I've been wishing I had a small forwarding trailer for my compact tractor for years, but could never justify it. Over the past 6 months, I've had a couple of friends express interest in going on together on the purchase of one. We may round up another couple of people and make the leap. Our goal is not to get into logging in a big way. It's more to pick up the odd few sawlogs here and there, but which are too small a job to interest someone in the business full-time to come and get the wood out of the forest. We have friends with sawmills that we'd love to be able to take the wood to for special projects. Once we own it, I'm sure it will get used in some of our firewood harvesting operations as well. Most of us are in the rolling foothills of the Green Mountains in the Champlain Valley of VT, but it would also get used in some of the neighboring mountain towns.
We think we're looking for something with a load capacity of about 5000# - bigger than the 2000# ATV-style trailers, but small enough to still be a good match with a compact tractor or a small 4WD pickup (like a Toyota Tacoma / Ford Ranger).
I think we want self-contained hydraulics, since not all of us have a tractor we can plug the hydraulics in to.
I'm wondering about other features we should be considering:
Brakes: surge? electric?
Max log length: we'd love to be able to get 16' plus trim. Are we going to have to scale back to something smaller in this load capacity range? I suppose we could accept hauling 12' logs, but if we had to go shorter than that, we'd probably drop the idea.
How handy is it to be able to power the trailers wheels with the hydraulics?
Just a quick word of caution on going together with friends on a purchase, partnerships are ships that can sink. If you have multiple parties owning one asset, have it spelled out IN WRITING, and a SIGNED AGREEMENT who owns what. Inevitably the asset need to be liquidated, and one party will have to buy out the others. Speaking from expensive experience. My two pennies.
or just modify a flatbed trailer
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,98768.0/all.html
On road or strictly off road?
I've moved several logs with a single axle tilt bed trailer and a come along behind a minivan.
Then there is the DanG/Deadheader arch and winch solution.
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,17613.0.html (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,17613.0.html)
Also parabuckle over the trailer side.
Then there is this propane arch (which I haven't got to try out yet). Mine has a hand winch, but there are hydraulic models out there.
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Wouldn't fool with hydraulic drive trailer axles. If that mucky, best to stay home before breaking something. Though AG type flotation tires and tandem walking axles may make a lot of sense.
The problem with a hydraulic drive axle is uncoupling it for neutral.. And making it match the gearing of the power unit. The tire friction drive ones cover these issues but arent terribly effective.
I suggest a walking beam and limiting to 12ft logs. A load of 16s has a whole lot of tail drag unles the trailer is very tall. The first time you either get stuck or dump a load of 16s crossing a gully because the overhanging logs hung up on the ground youll understand why im saying this.
Quote from: Resonator on November 30, 2017, 02:00:32 PM
Just a quick word of caution on going together with friends on a purchase, partnerships are ships that can sink. If you have multiple parties owning one asset, have it spelled out IN WRITING, and a SIGNED AGREEMENT who owns what. Inevitably the asset need to be liquidated, and one party will have to buy out the others. Speaking from expensive experience. My two pennies.
Good advice. Several of those interested are people I'm already in a land partnership with (16 area families jointly own a wooded parcel which is conserved as a working forest). We formed an LLC and established some ground rules going in. It was well thought-out, but even so, we've learned a few things we might do differently next time.
Maybe we'll form an LLC for this as well. We haven't gotten that far yet, but there will definitely be some legal agreement to sign, which will include a way out (probably requiring that the share be offered back to those the group first and can't be sold to an outsider, as well as a way to force an irresponsible member out.
John, definitely get the hydraulic drive assist. Our big Farma trailer doesn't have it because we don't often use it in the woods (not the primary use) but from the little we have used it in the woods and on slopes, even behind a 120hp 4wd tractor, the drive is a must. We cleared a spot for a pump station this summer on our sugaring project, probably cut 10-15 cords of wood out of there. We were loading 2+ cords on, and it wouldn't make a hill we thought would be no problem, needed a push with the excavator each time.
Our trailer does have hydraulic brakes, but they're pretty much all on or all off.
Get the longest boom you can on whatever platform you get- it will never be long enough. I don't know how well the boom mounted winches work, but probably would be handy to have a second tractor (or prebunch) with a winch.
Most trailers offer a bunk extension so you can load longer wood- You can usually have a few feet of overhang too, especially with stuff stacked on top of it.
another option
a skidder and a self-loading logging truck
skid the logs to the loading area, then load
Quote from: DDW_OR on November 30, 2017, 05:45:15 PM
another option
a skidder and a self-loading logging truck
skid the logs to the loading area, then load
https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,96665.msg1527692.html#msg1527692
What's the budget on this?
Have you thought about getting an old forwarder like an Iron Mule? Could use your CUT as a winch to skid to trail, then use the forwarder to move logs.
To answers some of the questions:
This will be used mainly in the forest, not as an over-the-road trailer (though occasionally it might be pulled up to a few miles over the road behind a tractor)
I have a logging winch on my compact tractor that we can use to get the logs trailside. (If we get more serious about this, I'm going to need to trade up to a bigger tractor, which is a bummer, because I've finally got this one set up nicely for working in the woods.)
We're trying to keep this small-scale. We're landowners with occasional need to get out more logs than is practical to do pulling one at a time in an arch. We'd like to avoid skidding the logs all the way out - don't want to tear up our trails and load the logs up with dirt.
A skidder, log truck or Iron Mule is not really in the cards for us. A mini forwarder would be as big as we wanted to go, but those are prohibitively expensive new, and no one is selling them used (at least not in our area)
We haven't really set a budget at this point. US$8 - $10,000 is do-able. We might be able to go higher. We'd certainly consider used in good condition, but haven't seen much for sale (we also haven;t been looking for very long.
I looked into this a while ago. At that time there were no small forwarding trailers set up with road-worthy tires, wheel bearings brakes and lights. Likewise, none of the road-worthy self-loading trailers were designed to serve as forwarders. I hope this has changed, but I haven't seen any evidence.
Hi John. First go on Youtube and write : Bombadil logging farm tractor boreal forest. Look at those wonderfull and instructive video .
I have the very same equipment, 1643 Massey Ferguson, (4X4) 43 hp hydrostat transmission. 351 Farmi winch that I use to pull the logs to my main trails and a METAVIC 1150 m14 forwarder trailer exactly like m. Bombadil . It can carry +- 8000 pounds of logs ( I put some 16 footers in it, hemlocks logs over 1000 pounds each. ). The bed is 11.5 ft long, the boom is 14 ft , do not buy a shorter boom. It can be equipped to go on the road, it can have traction ( those are options you have to pay. It is the exact size of my tractor (66 in.wide) Of course my trails are wide and the land is flat. The whole forwarder weight 2500 pounds ( 1250 for the trailer, 1250 for the crane) Mine has no options and cost me $15,000 ( Canadian money) .
Once in my life I bought something with another person.......I'll never do it again .....but that is your choice. Good luck .I guess with some luck you could fine a good used one.
Thanks, Roger. I've seen those Bombadil videos. In fact, I believe I posted a link to them a while back (but that may have been on a tractor-focused forum, rather than here on the FF).
Metavic is one of the ones I was looking at. I was looking at the M95 Tractor model, just because some of the folks who are interested have smaller equipment to use with it (small pick-up trucks or compact tractors). My own tractor is a New Holland TC33D (33 HP Hydrostatic). I keep thinking I should step up a size, but it's hard to make the jump, since I've added some modifications to this one, and all of my implements are sized for it.
John, I looked at your tractor spec, your hydraulic pump give 7.6 gpm, If I remember well Metavic recommand 8 gpm and 2500 psi ( my tractor has enough gpm but my release valve is set at 2276 pounds on Massey's tractor so I cannot use all the power on my crane but it still strong enough for my needs) . If you buy a bigger tractor you must know if your hydraulic has an **open center or a close center hydraulic unit. ** Most of tractor under 60 hp are open center BUT John Deere and bigger tractor are all close center ( I think) only check that if you buy a used forwarder. If new , they set the hydraulic for your needs. Have you seen a M95 in real ? Some think they can use them with an atv......then the trail have to be clean and flat and a rigid axle, I cannot imagine them carrying a full load with such a tow vehicle, but a small tractor could easily tow and a pick-up also. But I do not think you can carry a 16 footer with those.
Roger -
I'm going to look at an M95 in the near future. It's not something I would pull with an ATV. There are much smaller & lighter units that are more suited to an ATV. This will be pulled by tractors similar to mine. If we could come up with enough $, maybe we'd bump up to the 1150. I'm just worried that at 2500# empty, we've used up a bunch of the tow capacity of some of the vehicles that would be pulling it.
I'm also hoping to look at the Woody 105-HD loader on their 9-58 trailer. Unfortunately, the nearest dealer only has larger stuff in stock.
I keep going back and forth about one of those vs a larger unit, or just going with parbuckling or DanG-Deadheader log lift on a less expensive trailer.
Hey John, just a couple of things to consider. if the trailer and loader are used by others then on your gear hydraulic fluid problems may be transferred to your gear. If someone else uses poor or used hydraulic oil then it will enter your gear if you use your tractor hydraulics, or if metal bits are about the same. So with multiple users maybe independent hydraulics on the loader. You will also come across two types of legs.. telescopic or fold out stabilizer legs. On sloped or rough ground , in my experience at least the fold out legs did better. In a tippy sitch the can be extended out and prevent a rollover. In the older models they provided a wider stance. The real problem with a loader is how to get the smile off your face once you use one. :D
Thanks for the tip about the legs, Stephen.
There is no way I would hook up group-owned equipment to my tractor's hydraulics. Originally, I was thinking PTO pump, but since some of the group want's to use it behind a pickup or tractors without hydraulic remotes, we'll probably be going with the gas-engine powered hydraulics
John, 16 ft. logs are possible depending on the bed length. Depending on how much is hanging off the back traction up and down hills can be a problem. The bed on my trailer is 13 feet and a full load of 16 ft logs gets a little harry going down steep hills. Brakes would be mandatory if you do not have the hydraulic drive assist. The hydraulic drive assist is not cheap ( between 8 and 10 thousand extra
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20547/DSC00363.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1262824823)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/20547/DSC00026_28229.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1357612348) ) but worth every penny if you are doing this full time. Part time it could be hard to justify the added expense.
Quote from: bill m on December 01, 2017, 07:45:39 PM
John, 16 ft. logs are possible depending on the bed length. Depending on how much is hanging off the back traction up and down hills can be a problem. The bed on my trailer is 13 feet and a full load of 16 ft logs gets a little harry going down steep hills. Brakes would be mandatory if you do not have the hydraulic drive assist.
I think we are gong to have to scale back from our original 16' goal. However, given the hills on which we need to operate
QuoteThe hydraulic drive assist is not cheap ( between 8 and 10 thousand extra, but worth every penny if you are doing this full time. Part time it could be hard to justify the added expense.
Ouch! I didn't realize they were that expensive. That may have to be relegated to the "we hope to retrofit one some day" list
Definitely you'll want good tire chains and 4wd for whatever tows it, especially without the assist. I forgot they were that expensive but now I remember that's a big part of why our farma was so affordable for a big trailer.
I don't know if this is possible with your group land ownership, but have you considered owning the trailer yourself and maybe renting the service of the trailer for when the others need to use it? Seems like it could solve some of the problems but probably introduce more too... just a thought, I know I'd rather be sole owner on something like this. And sole operator...
Quote from: celliott on December 02, 2017, 05:08:16 AM
I don't know if this is possible with your group land ownership, but have you considered owning the trailer yourself and maybe renting the service of the trailer for when the others need to use it? Seems like it could solve some of the problems but probably introduce more too... just a thought, I know I'd rather be sole owner on something like this. And sole operator...
The problem with renting is that you are now a commercial operation and can have significant liability if something goes wrong and someone get's hurt (including if they get hurt from their own ignorance or lack of familiarity). Even having someone sign a waiver does not protect you - they can't waive their spouse or children's right to sue, or their medical insurance company's right to sue to recover costs (known as "right of subrogation"). This is one of the reasons companies renting equipment have major-league liability insurance policies. A co-owner is not held to the same standard.
Owning equipment as a group does require a different mode of thinking: "I'm letting someone else use
my equipment" vs "I'm using
our equipment." You do have to pick your partners carefully.
BTW, the co-owners on this would not be the same as the co-owners on the land. Three of the landowners would be in (including me). My forester (who also happens to be a good friend) and a couple of others so far. I still don't know if this will actually happen. The price tag may still scare enough people off that the attempt falls apart.
Does no one in this group have a welder?
Find an old k30 or f350 dually dump, pull the cab and bed, make operator station up near the radiator, chain it up, weld the steer axle differential, sell the bed and weld on some bunks. Pitch in to buy a crane and bypass rotary grapple together and run it off the trans PTO. Transport it with a car trailer and pull all the 16 footers you want. The guys with toyotas can man up and get real trucks. Logging is heavy, if you wanna play logger youre gonna play heavy equipment too.
It's a nice concept, Mike, but there are plenty of people in our area with large equipment when we have that need. We are intentionally looking to go small and light here. None of us are interested in logging full time. This is for smaller jobs and going after the occasional trees which were blown down in a storm or grabbing a few trees for a special project - both situations where we don't want to open up the forest for larger equipment. Most of us are doing this sort of work on occasion now (not commercially), we're just interested in making it a bit easier to do and minimizing the distance we drag the trees, tearing up trails and loading the logs up with dirt
The guys with the small trucks got them small on purpose, not because they couldn't afford a larger one. They understand their usage will be limited in this application. Odds are, they'll call on one of us with a tractor to get the wood out to an area that is easier to reach with their truck, and they'll do the haul from there. The small truck use is sort of incidental to the whole project: they'll be used where the trails are good enough (and flat enough) to allow it to free up the tractor for the more difficult stuff.
There are folks doing this sort of thing with ATVs. In fact, there used to be a guy in the area from a 3rd generation logging family that left the business, then got back into it doing horse logging with a sideline of ATV logging. The ATV stuff in particular is more specialty work: he can reach places that larger equipment can't get to (at least not without some major trail work).
We're looking at a step bigger, without going "full-scale". Most of this is for personal use or for local specialty projects. My own current interest is in salvaging some nice red oaks that blew down in a windstorm. Not enough to interest someone to come in and do some commercial work, but some of it might get used as flooring in the tiny house my son is building. If I can make it easy for them to get at, a local mill will send their truck to pick it up and turn it in to flooring for us, but for them to send their crew in to pull out a dozen downed trees just doesn't make sense.
As we get further in to this, I'm thinking that our hope of pulling out 16 footers may be too ambitious - at least in most cases, and especially with the larger diameter hardwoods.
Its been a long time since i was around anyone with spare money, ive kinda forgotten those days. I guess when you have spare money and just want to do something because youd enjoy it, you just can. Only people with spare money can consider a $15k trailer to get a few trees because economically its just preposterous. But then again so are vacations. Yet theres nothing wrong with vacations if you can afford them.
I guess i get your goals now. I think youre coming around to the idea .. But ill state it clearly. If you want to mess around with a trailer load of wet 16' red oak thats big enough to get some lumber out of, youre talking crawler tractor power unit. Even a big 4wd AG tractor will get pushed around by that load on anything with a side slope or hill.
16' sticks are also gonna take a bigger road unless you have some really well designed trails and favorable terrain. With compact tractors, I think an an arch up front and a skateboard dolley on back is how thatd have to be done, one stick at a time, to keep from digging up the trails. If you cant lift one end of a log it just tears the heck out of a place and feels like it weighs 3x more.
Btw, im not saying dont do it or dont have fun in the woods or anything like that. I am all for that. But if you need a community owned piece of equipment it means no one person has the cash for it or theyd buy it alone. So from that perspective i say, go have your fun with what youve got. I have done what youre talking about with stuff other people literally scrapped, and i have enjoyed building it just as much as working it. Maybe even more. Find some junk, whip something up with your buddies and drink beer. Go try it, break it, drink more beer, change it and try to break it again.
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Quote from: mike_belben on December 02, 2017, 01:25:38 PM
Only people with spare money can consider a $15k trailer to get a few trees because economically its just preposterous. But then again so are vacations. Yet theres nothing wrong with vacations if you can afford them.
I guess i get your goals now.
Well, you sort of get the goals. That's exactly why no
one of us would buy the trailer. We simply don't have enough need of it to justify paying that kind of money. Some of us would use it a lot more than others, but none of us are in this full time. No way I could justify $15K for my own use, however, I could certainly justify $2,500.
Quote from: mike_belben on December 02, 2017, 01:49:50 PM
Btw, im not saying dont do it or dont have fun in the woods or anything like that. I am all for that. But if you need a community owned piece of equipment it means no one person has the cash for it or theyd buy it alone. So from that perspective i say, go have your fun with what youve got. I have done what youre talking about with stuff other people literally scrapped, and i have enjoyed building it just as much as working it. Maybe even more. Find some junk, whip something up with your buddies and drink beer. Go try it, break it, drink more beer, change it and try to break it again.
Nice pics. Hard to believe that little thing is moving those logs.
At least two of those involved could afford to buy it, but that's not the same thing as justifying spending the money for their own individual use (and one of those with the $$ also has the least experience and least need. For him, it's just something for fun: "I want to make something out of this log that came form my own land", and he's hoping to learn a bit from the others involved). 5 or 6 of us could keep it busy and get enough out of it to have it make some sense.
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I agree that is amazing.
John Mc, i did a quick search on the Vermont craigslist and found some interesting items
use some of these searches
Logging
grapple -hay -bail
crane
hoist
hydraulic
set the price to 2 and 3500
FYI, i got into trouble linking to listings so that is why i did not.
saw this
Homemade skidders (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php/topic,98919.0.html)
this gave me the idea that a pickup could be converted to a small logging truck
Quote from: John Mc on December 02, 2017, 02:06:21 PM
Quote from: mike_belben on December 02, 2017, 01:49:50 PM
Btw, im not saying dont do it or dont have fun in the woods or anything like that. I am all for that. But if you need a community owned piece of equipment it means no one person has the cash for it or theyd buy it alone. So from that perspective i say, go have your fun with what youve got. I have done what youre talking about with stuff other people literally scrapped, and i have enjoyed building it just as much as working it. Maybe even more. Find some junk, whip something up with your buddies and drink beer. Go try it, break it, drink more beer, change it and try to break it again.
Nice pics. Hard to believe that little thing is moving those logs.
At least two of those involved could afford to buy it, but that's not the same thing as justifying spending the money for their own individual use (and one of those with the $$ also has the least experience and least need. For him, it's just something for fun: "I want to make something out of this log that came form my own land", and he's hoping to learn a bit from the others involved). 5 or 6 of us could keep it busy and get enough out of it to have it make some sense.
Just a quick question how large of logs are you expecting to pickup, as well as how much weight are you going to pack? Only reason I ask we have a Farmi forwarder trailer that we've used here and there to do road clean ups ect with on a 90 horse Deere tractor it's no forwarder or shovel to put it nicely does it work for light stuff yes, now to the bad the brakes being hydraulic on ours are a pain they're either locked up or you free wheel, then the turning tongue has its place but most of the time it's pain, the loader is on the light side and the landing gear love to sink they need wider pads.
That poor little JD. :o
Need to shorten up a truck for it to really shine in the works,getting a truck turned around in the woods ssome room.
There is a guy just a few miles from me that shorten up a Ford truck,for a plow truck. The rear tires are just about 3 feet behind the cab. I stopped in to see how he did it. I forgot now,but it survived last winter.
Make it yourself.
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This winter I'll convert it to a forwarder. It runs on charcoal, that is what the tanks are for.
Maybe you need a portable mill, swing or chain.
Get a light weight trailer or build one. Use a winch to load in the woods. Then use a road machine to deliver it. Keep your cash for something that will not loose value.
I think a good (log rite) log arch would be enough for occasional log retrieval.
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 02, 2017, 03:24:16 PM
Just a quick question how large of logs are you expecting to pickup, as well as how much weight are you going to pack?
We're hoping to be able to haul 5000# or so, but some of the tow vehicles probably won't be able to handle that in the rougher terrain, so they'll be using a lighter load (or waiting for someone with a more capable vehicle to do the pulling). I suspect the log size will be limited by the loader capacity. On these smaller trailers, you can only pick up 1000 - 1500# depending on which one we get.
Puffergas - finding a trailer and setting it up for parbuckling or using a DanG Deadheader log lifter is still in the running. If we go that way, I'll probably just own it myself or with one of the guys who are in the landowner group. Just trying to consider all the options before we decide.
gspren - We've already got access to an arch (well, some of us do). We're looking for a step up from an arch for the times we have more volume to move
Quote from: John Mc on December 02, 2017, 07:21:44 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 02, 2017, 03:24:16 PM
Just a quick question how large of logs are you expecting to pickup, as well as how much weight are you going to pack?
We're hoping to be able to haul 5000# or so, but some of the tow vehicles probably won't be able to handle that in the rougher terrain, so they'll be using a lighter load (or waiting for someone with a more capable vehicle to do the pulling). I suspect the log size will be limited by the loader capacity. On these smaller trailers, you can only pick up 1000 - 1500# depending on which one we get.
I'll look around at the elima film there was a perfect machine for your application I'm not sure of the price but if I find it I'll post the video.
Alstor maybe?
John, if you want go on my photo gallery and have a look what we could log with an ATV. on a very hilly trails.
21,000 board feet of wood, to build our house. The largest was a spruce 21 in. wide, 17 ft long......we also got some oak 17 ft long 25 to 30 in. wide...that were log with a D6 bulldozer :D.
Good luck
Mike & Skeans1
Is this what you are talking about?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqsdF-fBO-0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HyLsgFdEpU
Looks like a great machine, but the price SK550,000 (Swedish Krona) amounts to over US$65,000. A good bit out of out range.
Last night as I was explaining to my wife a second time why the junk forklift I drug home was such a good deal... :), I realized another nice bit about it.
A hydraulic drive axle! Or at least I think it's hydraulic drive.
If you are thinking build instead of buy, would be worth looking at some junk equipment or equipment salvage yards. A combine rear axle could give you a steerable powered axle for tight trails...
I've also thought that an old 4x4 hydrostat combine stripped down and reversed would make a good redneck forwarder, but may be too wide for a lot of people.
There's also a thread on here somewhere where someone built a small forwarder out of an old ditch witch trencher.
Here ya go:
https://youtu.be/mHH4dO3Qsfg
https://youtu.be/MdqbJmSBkIc
https://youtu.be/iXW4Qm7i1fw
Quote from: John Mc on December 03, 2017, 08:55:00 AM
Mike & Skeans1
Is this what you are talking about?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqsdF-fBO-0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HyLsgFdEpU
Looks like a great machine, but the price SK550,000 (Swedish Krona) amounts to over US$65,000. A good bit out of out range.
This is more what I was thinking of https://www.mascus.com/forestry/used-skidders/kranman-t3000/eihnalct.html
Bigblue12v on arboristsite i think built one of the best trencher skidders ive seen. For their size trenchers are extremely potent because they use narrowed truck axles and weigh a ton. I have a burkeen b30 project for my next mini skidder. Also a ditchwitch 350sx. Very specialized parts you cant find cheaply anywhere else.
Alstors are cool but i could have a knuckleboom, skidder, dozer, truck and trailer for that.
Bigblue12v is member here also, yes he has built some impressive stuff.
The only advantage those homemade forwarders have over a two wheel drive tractor and trailer is, that they turn a little sharper and have a bit more traction on the drive axle. Probably fine for a couple of cords.
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 03, 2017, 08:41:09 PM
This is more what I was thinking of https://www.mascus.com/forestry/used-skidders/kranman-t3000/eihnalct.html
Looks interesting - or the T4500.
The Kranman web site doesn't seem to post a lot of specs on their equipment. Any idea how long the loading area is on the T3000 (or the T4500, for that matter)?
Quote from: mike_belben on December 03, 2017, 08:55:35 PM
Bigblue12v on arboristsite i think built one of the best trencher skidders ive seen. For their size trenchers are extremely potent because they use narrowed truck axles and weigh a ton. I have a burkeen b30 project for my next mini skidder. Also a ditchwitch 350sx. Very specialized parts you cant find cheaply anywhere else.
Alstors are cool but i could have a knuckleboom, skidder, dozer, truck and trailer for that.
If you look at the link I put up that's a much cheaper option
Quote from: John Mc on December 03, 2017, 10:58:00 PM
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 03, 2017, 08:41:09 PM
This is more what I was thinking of https://www.mascus.com/forestry/used-skidders/kranman-t3000/eihnalct.html
Looks interesting - or the T4500.
The Kranman web site doesn't seem to post a lot of specs on their equipment. Any idea how long the loading area is on the T3000 (or the T4500, for that matter)?
No idea but found a video of the smaller one that's self contained it looks like it'd do 16's but I don't think you'd be doing 20's.
https://youtu.be/LGpqN_OWEgI
Another advantage of the 2wd tractor forwarder hack is what I call the wiggle factor. If it is somewhat stuck there is a fair chance that a wiggle, by steering left and right, will free it. A lot of old tractors with patched front ends and worn out steering boxes out there, also less desk desirable narrow front ends. Although brakes would be nice.
Hey John, by what you're describing you want to do I'd have a serious look at the FARMA 4.2-6 (site sponsor too)
It's a 14' telescopic boom that uses a 4 cylinder rack and pinion turnhouse. The trailer has a capacity of 6 tons, the length is adjustable and comes with metal encased foldable brake lights/ flashers.
http://forsmw.com/forestry-trailer-with-crane/ct-42-6?group=prod_prod_grp-s1%2F26
Shoot me a pm if you want.
Chubby - thanks for the link. I looked at the Farma offerings and I'd love to own one, but I'm afraid they are just too big for what we need. We'd be happy with a 3 ton capacity (and could live with 2.5 ton payload). I had actually contacted someone asking if any smaller units were planned for the future, but was told that is not in your plans.
Any chance you guys are going to be at the Northeast Forest Products Equipment Expo (http://northernlogger.com/loggers-expo/) in Essex Jct, Vermont on May 11-12? I'm going to be checking out equipment there, if we haven't already made the leap. It's usually quite a show.
Quote from: John Mc on December 09, 2017, 11:08:46 PM
Chubby - thanks for the link. I looked at the Farma offerings and I'd love to own one, but I'm afraid they are just too big for what we need. We'd be happy with a 3 ton capacity (and could live with 2.5 ton payload). I had actually contacted someone asking if any smaller units were planned for the future, but was told that is not in your plans.
Any chance you guys are going to be at the Northeast Forest Products Equipment Expo (http://northernlogger.com/loggers-expo/) in Essex Jct, Vermont on May 11-12? I'm going to be checking out equipment there, if we haven;t already made the leap. It's usually quite a show.
It's cool show I've been to it once in the early 2000's is a different kind of show then what we get here in the PNW is nice seeing some smaller equipment for once.
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 10, 2017, 12:55:24 AM
Quote from: John Mc on December 09, 2017, 11:08:46 PM
Chubby - thanks for the link. I looked at the Farma offerings and I'd love to own one, but I'm afraid they are just too big for what we need. We'd be happy with a 3 ton capacity (and could live with 2.5 ton payload). I had actually contacted someone asking if any smaller units were planned for the future, but was told that is not in your plans.
Any chance you guys are going to be at the Northeast Forest Products Equipment Expo (http://northernlogger.com/loggers-expo/) in Essex Jct, Vermont on May 11-12? I'm going to be checking out equipment there, if we haven;t already made the leap. It's usually quite a show.
It's cool show I've been to it once in the early 2000's is a different kind of show then what we get here in the PNW is nice seeing some smaller equipment for once.
Yeah. I've been several times, since I live about 30 miles from the Essex Junction location. It always draws a good crowd.
Quote from: John Mc on December 10, 2017, 08:17:48 AM
Quote from: Skeans1 on December 10, 2017, 12:55:24 AM
Quote from: John Mc on December 09, 2017, 11:08:46 PM
Chubby - thanks for the link. I looked at the Farma offerings and I'd love to own one, but I'm afraid they are just too big for what we need. We'd be happy with a 3 ton capacity (and could live with 2.5 ton payload). I had actually contacted someone asking if any smaller units were planned for the future, but was told that is not in your plans.
Any chance you guys are going to be at the Northeast Forest Products Equipment Expo (http://northernlogger.com/loggers-expo/) in Essex Jct, Vermont on May 11-12? I'm going to be checking out equipment there, if we haven;t already made the leap. It's usually quite a show.
It's cool show I've been to it once in the early 2000's is a different kind of show then what we get here in the PNW is nice seeing some smaller equipment for once.
Yeah. I've been several times, since I live about 30 miles from the Essex Junction location. It always draws a good crowd.
Yes absolutely we'll be there. We were there in 2016 and it was alot of fun so we've decided to double the size of our booth in the spring. We'll have a bunch of cool new things as well as some free goodies for forum members (might even be a few cold ones in the cooler for those who can handle Candian beer 8) )
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/40017/champlain~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1513189600)
I bought a used one of these for about $6K. Works pretty good but it can be a little janky in operation when grapple is near capacity especially if the trailer is empty. You just have to mind what you're doing and how you're set up. I think the track width needs widening for my terrain but its narrowness can be a plus. The bunk length will take an 8-footer but I've had 12s on it as long as you keep it hooked up to your tow vehicle.
http://www.grpanderson.com/en/descriptive-sheet/?id=8276 (http://www.grpanderson.com/en/descriptive-sheet/?id=8276)
Another idea for you: I bought an old New Holland hay wagon running gear locally for $250, dirt cheap but needed tires. It's 20' long and the length is adjusted by changing the length of the center connecting pipe. It's four wheel, front steer, has a 10K load capacity. Just needed to put some bolsters on it and it's good to go. Nice because with no tongue weight or landing gear, you can just park it where you want it to load it up and then haul it off. With the self-loading trailer you have to stay hooked up to it. Since I do my skidding with a CTL, I just skid to the trailer and then load the log directly. If I use the self-loader, it's a two step operation. If I have room for the modded hay wagon, it's faster work.
Do the have a parking brake of any sort? Ive been kicking the hay wagon idea around but none have come my way. Theres a stripped motor home chassis near my house that ive considered haggling for to put bunks and a drawbar then pull behind my dozer
The tongue that slides is easier to hook up. Seen them with brakes but never parking brakes. Never seen an old one with any brakes.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19539/wagon.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1271381665)
Mike, I thought you had a kiln full of "parking brakes" drying. ;D :D
http://lumberjocks.com/projects/39545 (http://lumberjocks.com/projects/39545)
That motor home chassis would be heavier than a travel trailer or mobile home frame. IE, it should do the job.
Don't guess your dozer has a 3 point on the back. Makes moving tounge heavy pintle hitch trailers real easy. ;)
If not, Mother Earth News had an article on using a car frame as a hay wagon including tying a tounge to the tie rods for steering.
https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/hay-wagon-zmaz76mazhar (https://www.motherearthnews.com/diy/hay-wagon-zmaz76mazhar)
The best tongues have a slide extension that can be unlocked and pulled forward to hitch, then back the tractor up to hit a spring loaded pin to lock position, then drive off. Always made sure that wagon was my lead before we got a gooseneck hay trailer as wagons are harder to move when loaded and can be a real pain to hook up loaded without a spotter.
I wish it did have a 3pt but dozer only has a drawbar for now. And i broke the kiln again so i guess my parking brakes will be wet!
My parking brakes look a lot like tire chocks.
You could make a trailer or a wagon out of an old truck that has air brakes. Maxi Cans (spelling ?) makes a good parking brake. But an air compressor would be needed.
Hope this helps https://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/21223711/2016-hakmet-400
As always, sorry for dredging up the past with this old thread but the query is applicable to my question;. I too would like a forestry trailer, to go along with my CUT. That thing has just 25 horses inside, and spins a pto at 540.
Now just take money out of it-l don't have much anyway-but also cost-effectiveness versus other ideas- I just want one😆. Question is what makes can be pto- driven? Can't make out from most websites other than Farmi-they offer it for sure- if this is a common thing. Please keep in mind, application is nearly 100 percent early-stage plantation thinning.
Any sense in looking at Chinese offerings?
Final question, I've come to think that with my tractor, and such a trailer, a winch and a couple snatch blocks, I should be able to both remove whole rows, as well as remove individual stems to where they can be picked up. Think pine, spruce, larch. Anyone see any holes in my theory? Thnx
I has forgotten all about this thread. I was the one who started it a little over 4 years ago.
Not too long after that, I found a used Metavic M95 loader on one of their 13RF trailers. It had about 50 hours on it and was in great condition. It had the self powered hydraulics option, and the hydraulic winch option. There is no hydraulic assist available on this particular model, but I believe they do offer it on others.
The previous owner was concerned about having his small pickup (Tacoma) and +/- 30 HP Kubota tractor pushed around on his hilly property when loaded, so he had them add electric brakes. His truck already had a brake controller. He added a cheap automotive brake controller to his tractor, which he ran manually by the lever on the controller (since a tractor does not have a brake light circuit to trigger the controller). The controller was connected via plugs to his tractor's electrical system. He would remove the controller when not in use.
My tractor is basically the New Holland equivalent of his Kubota, and I also own a Tacoma. I've used it behind both. Unless I'm operating on dry, flat ground, I have my studded "Euro-style" chains on the rear wheels of the tractor. They seem to have enough stopping power that I don't get pushed around. I would not operated on hills without the chains, unless I was on nice trails with moderate slopes. I have not hooked the brake controller up on my tractor yet. I keep hoping to find an option for the controller that is weather-proof, so I'm not constantly worried about taking it off or otherwise protecting it from rain or snow.
With the deal I got on a good used forwarding trailer, I dropped the idea of a group purchase. I'm glad I did. Managing that was likely to be complicated, and I don't want to risk some good friendships by owning an expensive piece of equipment together.
In this photo, it was connected to the trailer itch on my logging winch. Typically, I connect it directly to the tractor's draw bar. It makes for a bit more compact set up when operating in the woods.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16836/M95_MCS_Woods_small~0.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1627834225)
Thanks John. Good on ye finding a used unit. I just don't see them come up used much.
Glad you got your situation worked out.
I stumbled across some CANAG forwarding trailers when I was dropping off my logging winch at a forestry equipment repair shop not far from me. He had a few different models in sizes suitable for towing behind a large ATV on up to a compact or larger tractor. I had never heard of them before, despite the fact that they are just few hours away from me between Montreal and Quebec.
Canag Farm Technology (https://www.canagfarmtechnology.com/) click on the brochures link near the top right, and scroll way down on that page.
Brochure does not mention hydraulic drive. They seemed lighter weight than my Metavic trailer, but well made.
Quote from: wisconsitom on January 28, 2022, 02:51:30 PM
Thanks John. Good on ye finding a used unit. I just don't see them come up used much.
Glad you got your situation worked out.
I got lucky. He was just a couple hours down the road from me.
The only used ones I've seen for sale other than this one are just about beat to death.
I'm not sure what your soils and slopes are like, but so far in just over 3 years of use, I have not really had a need for the hydraulic drive. I stay out of the woods with my equipment anyway when things are wet and soft. I really don't want to tear up the trails and start erosion happening on the hills. If you don't have the option of waiting for good conditions, I could see where the hydraulic drive would be handy.
Thanks bud. I'll look at CANAG.
Like you, I will have the option of staying out of the woods when conditions get soft. My slopes are gentle, although we're in a hilly area. Any unit I'll ever have will be used for what amounts to "hobby logging", me managing my own stands so as to allow for best growth of leave trees. I'm already 65 so even though I move around pretty good, most I'll be looking at is first thinning. Rapidly growing stuff, planted just back in '13.
I can probably get by without too much fancy trailer drive wheels. Big thing for me is I have that pto just sitting there. I'd like to use it!
I've seen cable jammer loaders on small forestry trailers pulled behind tractors. As much as I would love a hydraulic unit, if a guy is handy and can find an old jammer (scrap yard) that would be an economical option.
If youve got a decent junkpile and basic skills a cable jammer is pretty easy. I dont think i left the yard to put mine together. Amazon dropped off the tongs, 500amp contactor, anderson connector and wireless remote. I had everything else on hand.
Pipe over pipe for the crane works fine. Just grease, no bearings. You dont swing it loaded anyway, it gets positioned then you lock it in place and winch to it.
I can safely move a cord of oak at a time with 26hp 2wd on rolling ground. With a loader and 4wd to keep the nose down probably 2 cord. I have no issue with horsepower at all, will lug out in 6th but wheelie at the first hill. Creek crossings are a challenge too. The tractor crosses, trailer gets into the hole and then tractor cant tug it up and out. 4wd probably do it.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1116211401.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637113409)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1103211435.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635980660)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1103211645a.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635980594)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1103211646.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1635981355)
Those are 15ft by 10" WO on bottom. They make it wanna unhitch. Next one will be pintle.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/43722/1125210921a-1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1637863856)
Mike,
Very nice build,being handy is a good paying job and you can stay home.
Best regards
Very nice Mike ! What size square tube did you use on that ? Do you think you could build that off of a small Farmi winch or would the be to much clutch slipping trying to control the cable ??
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21065/Fwdr2.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1535540525)
gg
Ive never tried it with a friction type winch but i bet its a good way to get injured. The lowering down really needs to be in a controlled manner. I am using an 8k and it could probably snap the main post. The comealong is a fuse so that it doesnt wreck the structure.
i bet a 4500 could do it with short cable to make more advantage on the spool diameter.
The tubing is 2x2 inside a larger square like receiver, from a bigrig car carrier trailer i cut up years ago but it is only in compression. The chain or cable that makes the top cord where i am using a comealong is in pure tension. The pipe mast is the only one with a bending moment. This is not at all like the dynamics of an engine hoist and doesnt need to have a big diameter lower cord. 2x2 is fine at 3/16s.
A swivel end pulley is important for an anchored mast. A straight pulley will require a swinging jib that is completely free to follow the cable or itll derail over the pulley shoulder. But a swinging jib follows the countour of the land and flails out to the side like a car door on a steep shoulder. you have to manually move things you cant manually move with that system which is why they have power slew at that point. It is better to be able to position and constrain the mast where you need it, and unconstrain the swivelling pulley.
The longer the mast the better, but then the more it wanta to torque and flip the trailer, requiring bigger outriggers. If the mast is short its strong but them it pulls logs under thr trailer before it tries to raise them and now youre stuck
These things dont push logs away very well at all. Some of the ones i load cant be moved by hand really at all once they jam under the trailer
Youve got to also be able to raise and lower the pulley as the load gets higher. Its easier than heaving but its not a real efficient way to load compared to any other machine. This one step over squatting down and picking wood up. I dont have 4 spare strongmen on call so this is what i do. The only advantage it has over a hydraulic crane is reach. 40 foot away isnt a big deal if its lined up right and doesnt snag.
Travelling through the woods to each log only works with tiny stuff. Bigger wood that requires outriggers is better staged in a piling or fed to the parked trailer. setting up outriggers then breaking down to move for every log adds 5 more minutes. It is more efficient to stage clusters of logs at clearings where the trailer can pull in right next to or perpendicular to the pile and be flat or downhill of the pile. Loading uphill is harder. loading from the end is not possible. Youll just winch it under the "tailgate" and have to pull forward to get off it. You are always sideloading, either parallel or perpendicular
That's a nice set-up, Mike. I wish I had those design and fabrication skills. (I can stick two piece of metal together, but I don't trust myself in high load situations or when safety is a big concern.)
I was going to ask what size winch you used, but see you already answered that. Is your winch line doubled through a snatch block, or is it a single line pull?
Thanks guys. Its just single line and a full spool. 8k is plenty for cable jamming but small for skidding.
Its slow by nature but has no trouble if the voltage is up. The biggest issue is i need a 100+ amp alternator on it and the 50yr old tractor has a 10 amp generator. I just havent got to cutting off the generator yet. I use 2 big batteries and charge them up before hand but for now it is parked. This is just to cleanup tops after logging, its cheaper to wear out the $1,000 tractor and keep hours off the $10k dozer bottom.
The sweet spot for it in oak is 13ft by 10 inch or smaller. Above that its really drawing amps i dont have yet and bringing the batteries down. Biggest sawlog it should do is probably a 16.. Maybe 18 inch 10footer. You load end for end and the close end is easy. The longer the log, the thinner it must be because the farther away the end the harder it is on the mast post. Lifting the far end is close to lifting the whole log. It will center lift a whole 15ft x 10 inch but the mast is flexing pretty good and i dont want a snap to drop that on me.
For trailer loading behind a farmi i would build a tag trailer with a tall DanG Deadheader across the back with hydraulic positioning off the tractor remotes like a round bale unroller. Itd have a swivel hook pulley to guide the farmi cable and multiple positions on the arch crossbar where it could be hung, not just in the center, let the equipment heave logs over so you dont have to.
The cable goes through the pulley and brings the log right up to the arch from the tailgate end, Raising it up. Now hydraulic the deadheader forward to set the butt ontop the pile. Slack the line, unhook the tongs and send the deadheader back to overhang the trail. Tong the far end of the log and reel in.. It raises up. Now deadhead forward to slide the log to the headboard. It will also be able to unload off the back.
Hey gg,
On my computer I have a copy of an old book on PDF about using farm tractor s in the woods. Probably swedish?? But has been translated to English. They show Farmi style winches with factory cable loaders on the mast. They do also caution that you need a braked drum for this, as mentioned it would be quite dangerous lowering a load with the normal Farmi operation. Anyway it has some great diagrams, will try to dig it up and send to you. Remind me if I don't remember..
Quote from: mudfarmer on January 31, 2022, 09:57:51 AM
Hey gg,
On my computer I have a copy of an old book on PDF about using farm tractor s in the woods. Probably swedish?? But has been translated to English. They show Farmi style winches with factory cable loaders on the mast. They do also caution that you need a braked drum for this, as mentioned it would be quite dangerous lowering a load with the normal Farmi operation. Anyway it has some great diagrams, will try to dig it up and send to you. Remind me if I don't remember..
Thank you! That would be great mudfarmer. I keep thinking I've got a winch and some hydraulics, maybe I can do something a little better than a DanG. But that simple system is hard to beat.
gg
Mike, thanks for sharing your knowledge and insight with us. You are a big help and make a great sounding board !
gg
Thanks GG. Lord has sent me a lot of wise teachers and i do my best to give it out as freely as i got it in. Nobody lives long enough to make every mistake themselves so we can all help the next guy by sharing our screwups and do overs and occasional triumphs. Right now i know about 25 ways how not to build my outdoor stove.. Still closing in on the one way to make one worth a dang.
Ive looked hard for years at how the europeans tractor logged in the 50s thru 70s and they really were innovative with cable booms on tractors and 2wd tractor forwarders. Paved the way to where we are now.
America just supersizes things. Bigger tires, more iron, more ponies and a huge payment.
Going to be a long time before I am back near laptop I guess. Goggled it and this is the one https://www.maine.gov/dacf/mfs/publications/general_publications/farm_tractor_in_the_forest.pdf Apparently Bombadil Tree Farm convinced the swedes to allow republication and distribution.
I think it would be best to use electric winch for the crane so it will hold a load and reverse direction w braking rather than trying to use Farmi drum. They show some cool snaking using the crane boom though, might not be bad to add pulley for both winches on boom so you can pull fast to machine then switch winches for loading. I was a bit concerned about 3pt top link strength?? They have a bit in there about permanent mounting the setup if used a lot
My Grandpa told me they used to build pto powered jammers out of the rear diff of a car. They would shorten up the axles, and make a drum on one side for cable. When you put power to it, it wouldn't do anything until you engaged the brake which was still complete on the other wheel (open diff). When you quit winching, the brake would still hold the load. I don't know if you could feather it down or if they just dropped it. I'll have to ask him😊 Other guys have told me there were factory units built in Aitkin, MN that used some sort of friction sheave, they said you could hold a load in place or feather it down.
Ive contemplated the narrowed rear with one drum and one brake. a dual drum PTO using two drums abd modulating belt tension to engage it. And dual drum using automotive pressure plates and flywheels. They could all work but short of a machine shop right now im just collecting free junk to the parts heap as it comes.
The electric winch is exceptionally plentiful, simple, cheap, precise and convenient. Not a combination one can honestly say about PTO winches, hydraulic winches or really real logging winches. Electric winches are on the shelf at every chicom retailer in ever city in america now. Remote controls are $20 or less. Contactors are $60. They are sufficient for hobby logging or tree service logging. Not real tract harvesting.
The brake in an electric is good for half of the line pull so thats the best reason to go oversize.
Dont skid with one unless you build a mechanical brake into the drum. Youll wreck the hold brake pretty quickly.
Quote from: mudfarmer on January 31, 2022, 11:23:21 AM
Going to be a long time before I am back near laptop I guess. Goggled it and this is the one https://www.maine.gov/dacf/mfs/publications/general_publications/farm_tractor_in_the_forest.pdf Apparently Bombadil Tree Farm convinced the swedes to allow republication and distribution.
I think it would be best to use electric winch for the crane so it will hold a load and reverse direction w braking rather than trying to use Farmi drum. They show some cool snaking using the crane boom though, might not be bad to add pulley for both winches on boom so you can pull fast to machine then switch winches for loading. I was a bit concerned about 3pt top link strength?? They have a bit in there about permanent mounting the setup if used a lot
Thanks, that quite a publication. Lots of good stuff in there. The picture on the front cover is pretty much what I was thinking. I want to use it thinning. This was all hand loaded which is efficient but I wish I was twice as strong as I used to be.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21065/P1200125.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1569149568)
gg
Forst-Rückekran am Eicher EM200 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKlOW8pG-ag)
Here is a video of a small pecker pole loader fabbed onto a 3pt. hitch winch.
Working with what you got.
Clever suckers out there.
Likes to keep things orderly.
I sure do hate tongs, but that worked pretty slick!
One of the other things I really liked from the swedish paper is the "dump beam" and trip bunks. Yes yes yes very dangerous please spare the lectures :-X ;D
Quote from: barbender on January 31, 2022, 01:20:36 PM
My Grandpa told me they used to build pto powered jammers out of the rear diff of a car. They would shorten up the axles, and make a drum on one side for cable. When you put power to it, it wouldn't do anything until you engaged the brake which was still complete on the other wheel (open diff). When you quit winching, the brake would still hold the load. I don't know if you could feather it down or if they just dropped it. I'll have to ask him😊 Other guys have told me there were factory units built in Aitkin, MN that used some sort of friction sheave, they said you could hold a load in place or feather it down.
My winch is built around a half a rear axle. I welded the diff. Cut off the left axle and capped it. And connected the pto to the input on the diff.
My original plan was to mount a rim on the right side of the axle and use it as a capstan winch. But it moved to fast and I have synthetic line that like to melt. So I replaced the tire rim with a 4 inch diameter pipe and use a car tire for a friction wheel clutch to drive another smaller pulley. Depending on how much weight I put on the tire I can pull a load in, hold it up off the ground or gently lower it.
I can also lock the tire down and use the drum as a capstan winch with natural fiber rope. But the rope is nowhere near as strong as the synthetic line. When set up as a capstan with rope I have very fine control of lifting, holding and lowering a load. Where it really comes in handy is for very long pulls of less than a ton or so. I have about 600 feet of rope. If I set it up with a snatch block on the load that still give me 300 feet of pull at double the weight. I mostly use this for maple syrup. I set a tank at the bottom of the hill on a sled and when it is full I drag the sled to the road with the tractor parked on the road. Once I empty it at the road I pull it back to the bottom of the hill by hand.
That sounds like a great setup, Joe!
Joe, The pictures in your gallery are a big help understanding what you did.
Great idea.
Here are a few pictures. The small circle under the tire is the output of the diff. The tire can be moved up and down to make contact with it by the lever behind the yellow thing.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35805/20201217_151101.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1643672110)
Here is the diff being welded. I forgot I also shortened the right side as short as I could make it. That metal pipe welded to the right was originally a tire rim to use as a capstan but it was too fast.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35805/20201208_162257~1.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1643672350)
So I welded this junk on it. The shaft and bearing is the left side of the diff I cut off. The drum is two cast iron front wheel bearing hubs and the yellow funnel was just to get gear lube into the diff.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35805/20201217_151052.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1643672372)
The tire wanted to slip on the metal shaft so I wrapped it in rubber. Now on a heavy pull the tire slips on the rim and rips the valve stem off the tube. In this picture the tire is lifted up so the drum can free spool to run line out. I lower the tire onto the shaft and the more pressure I put on it the more power it has. This set up acts as a 4 to 1 speed reduction as well.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/35805/20201216_154930.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1643672541)
This is a 16 inch trailer tire. If I were to do it again I would put a small truck tire on it. It would give me more speed reduction(which I don't want), a much bigger contact patch, and a truck tire would take the abuse better. That trailer tire only has a 550 pound weight rating and no torque and I probably put well over a thousand pounds on it and several hundred foot pounds of torque on it.
What isn't shown in the pics is I have a pulley mounted about 5 1/2 off the ground above the drum. That allows the line to spool in better when doing pulls that aren't perfectly in line with the tractor. Although more than 30degrees or so and it starts wanting to tip the tractor. By pulling from up high it helps the logs clear obstacles on the ground and it helps the blade on the bottom really bite into the ground.
The entire thing is made out of garbage except the inner tube, synthetic line and the splines part of the pto shaft.
The body is used plow blades, and the pto shaft is a CV shaft from a car.
The 3 point, hydraulics and pump on the tractor are all made from scrap as well.
Controlling a full axle as a winch by using a brake on one side causes the opposite side to run at 2x the speed it normally would run at, and half the torque. So you need to reduce the input speed to half of what the gear ratio of the diff would normally need. And the diff will see double the force on the pinion and ring gears.
Thanks one and all for a good bunch of info. On reflection, I've realized the item actually most needed now is winch. I do most of my felling and skidding in winter, which is usually favorable, just need better way to snake stuff out. All I do now is unfurl some cable with choker and then have to pull straight out which is obviously limiting.
Already looking at Farmi, Wallenstein, Hudson. Wouldn't mind pto, but someone said elec better. Probably don't need fanciest unit, just matched to my tractor. Not hitting the rear pocket too hard's always good 😊.
No no.. Electric will never be better behind a tractor in a skidding role, it is far inferior to even the smallest PTO winch and will tax an oem charging system when used to skid.
Let me clarify that electric is multitudes cheaper, simpler and more available to put on a diy cable jammer trailer. That is the only place where very slow line speed is a bonus.
A really potent, versatile, one-man woods rig would be:
1- a decent sized 4wd tractor with a front loader and grapple forks, frostbite, or my favorite a grapple stump bucket on front. With a PTO winch and trailer hitch on back. This is your skidder for whole tree operation, your loader for putting logs on the road truck or trailer, your trail builder and buncher for CTL style harvesting.
2- behind the tractor a forestry trailer with either an independant cable jammer loader, or a grapple loader with small winch.
You could do everything with that pair if the tractor is big enough. You could do whole tree skids to a landing and work them up with the tractor and load onto a truck or trailer with the front end loader. Or with a trailer, you could do CTL harvest in the woods where the tractor goes in first, builds loop trails that suit the trailer and skids wood to the trail edge perpendicular, bucked to length and in reach for the grapple to round it all up like a busdriver getting clusters of school kids. This is a gentler type of forestry as the main roads get less rutting, less tree scarring and the overall damage is dispersed over the entire stand so less localized impact than a landing and whole tree.
One challenge is sorting. No tree is made of the same quality logs top to bottom. Theres buttlogs, midgrade sawlogs and pallet/pulp/firewood tops. Its pretty easy to load all grades onto the forestry trailer and essentially bring out the whole tree without beating up your haul trail, but without a hydraulic grapple it is a pain to sort them at the landing. You could do it with forks or a frostbite but will need a big landing and many trips over it. Youll have a rutty mudhole pretty quick with little stub roads going to all the different piles on the landing and turn around clovers everywhere. The more sorts the more the landing sprawls out.
A cable jammer is not so great at unloading. It can do it but it cant push wood out like it can pull in so logs land right next to the trailer and pile up. Gravity tells a log where to land when a cable jammer unloads and that usually means piling up against the trailer tires on each side, wedging it in. Here ground is never flat and if it is its soup. So atleast one pile packs against your trailer and topples when you pull out. You cant back into that hole a second time so the landing sprawls more.
You only get 2 sorts with a jammer. Left side and right side. Cant unload to the rear and any spinning of logs is done by you one handed with your feet at risk of being crushed or ankle twisted between logs. Then the tongs jam between logs and you wrestle to free them each time, burning daylight and energy. A jammer is good at loading but one should plan to unload with a tractor FEL or skid steer.. Or not build a jammer.
A more efficient method with a FEL tractor pulling a cable jammer (the draw is how cheap and simple you can create one) is to get all your wood dragged up trailside and collect by grades. Make your loop and only get buttlogs out of the way. Now back at the landing unload the whole trailer with the tractor into one pile. Do not allow any wood in here that is going to a different mill. If youve got a pile of staves with one tie log in there either you have to bust your hump fishing it out or the stave mill will reject it and you lose money. Next pass you round up all the tie logs. Then all the pallet, then all the firewood. The thought you put into loading will make landing management so much better.
Right now i am skidding whole tree to a landing and working up with chainsaw into sorts with a 4wd articulated forkilift and it is horrible. Im making a mudpit which is continually shrinking the space i can use and not get stuck. Im turning around over and over on the same solid spots which is churning them to mush, burning fuel, wasting time. A grapple on a 4wd tractor FEL will be a lot better because its more compact and doesnt drop logs like my huge forks, but it will still be a similar struggle at the landing. My machine not running when its really cold and us not having a steady frostline are the next biggest issues for me. Either way a knuckleboom or log loader trailer would be the cure. Pull into a spot one time and stay still, make sort piles, back the trailer to it and load a whole pile. The landing will last a lot lot longer.
Ignorant neighbors look at my equipment and think there is a fortune to be made. They dont realize id have to spend all of the log money on loads of stone making a pad big enough to build a barn after im done, just to operate. Yeah they can kinda do the job in the simplest sense. Do it profitably? Not really.
Anyways.. Some food for thought before you make expenditures. Try real hard to think ahead to what type of problems each type of equipment will have. If i had to pay real money for manufactured stuff this education woulda ruined me. Everything worth having costs a fortune nowdays.
That was a great post Mike.
There are lots of options for moving logs or firewood. A lot depends on where your personal balance is for time spent vs $$ spent.
If you are doing much of this, you will definitely want a logging winch. Electric winches have their place, but they are really not the best choice for twitching logs out of the woods. Having worked for several years without one, I will never be without one again for as long as I continue to work in the woods. (As Mike mentioned, electric winches do have a place, but they are more suited to slow, precise work in short bursts - like operating a cable jammer or a DanG Deadhead Log Lifter.)
If you are doing firewood, your loading and transport may lend itself to cheaper options (cut to stove length and load into just about any trailer with sides, or even split in the woods right into your trailer). If you are trying to move long logs, you'll either need to skid them all the way out, or you'll need some method of lifting them to load and unload. Methods for accomplishing that range from relatively inexpensive (if you are good at scrounging and fabricating) on up to 10s of thousands of $ (buying a brand new forwarding trailer, for example).
Happy Birthday John,
Great day for it here in Vermont.
Quote from: 47sawdust on February 01, 2022, 11:36:23 AM
Happy Birthday John,
Great day for it here in Vermont.
It sure is! I am hoping to get up flying today now that the temperature is up out of the negatives or single digit positives.
The goal for now will just be to upgrade my ability to get thinnings out of dense blocks of timber if/when needed. Last winter for example, I cut hundreds of small stems out of hybrid larch blocks. I had to manually drag each out and toss in pile. My tractor could then easily pull ten or fifteen at a time up the lane where I was laying them. But that hand-dragging was tough to keep doing. That sort of thing.
I just need one of those 3-pt winches. Anyone think the Hudson to be worthy of consideration? Another issue is machine won't fit in shed if too much length added. These things reasonably easy to put on and take off?
Finally, when I really look at say, my white pine blocks, when first actual commercial thinning happens, I might be a guy in my 80s. Hey I'm fit as a fiddle but I have to be realistic. I might be contracting or some such. But for now and for some years hence, I can def see use of one of those winches. Thanks much all.
What are you describe is a textbook case for a Logging winch. So I think you are on the right track there.
They are easy to get on and off. When not in use, most have a little kickstand that holds them upright. You just back up to them, hook up the PTO drive shaft a three point hitch and you were ready to go. My lower three point arms will release and telescope out a little bit, which makes installation really simple: you don't have to be positioned perfectly to get those lower pins in. I do not have any sort of quick hitch adapters on my tractor, yet have no problem at all getting it on and off.
I own a Hudson 35E (it was the predecessor to their current 35M model. A good match for my size tractor). If I remember correctly, I've owned it about 11 or 12 years now. I've done nothing for maintenance other than grease it and occasionally adjust the clutch (all it takes for that is a large crescent wrench). Just a few weeks ago I did finally have to have some bearings replaced. Mine has been stored outside, uncovered its whole life. A couple of them rusted up to the point that they had to be replaced. I guess I'll do a better job of typing it from now on.
Excellent John, thank you sir. I've furthered this discussion in another old thread re winches.
Quote from: wisconsitom on February 01, 2022, 02:15:50 AM
Thanks one and all for a good bunch of info. On reflection, I've realized the item actually most needed now is winch. I do most of my felling and skidding in winter, which is usually favorable, just need better way to snake stuff out. All I do now is unfurl some cable with choker and then have to pull straight out which is obviously limiting.
Already looking at Farmi, Wallenstein, Hudson. Wouldn't mind pto, but someone said elec better. Probably don't need fanciest unit, just matched to my tractor. Not hitting the rear pocket too hard's always good 😊.
Electric is "better" than pto in a couple ways. It is usually cheaper, lighter and you can quickly swap it between vehicles if you set it up right.
But it has some huge down sides. It puts a large strain on your alternator and battery, and it heats up. With my homemade pto winch I can have the tractor at as low of an idle it will stay running at and pull all day long with with enough power to fold my tractor in half if I am not careful, and nothing gets dangerously warm. If you plan to do a lot of pulling with an electric winch you will spend a lot of time waiting for it to cool down. If you over size your winch so it doesn't over heat you will then be depending on your alternator, and battery, and wiring being able to handle the load.
With an electric winch you pretty much are relying on the weight of the vehicle in park to be enough resistance to pull your load in. With a pto winch you have the blade that bites in and allows you to pull much more than what the machine could do on its own.
Thanks Joe. Yeah, I see what's up with that now.
I purchased a used Metavic loader 1400 on an 18RF trailer. Intended for 70+hp tractors. Trailer is rated for 18,500 lbs. This is the first real test I've had with it in the snow and with my logging winch attached. I was curious if it would haul well with the hitch point further out from the tractor.
These are 10ft logs and the last of 3 loads I hauled of the 10footers. The first load I butted the logs against the bulkhead toward the tongue. With 500 bd-ft, the front of the tractor was very light and steered mostly with rear brakes. Last two loads I piled the logs further back to reduce tongue weight. This load is about 750 bd-ft and was able to steer with front tires. Then I wondered about traction going up hills toward the house. Spun a little in deeper snow when the trailer wheels plowed rather than rode on top, but made it without much difficulty.
I'm glad I don't need to take off the winch to use the loader trailer. I've put 16 ft logs on before. They sit much better on the trailer against the bulkhead with good weight distribution.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/58760/IMG_5326.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1643820398)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/58760/IMG_5329.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1643820397)
Awesome rig Pog. I'm officially jealous 🤣.
If I had to guess, you go out first without Metavic and yard your logs out into the clear, then hook up trailer n go get em?
Yes. This was all from blow-downs. I had just the winch on to drag stems to the roadside and cut them to length. Then went out with the trailer to collect them. 88 logs in all.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/58760/IMG_51905B15D.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1640400000)
A few, like this one, were already roadside.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/58760/IMG_51925B15D.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1640400102)
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/58760/IMG_51895B15D.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1640399953)
I've thought about leaving my trailer on and winching trees with that, but that puts my tractor 90deg to the pulling direction. Not sure about that. It's handy to position the tractor any way I need to in order to drag logs.
Trailer has winch too, huh?
@Mike Belben;. Thanks for the sentiments, and yes, a bit of fab could do for me now.
On that score though, while I'm not a big one for regrets in life, I sometimes ponder what might have happened if a few of those bass amplifiers, guitars, and speaker cabs had instead been welders, saws, tractors, that sort of thing😭.
Just like i wonder what coulda happened if i spent that welder money on a strat and grew out a skullet. I probably wouldnt be any poorer!
;D
Quote from: wisconsitom on February 02, 2022, 01:57:18 PMTrailer has winch too, huh?
No winch on the trailer, just the winch on the 3-point hitch. That's what I was referring to. I have not used the winch with the trailer attached, only without the trailer on. So far haven't needed to use it, but I could if necessary to drag a log that is just out of reach or whatever.
Good stuff Pog
Just had a bit of reality creep in when the Tajfun dealer got back to me with a quote. Ouch. Seems like major price jump from some listing on website.
Anyone think Uniforest is same or similar to above? Both Slovenia I think. At least on websites, these two clocked in lower cost than Farmi, Wallenstein, etc.
wisconcitom,
Check with these folks. They ship to U.S. and Canada.I'm happy with my Krpan.
https://picken.ca/
PoginyHill--nice rig! You definitely do not want to pull at 90° with your winch: at best, it will bend the rod of your 3 pt hitch (I welded mine back but it's not pretty :-\), at worst it could pull over the tractor.
Wisconcitom--have found that older, heavier tractors are often cheaper than compact ones. Go heavier if forwarding in the woods....My 70hp, 4wd 695 Case Int'l was $ 10K, the Forwarding Trailer $ 5K. Pretty cheap compared to compact tractors, and cheap insurance when pulling heavy loads. All the best, Rob.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13967/IMG_2656.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1605131448)
In this lifetime, it may be that I'm allowed but one tractor, and that will be the one I already have 😉. Not absolutely sure about that but I wouldn't doubt that if I'm still around in twenty years, I'll still be using the same tractor on my little patch. No worries.
@47sawdust (https://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=16307), I've reached out to the Krpan, er Pickens folks. Hopefully word from them will be easier to swallow. I'm thinking everybody's up a grand from their website listings. Hope to be wrong.
Just read a thread on tractorbynet-you're on there 47-where I learn that Uniforest, Krpan, and Tajfun are all Slovenian makes, and quite similar.
The Krpan 3.5 winch sells for $3200.00 delivered to your door. You unload
Pickens tollfree # is-888-529-1114
Quote from: 78NHTFY on February 03, 2022, 09:37:48 AM
PoginyHill--nice rig! You definitely do not want to pull at 90° with your winch: at best, it will bend the rod of your 3 pt hitch (I welded mine back but it's not pretty :-\), at worst it could pull over the tractor.
Wisconcitom--have found that older, heavier tractors are often cheaper than compact ones. Go heavier if forwarding in the woods....My 70hp, 4wd 695 Case Int'l was $ 10K, the Forwarding Trailer $ 5K. Pretty cheap compared to compact tractors, and cheap insurance when pulling heavy loads. All the best, Rob.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/13967/IMG_2656.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1605131448)
$5000 for that forwarding trailer is a steal! I kept my eyes open for years. I saw some in that price range, but they were junk: just about falling apart.
Tractor was quite the steal too!! :o :o
Quote from: 78NHTFY on February 03, 2022, 09:37:48 AMYou definitely do not want to pull at 90° with your winch: at best, it will bend the rod of your 3 pt hitch (I welded mine back but it's not pretty ), at worst it could pull over the tractor.
I've done some "minor" pulls at a pretty large angle (without the trailer attached) - It certainly can twist the hitch components if you're not careful. With the tongue weight of the trailer, I was thinking that would help keep the the winch planted. I certainly would not pull as aggressively at a sharp angle as I sometimes do from directly in the back.
Can you put snatch blocks on the left or right side of the headboard on your forwarder trailer and then pull safely with the tractor winch? I dont know how stout those trailer are? Maybe with a well full of wood to better anchor the trailer?
Swing the crane and anchor it into the dirt beyong the stabilizer or grab the but of a tree. Hang your snatch block on the elbow of the crane. Weld some tabs or whatever will work best on each side.
A couple great ideas. Thanks!
I've not had much reason so far to pull from the side, and not sure I ever will. But I'm thinking about it. Your ideas have me leaning heavier that way.
I do have a snatch block. The winch also came with a pulley to mount lower on the back to allow for some side pulling without the larger moment tending to tip the tractor or twist the 3-point mount. I have not use it.
The empty trailer and loader together weigh about 4,000 lbs. I'm guessing the tongue weight (the additional downward force on the winch) is about 1,000 lbs.
I will have to chew on your ideas some. Thanks again!
Aren't there winches up on the upper booms of some commercially available forwarding trailers? I could see that working if could be mounted such that it doesn't get banged up. Maybe sink the grapple in the ground for anchorage.
But yeah, redirect with blocks, good idea.
I've seen some with a winch on the boom. Metavic's winch option is mounted independent of the boom and the swivel pulley sits near the top of the back stop. I think the winch itself is mounted between the frame rails of the trailer body beneath the bed. If I were buying new, I would have considered that option. But since I can keep my 3-pt mounted winch on with the trailer, there is not need for me. Especially with some of the ideas mentioned here.
Yeah small hydraulic ones. Anyone can add one by mounting a zero turn wheel motor and rim with cable through an enlarged valvestem hole. Run a 6 port double selector valve off the landing gear leg to control it with a cylinder spool for hydraulic holding.
If you double what i just described you can have two winches for a mini skyline. Just make a little carriage. Yard to the trailer then take it down, reel in, load trailer and go.
There is some juggling to do on motor displacement to get a balance of line pull vs speed. The more GPM and PSI you have the more winch you get.
Backstory on my "cheap" forwarding trailer: owner inherited it from his brother; used it to feed his wood processor; broke down & had it repaired for beaucoup bucks; I came by & offered $ 5K; not interested he said; paid him another visit a year later with same offer; he hadn't used it in a year because a log he picked up started "helicoptering" above his head and he couldn't shut it off--problem in the valve body; he survived but had to change his underwear :D; agreed to sell because he wanted a new truck, so wrote him a check on the spot (had saved $2500 when 1st made offer; saved another $ 2500 in the year since--my bro said "you're so lucky" to have gotten it; actually, you make your own luck :)). Towed it home, saw a leak in the valve body; had a buddy (hydraulics pro) come over and replace one teeny itsy bitsy O-ring and all functions worked like a charm. Used it all summer. As it got cold, the slew turned hard. Buddy came over and we drained out water that had accumulated before I bought it and was freezing :(. I use the machine regularly and it's set next to my LT40 mill and gets all the off-cut slabs for easy disposal onto my slab pile. Make any repairs myself as/when o-rings, hydraulic lines go bad. Keep it greased and under cover. I doubt it even has 500 hours on it. All the best, Rob.
78NHTFY,
You seem to be surrounded by good help.Says something about the type of person you are no doubt.
That skidder looks great.
I experimented with a trailer and tried the snatch block idea. It actually worked pretty good with the 9 and 10 foot logs and the small 3000 lb capacity trailer I was working with.
(https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/21065/Fwdr1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1535540521)
I pull at an 90-ish angle using the lower pulley on my JP501 winch once in a while. Not at all a general practice. Last resort type of thing only. You just have to be reasonable about what you pull and keep an eye on what is happening. The top pulley is a definite no-no on my rig though.
gg