump in with both feet.

Overall I viewed this as a successful experiment and am looking forward to trying some larger Red and White Oak later when I get a chance.  Our mill is totally manual so I don't think I want to get too ambitious.  I did get a nice slab and I think it will end up as a live edge coffee table with live edge legs if I can get it dried successfully.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/quarter_pin_1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561600735)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/quarter_pin_2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561600861)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/quarter_pin_3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561600862)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 26, 2019, 10:48:21 PM
You got some very nice looking boards, some with full fleck, on difficult logs that had lots of grain change.  This is why the RRQS method is superior to conventional blind quartersawing.  There are several boards in the pictures where the grain slope changed drastically, enough to go from partial fleck, to full width fleck, back to partial fleck, all on the same board.  Very good technique.  When you can get the full fleck in the middle of the board and partial fleck on either end, it means you bulls eyed the rays.  If using the conventional techniques that board could have been a miss with only slight fleck in the center with no fleck on the ends.

If you want to get adventurous, when you have logs with such drastic slope and fleck changes, you can make slight toe board adjustments, changing the axial angle of the cant, without adjusting anything else, and take a very shallow skim cut, and actually drive the full fleck to where you want it on the board.  It’s a very cool technique, and we did it in one of the logs at the Sycamore Project this year.  I had a photo, can’t find it, but we changed the angle of the cant just a degree or two and went from minor fleck to brilliant fleck on a shallow “prospecting” or correction cut and used the new angle to saw out the rest of the cant.

Great work on your first try.    
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: MAF143 on June 29, 2019, 09:46:39 AM
I had some time last evening to toss the second Pin Oak log on the mill.  This one is about 5' long and still only 16" diameter.  This one was a little trickier to find the pith since both ends were crotchy, the bottom end with 1 large limb and the top kind of splitting 3 ways.  I rolled it around and finally cut it on my best guess to open it up.

I got lucky, I found some good grain and was able to stay with it for the most part.  This was very fun to be able to open up a log that was destined for firewood and get some cool looking boards out of it.  Now to get it dried and figure out what to do with it...  These are kinda small boards and I'll have to figure out how to show them off in some crafty projects.  I didn't make a large slab from this log.  I was more experimenting with thinner slices to see how to stay with the grain.

Thanks to YH and the rest of you here that share all this knowledge so the rest of us can learn some useful skills and techniques.  I'm an eager rookie... LOL

Here are some pix of the second log.  I threw these on the truck and drove over to a woodworking buddy's house to show them off.  I'm amazed that I was able to pull this off...


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin7.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815684)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin6.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815672)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin5.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815668)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin4.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815651)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin3.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815643)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815623)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/48156/q_pin2.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1561815616)
 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 29, 2019, 11:31:11 PM
You got some full width fleck on this one.  Good job.  RRQS is actually fun, because it’s not a bling sawing technique, but actually lets you stay in control.
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Brad_bb on June 29, 2019, 11:43:50 PM
@YellowHammer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488)  What do you mean by "bling"?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 29, 2019, 11:50:51 PM
Autocorrect got me.  I meant “not a blind” sawing technique.  
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on June 30, 2019, 07:11:31 AM
I like "bling" better. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Bruno of NH on June 30, 2019, 07:21:25 AM
Bling is good when it turns to ching in your pocket 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on June 30, 2019, 07:34:07 AM
See?  I told you that bling was better.  Bruno, now you have the capability to make lots of bling ;D. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on June 30, 2019, 10:10:53 AM
so a new term for the dictionary!?  "bling sawing: when RRQS and you get a lot of fleck"
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Southside on June 30, 2019, 11:11:48 AM
I was thinking the same thing - it IS a bling technique. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 30, 2019, 01:49:58 PM
so a new term for the dictionary!?  "bling sawing: when RRQS and you get a lot of fleck"

I like it. 8) I stand re-corrected on my original auto correct.  :D  

RRQS, the "Bling" Technique.

Takes firewood and turns it into bling.

However, we need to get an Administrator to add RRQS to the dictionary also. @WDH (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370) 
do you know of any? :D You know I'm always good for providing a steak dinner for trade. :D :D :D    I'm not above food bribery!
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on June 30, 2019, 07:52:25 PM
OK, you came up with the technique so you write the definition and I will add it to the Dictionary. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on June 30, 2019, 09:22:27 PM
we should prob add the phonetic description north and south.  bling, and ba ling.   :) :) :).  sadly we have no accent in Ks.  @WDH (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=4370)   @YellowHammer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488)   @Southside (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297)    @Magicman (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=10011)    ;)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 30, 2019, 10:44:48 PM
In Alabamian, it’s pronouned, “blang”.  :D

As in: “Don’t mah new truck have a lot of blang on er?  I had’ta paid extry fer it.”

Accent? What Accent?  It’s Everybody else what talks funny.  

Now I got to think about a definition.  Where did I put those Vitamin B pills....

Hey Alexa, what is..?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on June 30, 2019, 10:57:32 PM
well, @YellowHammer (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=11488) the elder, in Latin , i believe it is "blingus maximus"  or in Alablatin  "blangus maximus".  or in the deep south "ba lingus maximus"
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: YellowHammer on June 30, 2019, 11:02:31 PM
Yeah, them fellers down south of me have a tendency to drawl.  Caint hardly understand them. 
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Southside on June 30, 2019, 11:15:15 PM
It's not just south of you. I was in West Virginia years back with my girlfriend now wife and we went to eat at Shoneys. I ordered a Mtn Dew and the girl asked me if I "wanted any ICE with that", well her drawl was so deep what I heard made me think "boy she is friendly, and in front of my girlfriend no less" the look on my face said it all. Cyrillie spoke up and said "Ice, you want Ice"? After the waitress left Cyrillie looked right at me and said she knew exactly what I was thinking... Oops.   ::)
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: doc henderson on June 30, 2019, 11:19:14 PM
@Southside (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=24297) , I have no doubt, despite having been made an honest man, that you continue to be a pain in the ICE.!!!  that is a compliment coming from me!   :D :D :D :D 8) 8) 8) :) :) :) smiley_beertoast
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: terrifictimbersllc on July 01, 2019, 04:36:44 AM
Caint hardly understand them.
Theyre ba-lingual
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: WDH on July 01, 2019, 07:41:23 AM
Ever since the Sycamore Project, Southside has been fixated on ash :).  Maybe its a Southern Thing that he has?
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: MAF143 on July 01, 2019, 08:03:25 AM
Started out about rolling, now it's all about ASH...  conversations tend to go there...  :laugh:   :-*
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Magicman on July 01, 2019, 08:08:12 AM
Ever since the Sycamore Project, Southside has been fixated on ash
Yup, now he is wanting Ash in his Mtn Dew.  :o
Title: Re: Reverse Roll Quarter Sawing
Post by: Darrel on July 01, 2019, 10:37:22 AM
When I left for church yesterday morning, this was a fine upstanding thread. But somehow the whole thing went south.  :laugh:

Maybe I'm starting to understand why the Britts put the "R" in "Arsh"
Helps avoid making an arsh out of yourself.   say_what