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General Forestry => Alternative methods and solutions => Topic started by: Dflick on June 25, 2017, 06:59:05 PM

Title: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: Dflick on June 25, 2017, 06:59:05 PM
I am going to be building a 20x24 timber frame on my property.  The problem is I cant get a concrete truck or a loaded dump truck (unless an excavator pulls it)  up my drive way.  I plan on pouring 9 footings with sono tube peers.  Do You guys think I can use Quickcrete (Sackcrete) in stead of mixing my own mix?
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: ljohnsaw on June 25, 2017, 09:23:34 PM
How many CU-FT (or fractions of a yard) per tube?  My neighbor had a few to do and was too cheap money consious to hire a pumper.  I offered up my little mixer.  He got a yard of sac-crete delivered as a pallet of 56 bags.  I could load two (60 lb) bags in my mixer if I angled it just right so it didn't slop out.  Took about an 2 hours with 3 of us working - hauling bags, mixing and hauling half-full 5 gallon buckets.  Turned out he needed another yard so the next weekend, we did it all over again!

If I were to do that for a big structure (his was just a deck), I would make sure it was high strength or add some Portland to each batch to make it high strength.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: Delawhere Jack on June 25, 2017, 09:25:05 PM
Not an expert, but Sackrete is used all the time for footer for decks and other projects. Check what the local codes are regarding compression strength required. It would be a good idea to rent or buy a small mixer. It takes a LOT of bags of Sackrete to fill even a small sonotube. A mixer will allow you to fill the tube quickly and insure a homogeneous footer.

Don't even think about putting the mix in the tubes dry and then adding water. That's fine for fence posts, but not for footer.

Oh, and welcome to the FF.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: ljohnsaw on June 25, 2017, 09:31:12 PM
Also, in my readings, I've found that concrete strength, besides the amount of Portland in it, is directly related to the aggregate size.  Bag mix is usually pea gravel.  I'd want 3/4" or larger for a foundation.  If you need a lot of material, you could always get an aggregate mix delivered (by your truck/trailer) and add Portland to it as you go.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: Delawhere Jack on June 25, 2017, 09:35:42 PM
https://www.quikrete.com/calculator/main.asp (https://www.quikrete.com/calculator/main.asp)

Appears to be 45 80# bags to make one yard of concrete..

(Check my math...)
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: ljohnsaw on June 25, 2017, 09:58:33 PM
My recollection is the 60# bags are 1/2 cu-ft and the 80# are 2/3 cu-ft.  So, you would need 40.5 80# bags to the yard.  My computer (Widows 10) didn't think your link was safe so I didn't go there.  I mis-spoke earlier - you need 54 60# bags to the yard.  If the per-yard price is the same, get 60# bags - your back will thank you! ;)
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: Dflick on June 25, 2017, 11:38:49 PM
Im not sure what the size of the footings and peers are going to be yet.  I am waiting on the plans right now. From what I've read it sounds like High strength Quikcrete is the product I may want to use it has the fiber in it.  Also I know to be careful with the amount of water I put in it.  On another not some one recommended using those eco blocks  that they use for big retaining walls.  They are pre cast concrete blocks 2'x2'x4'.  I just can't find any examples of them being used for home foundations anywhere.  Thanks for the info guys!
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: Don P on June 26, 2017, 07:06:49 AM
Actually piers fall under "engineering required" for residential construction. Prescriptive foundations (non engineered) are made with a continuous perimeter footing and foundation walls to form a braced structure that can resist lateral (horizontal) loads from wind or seismic. Piers depend on the soil to resist those loads and it depends on soil type, embedment depth, pier diameter, ect. The eco block is probably less likely to topple than a pier. On our house and a number of others I've worked on we've pulled the trucks in with dozers, used pumpers, bobcats, tractors, even 4x4's and drums to bring in the concrete. You can site mix, I've found it isn't much more difficult to bring in sand, gravel and Portland and mix them there. If you are blessed with rock I've done rubble stone walls with rock and site mixed mortar and concrete, a 16" thick uncoursed wall. You can also do gravel footings and permanent wood foundations. This is all covered in chapter 4 of the IRC although AK has it's own set of rules and methods.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: Dflick on June 26, 2017, 12:40:09 PM
I am concerned with the type of concrete used to make the eco blocks.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: florida on June 27, 2017, 02:19:19 PM
You should be more concerned with bag mix you'll be making yourself. When we were pouring foundations for commercial buildings the engineers stood right there watching the mix and notating the added water. They also took a sample of every batch after any water was added. It's really hard to mix bag mix by the yard and keep it dry enough to make the required compressive strength.
Have you considered a pumper?  Around here a guy with a portable unit will cost you about $100.00 a truck.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: John Mc on June 27, 2017, 10:07:48 PM
I'm no concrete expert, but I do know that the footings for a timber frame are NOT something you want to skimp on. A timber frame has much higher point loads than a "stick built" building.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: Don P on June 27, 2017, 10:40:48 PM
I agree, I'd extend that to say the foundation is not something to skimp on. Take the time to research and design a good one. I don't know how many houses I've had to go back under and fix failing foundations on. It is tough, expensive and not particularly fun.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: mometal77 on July 04, 2017, 04:33:29 AM
Going to do the same but have the cement truck at the bottom of my 400 ft driveway and have him fill my 410D john deere backhoe bucket 1 yd at a time 10 yards 10 trips later.  I know a guy who does this for a living has a skid steer he rents for jobs loads and pours.  Cement vibros come in handy too you can find a used cheap one online.  Best to buy one vs rent one.  I never read any of the comments about water retention and diversion.  Seen a few places even one woman near a lake here the engineers said build that house at the bottom of the hill.  She didn't and the cost to a brand new cabin was 600,000 if i remember right. I was invited to the house warming party and that slab had cracks in it all over. Later on the rich lady had it tore down logs beams everything and rebuilt where she was first told to.  I have seen and heard a lot of stupid things.  Another was the owner of Amazon.  With that rock shaped cactus. They had shipped in or bill gates flooring to his house.  Lot of money out there i wish i had more of it. LOL....  Most gravel companies will pre mix your gravel so you can just throw it in your 1 yard mixer or what ever you have.  Portland cement at home depot i see went up in price... and if you have a salvage yard find painted rebar never use rusted rebar for a new slab... Good luck sounds like a lot of work... plus what i am not looking forward to is paying for truck time for the cement truck..... life i guess.  Reminds me i need to buy that red 2 wire heating cable for mine so i can keep a slab nice and warm during winter months.  I do not think i will have a hole in the ground to work on transmissions etc more work. 
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: woodmaker on July 14, 2017, 08:42:52 PM
I'm not sure if they are permitted where you are,but we have a local pre-cast company that pours one piece sonotubes ,(although these are actually square) with enlarged footings on the bottom. They have different sizes for heavier buildings.you just dig a hole to the correct depth,in the correct location,set them in,and backfill.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: newoodguy78 on July 14, 2017, 10:01:21 PM
X2 they work great
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: nativewolf on July 14, 2017, 10:07:43 PM
As seismically active as AK is I'm glad you are getting the engineering done on the building.  Question:  can you get a backhoe up to it?  And how far from the house site is the nearest road a mix truck can get?
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: Al_Smith on July 15, 2017, 05:07:55 AM
Just a thought for what it's worth .These old giant timber framed dairy barns,some still standing were just built on top of rocks buried in the ground .They didn't have a foundation and they are older than 100 years .
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: Raider Bill on July 17, 2017, 04:00:09 PM
I helped my friend Jimbo pour his cabin tubes about 8 years ago up in tennessee. We used bag mix. I forget how many bags I did that day but it was around 100 80 pounders. 
We pulled the mixer to each tube with a ATV, another ATV brought the bags. Filled up the tractor bucket with water from the hose back up the hill.



 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14445/IMG_0764.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500321407) 

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 (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/14445/IMG_0765.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1500321408)
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: snowstorm on September 18, 2017, 08:03:02 PM
Just buy precast tapered frost piers. Way easier than pouri ng your own.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: 47sawdust on September 21, 2017, 06:10:11 PM
Have you given any consideration to a pressure treated frost wall?That is a small building and it might be a possibility.If you do a search of rubble trench foundations you will see some options that might be of interest.
 Good luck.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: MbfVA on November 27, 2017, 03:01:24 AM
 If you're going to put in a basement, how do you waterproof the rubble stone foundation?   Or is a basement out of the question in that case?  We've got a lot of stone, folks.

By the way, the old barn thing sounds a little like a precursor or "variation" on Superior Wall. Think about it and see if you agree.  After all, Sup W sits on a simple #57 stone foundation, by their spec.  No other footing required.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: mometal77 on December 05, 2017, 03:20:55 PM
Refractory Reinforcing 1" 430 Stainless Steel Needles 10# going to use these the next time i pour a foundation.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: MbfVA on December 05, 2017, 03:54:16 PM
 Are you saying use refractory cement/concrete? Is there a particular reason why stainless steel is required rather than regular rebar or similar?  Web search shows it at about $3 per Lb.  Superior Wall, noted for its waterproof guarantee, uses minimum 5000 psi concrete. They say it usually works out over 6000. Does that qualify as refractory, or is there something special about refractory (normally designed for high temperatures I thought) in regard to waterproofing?

 Asthma signature says, always learning. I love that interpretation by Siri, not.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: LAZERDAN on December 06, 2017, 08:38:13 PM
Did anyone ever see these ?

https://www.ez-crete.com/products/ez-tube/#video
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: Don P on December 06, 2017, 09:52:32 PM
Seems to be light on engineering and approvals. When faced with an engineered product that is outside of the codebook prescriptions I look for an ESR, engineering services report number. I can then go look up the report and read it to see if the product will work for the intended purpose. Neither these nor sonotubes will provide the needed lateral bracing to support a building. They are intended to be used for support of lightweight elements like decks that are attached to the main braced structure.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: MbfVA on December 06, 2017, 10:04:36 PM
 Dumb video. Especially the wobbling tower at the end. However, I didn't see them representing it as being for anything other than decks or similar minor stuff.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: LAZERDAN on December 07, 2017, 07:24:42 AM
I agree.  I just never saw anything like these.
                                                                   Lazerdan
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: samandothers on December 07, 2017, 10:30:36 AM
Looks like a simple alternative to mixing! I think Id limit the use to smaller structures and not mi casa!

Don P, new avatar!  Noticed the picture then the name!
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: carhartted on December 30, 2017, 02:22:11 AM
Just did something similar in Willow in the fall. Poured 9 10 inch sonotubes with 32 inch big foots. Took 2 pallets of quickcrete.
Bought a used tow behind mixer and moved the concrete with buckets. Also put rebar towers in the sonotubes.

Will be putting up a timberframe in the spring and summer.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: CJennings on December 30, 2017, 09:17:03 AM
If you're going to put in a basement, how do you waterproof the rubble stone foundation?   Or is a basement out of the question in that case?  We've got a lot of stone, folks.

By the way, the old barn thing sounds a little like a precursor or "variation" on Superior Wall. Think about it and see if you agree.  After all, Sup W sits on a simple #57 stone foundation, by their spec.  No other footing required.

All the real old houses here have stone foundations and full basements (really built as cellars). Most of them were laid dry until they got to where they were exposed above ground. They stuffed mortar between the stones on the interior of the basement to help cut down on water and rodents coming in. A slab floor would really help too. But yes they will leak more water than a concrete foundation. This is where grading of the site and good drainage is key with these structures. Get the water running away from the building, use gutters to get rainwater away too. If you have a high water table where it's going to be you probably want to do something else.

I've lived in two houses with stone foundations. The first one was built on a hill and the cellar was bone dry in the heaviest downpours and wettest springs. The other was on a flat spot with no significant slope away from the house. Every time it rained water came in through the joints in the stones and there'd be a couple inches of water in the basement. The old boiler was set a foot off the floor when it was put in. It was an issue from day one in that house I'd guess.
Title: Re: Quickcrete foundation??? For a 20x24 timber frame
Post by: mometal77 on May 18, 2018, 06:04:05 AM
Neighbor used that fiber in his cement for his shop and it cracked all over. I had seen a formula for 5 ibs for every yard used in cement which is around 15 dollars.  Seen a u tube where cement trucks with this in it back up and pour no rebar needed and seen stress test videos.  I paid off my college back when i was 18/19 worked as an iron worker built a bridge and was a welder going through school.  Most rebar would sit for weeks/months come in rusted.  Even one engineer almost threw out construction on a rebar tube already put together over rust. I spent 3 days with a wire brush just to make them happy.  I learned a lot on that job.  Some new technology is great.  When i came across a man retiring from Alcoa selling his welding equipment i jumped on an old 300 amp DC machine i can even do carbon arc now and love the thing.