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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: Banjo picker on December 29, 2017, 12:01:20 PM

Title: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on December 29, 2017, 12:01:20 PM
Had a man bring in quite a few logs to saw.  Going to make boards and framing lumber out of them.  Put the first one on the mill and made about 4 cuts and the mill just died.  It was a nice big denim pine and the mill head is about 20 inches above the deck.  I start trouble shooting.  Seems to be the switch.  According to Cooks it is a 35327CAV.  I took it off and it does appear to be a Lucas 35327.  Cooks don't stock it.  He suggested I contact Perkins, which I did.  After giving the man at Perkins in Columbus Mississippi the serial number, the build number and taking pictures of the control panel and sending them to him, he told me that was supplied by Tradewinds .  He don't have the part either.  Said that was added after Perkins sold the engine.  I called one of the Tradewinds numbers, and the man took my information and then in about 15 minutes he called me back and said that their outfit was shut down untill Tuesday, Jan. 2 2018.  Oh well .  I have went by the local Carquest with several cross refrence numbers and called Napa as well as a Cat dealer in Tupelo Miss.  Cat ownes Perkins I am told.  They cant cross the number either.  I do a good bit of business on ebay, so I looked there.  You can find plenty of Lucas 35327 swithches there....but they are all in England, and it will take about 2 weeks to get here.  I ordered one, but I would like to get one before that. 

I tinkered around with it some after it quit, an got it to start, but as soon as I turned loose of the key, it died again.  Its almost like there is a kill switch gone haywire. (There are two in different places) ( it also has a bunch of tattle tale safety switches)  There was a terminal on this switch that broke off and makes me think it had a problem .... all the other terminals are good and solid ... you would have to be really trying to break one.  This one just basicly fell off.  Any one have a Lucas 35327 they want to sell? 

Here is the logs (about half of them) that I guess I will cut someday.  Banjo

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18028/20171227_165448.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514564394) 

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18028/20171227_135721.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514564459)
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: pine on December 29, 2017, 12:13:00 PM
It is frustrating when things like you describe happen. 
I think it is becoming more common as manufacturers do not maintain their supply lines as they once did. 
I fear that it will only get worse the way things are changing in the supply business.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: ladylake on December 29, 2017, 12:30:45 PM
 They use that type of switch on some agriculture equipment and lawn mowers.  Steve
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Peter Drouin on December 29, 2017, 12:44:02 PM
Nice wood, Too bad about the switch, ladylake has a good point,
Tell us more about the truck in the first pix. ;D
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: moodnacreek on December 29, 2017, 01:08:57 PM
Love hydraulics, hate electric.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on December 29, 2017, 02:00:53 PM
Pine you sure got the frustrating part right.  One thing that really got me wound up was that the switch I took off has no part number on it.  You know what that means... someone bought a box car load of them from a land far far away, and I don't mean England.   ;D  Then after I got the number from Cooks, its pass the buck time.  We didn't put it on....We didn't put it on...

Steve, This switch has 7 pins on it, and the wiring inside the control box where the switch is is loaded with an abundance of wires that go to different places and other switches, so I can't take a chance with something a little different.  The PM I got showed six...so I am scared of it.  It might work, but I cant take a chance.

I do like the hydraulics, but right now the mill is 20 inches up above the bed and I can't get it down until I can get the mill to at least run for a minute or two.   :(  Its already pretty tall, and  I had just started on a nice sized log when it quit.  You could probably rig an electric to come back down to earth.

Peter the truck is a 1957 Chevy.  It belongs to a friend of mine from North Dakota, who can't take the cold anymore.  This is his second winter to spend here on the place.  He pulls the Chevy here inside a 53 ft trailer with a tiny car on top of the bed of the Chevy.  The pull truck is a 1960 KW.  And it looks pretty sharp too.  I wonder if he brought all this cold weather down here with him.  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Hilltop366 on December 29, 2017, 02:37:59 PM
Seems like some of these switches are not built heavy enough for the load put on them.

Had the same problem with my tractor once, it would run on the start position but when the key was let go to the run position it would stop.

I took the switch apart and it had plastic that had melted over the contact from over heating so I scraped the plastic off and used the switch until the new one came.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on December 29, 2017, 02:47:07 PM
Thats an idea, but this little booger is pressed together in 4 different places with a pretty good indention in each one.  If I try to get it apart to look inside i will probably bust it, and I need it for a pattern to hook up the new one with.  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Hilltop366 on December 29, 2017, 02:52:17 PM
Mine has a pigtail with a plug on the end so it was easy to replace as far as wiring goes.

I use to draw wire locations out for reassembly when repairing things, now I will take a few pictures before taking things apart.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on December 29, 2017, 02:55:09 PM
I did both. :D  I got to loose the book and my phone to mess up.  Not that I am not capable.  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: alanh on December 29, 2017, 02:59:09 PM
Can`t help with the switch but was taken by the truck pic, heres mine..

 (https://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/18098/57.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1514577510)
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: 47sawdust on December 29, 2017, 03:07:27 PM
From the sound of it ,might be time to buy 2 switches.Most of my equipment is old and I've taken to doing just that,within reason.
Good story about your friend from North Dakota.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Hilltop366 on December 29, 2017, 03:19:22 PM
Quote from: Banjo picker on December 29, 2017, 02:55:09 PM
I did both. :D  I got to loose the book and my phone to mess up.  Not that I am not capable.  Banjo

Haha, probably not a bad plan.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on December 29, 2017, 03:41:13 PM
That is a very sharp truck you got there.  Vehicles back then had soul.  You could see one coming a quarter of a mile away and know what it was.  Now I need to be 20 feet away to even find my wife's kia.  It looks like a multitude of other small cars.  Its good they have come up with all the weird paint colors, its the only way to tell the difference sometimes.

I will be on the look out for another switch.  I keep a list of items that I could use a spare of for the mill and when I get a chance to pick one up at a bargain. I put it my box at the mill.  I got a relay and a woodward solenoid on the list to go with it.  I keep a small supply of toggle switches and such as well on hand.  Things that I have found will go out and are hard to find in Iuka Mississippi.  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Kbeitz on December 29, 2017, 06:01:44 PM

LUCAS 128SA 35327 KEY SWITCH

https://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/779
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Oliver05262 on December 29, 2017, 09:26:17 PM
Lucas; now there's part of the problem. Joe Lucas, the prince of darkness. Here's a sample of the wit and wisdom concerning Lucas electrical thingamabobbery.
http://www.mossmotoring.com/prince-darkness-joseph-lucas/
and there's more. Just do a Google search.

Get home before dark.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: starmac on December 29, 2017, 10:29:36 PM
It kind of sucks that they would use a switch that is not common and do not stock it either, but I guess that is just business anymore.

On a side note, what does your friend use the truck in the frst pic for?
I have a very similar truck, GMC short nose with a 453 Detroit for power.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Alyeska Pete on December 30, 2017, 08:28:06 AM
If you follow Kbeitz's link to Lucas you will find a detailed wiring diagram of the terminal layout. Should not take long to jump around the bad terminal. Depending on which one is bad, you can add a SPST or a momentary on switch externally until your new one arrives.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: mike_belben on December 30, 2017, 09:30:13 AM
Does this thing use any contactors or PLC's? 

It sounds like a contactor losing its hold voltage, the way it turns on and kicks out when you let off key.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on December 30, 2017, 02:52:36 PM
Thanks for the responses so far.

Kbetiz: I have ordered a switch just like that one you have pictured.  Question for any who can help,  What does the Piercing C F mean on the diagram Kbetiz had on his post?  I think I have the rest of it figured out.

As to Lucas having a bad name....not much you can do about it, as they just about have the market corned on some things.  Seems they might have been on the receiving end of some bad jokes.  I had an MG once and the main thing that it gave trouble with was the hydraulic slave cylinder on the clutch not the electrical, which I would think had a lot of Lucas stuff in.

As to the 57 Chevy truck... I think its kind of like the sawmill in the weeds that the owner just cant part with.  He did use it to pull a trailer that had all his handy man tools in... now he just cranks it up and drives it a little to keep it limbered up.  I haven't seen that he has a real need for it, but don't we all have a few things like that?

Pete, I think you have an AC 36, so you know how many wires are in that control box.  If I had pretty weather and the time, I might give it a try to try and do some by passing.  But after today there is not going to be any decent sawing weather for a week or so at least.  Supposed to be about 11 degrees here Tuesday morning, and cold all week.  My southern blood just can't handle that. 

Mike I can't answer your question cause I just don't know.  Its just a switch with contacts in it or so I would think.  Kbetiz has a picture of the back of the switch in the link of his post. 

Thanks for your interest, I will let you know how things go.  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: JB Griffin on December 30, 2017, 05:30:31 PM
Banjo, sounds like your gonna have a heat wave, monday morning it's supposed to be 1. :(
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: starmac on December 30, 2017, 06:02:44 PM
Well at this point, I hope it is your switch, some ignition systems have a power source when cranking and another for when the starter kicks out, which is not controlled by the switch itself.
I still think there are plenty of generic off the shelf ignition switches in use, that the engineers did not have to use one that was not a common item for this application.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on December 30, 2017, 06:19:02 PM
JB. I just cant hardly imagine the cold some of these forestry forum members are having to deal with.  I have enough wood at the house to last some of these guys maybe 4 days.  I have an insert that I bought when I first built the house 30 + years ago and it does a fine job for here.  But I cant imagine burning a half cord a day....even if they are talking about a face cord.

Starmac I hope it is the switch as well.  That would fix the problem pretty quick...if I could get my hands on the switch.  :(  I totally agree with the "why use this exact switch"?  If I were more of an electrician, I might be confident enough to try something else, but I am not.  I can see how I could jump a hot wire to the solenoid of the injection pump and alternator then jump the starter, but I dont understand how two kill switches and a circuit breaker come into play as well as two switches that will shut the engine down if the oil pressure is low or the temp is too high.  I don't know if the rpm meter is hooked up to the tateltale switch or not.  There is a whole bunch of wires in that control box.   :o  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: JB Griffin on December 30, 2017, 08:55:46 PM
Is the throttle electronic?  I wish I could help more but a electrician I ain't.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Peter Drouin on December 31, 2017, 07:48:38 AM
Banjo, It's -5°F here this morning 75°F+ in the house.
I use 2/ 2½ wheelbarrels fill with wood a day in this cold, Not too bad.
The thing with the cold is the birds and wildlife. I'm feeding 2x a day till it gets up to +20°F
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: starmac on December 31, 2017, 03:23:40 PM
I didn't realize you had the oil and water kill switches. It is quite possible one of those is the culprit.

One one of my trucks the low water switch went bad, it would start and run a couple of seconds then die, I unplugged it and it would run then.
A couple of years later I had a hose go bad and had a service truck bring out 10 gallons of water, he only brought out 5, so I had t unplug it to get on back to their shop.
I have seen the oil pressure switches go bad on Honda motors a couple of times too, they would run if you unplug them also, I don't know how yours is set up though.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on December 31, 2017, 05:11:48 PM
JB the throttle is electronic.  The mill runs at an idle untill you flip a switch that sends power to a solenoid that opens the throttle. 

Peter that don't sound too bad for the temps you are having.  On another thread some of the members have said they were burning half a cord a day.  That would keep you busy.

Starmac the reason I have zoned in on the ignition switch is because one of the blades on the switch broke off with very little resistance.  That could very well mean it had been getting too hot, and even with the bypasss button pressed in when you let go of the switch the motor dies.  (You have to hold the bypass button in untill the oil pressure get high enough to get by the cut off point.)  If the by pass button  that controls the main tatletale switch was not working it would not crank at all even for just a few seconds.  If I am missing something somebody please straighten me out.  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Meadows Miller on January 01, 2018, 01:56:22 AM
Gday Tim sorry to hear about the switch drama  if I was in Australia they are very common her  I have a couple of them in boxes. If its the ignition barrel which it sounds like we have bypassed (bush rigged ) them with toggle switch for axcilluary power and and a button for the starter

Regards Chris
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: starmac on January 01, 2018, 05:35:13 AM
Nope, it sounds like you are on the right track.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on January 01, 2018, 08:40:56 AM
Good to hear from you Chris,  I won't get caught like this again. ;) I'll have an extra also.  I am just not much of an electrician I guess.  Most things are easy to get usually with the internet and all, but that switch seems to be as rare as a white elephant on this side of the pond.  The temp. here is 12 degrees this morning, I wouldn't saw if it would crank. ;D Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Den-Den on January 01, 2018, 08:54:34 AM
You might try Tractor Supply, they have a few ignition switches.  Perhaps one of them would work for you.  Be aware that while ignition switches seem simple, they are not all the same.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on January 15, 2018, 12:15:13 PM
Its been over two weeks since I ordered the switches from England and still nothing.  I ordered from two separate suppliers to give myself a better shot of getting it sooner.  Neither one supplied a tracking number, so I have no idea where they might be.  Out of frustration I started looking again this morning, and I call the Tradewinds company (different office) and this time a lady gave me a number of another Tradewinds office in Florida and the parts man there (Wayne) was very helpful.  He had the Lucas switch and I ordered it form him.  I'll probably have 3 show up at the same time.  I just wish I could have been directed to him the first time I got in touch with the company in December.  I have also had another customer bring in another load of logs while I wasn't there.  I think I know who it was but I'll have to call and see.  I got to get this mill running, and soon.  If anyone is running a Cooks with the Perkins that has the Tradewinds control board, the Miami Florida office is the one to call for help when you get in a bind, because Cooks don't stock those parts.  :(  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: starmac on January 16, 2018, 02:02:44 AM
What a train wreck for such a should be common part. You would think cooks would at least have a line on where to get them QUICK.
I guess you can look at the bright side, you now know where some parts are located.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: paul case on January 16, 2018, 10:26:38 AM
I think they could easily fix you up with a current production switch and a pigtail on it to get from what you have to the new switch. Cooks saw are smart enough to figure that out.

PC
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on January 16, 2018, 09:22:17 PM
I got one of the ones I ordered from England in this evening.  Only thing is; its going to be a nice balmy     6 degrees in the morning  :D I think someone forgot to tell the cold air this is Mississippi and it aint supposed to be here.  I have never tried to saw frozen logs before.  Don't really relish the idea either.  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Hilltop366 on January 16, 2018, 09:30:18 PM
Well the good news is the logs won't degrade much in the cold either!
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on January 17, 2018, 08:15:47 PM
I put the switch on this morning after is warmed up a bit, bled it since I changed the fuel filter and after I hooked the dodge with two new batteries on it to the mill, she fired up and I ran it the rest of the day.  The sawing really wasn't that bad after I got all the wiring done. This was by far the coldest I have ever run it.  The customer has been pretty patience up till now so I am trying to get his logs sawed.   I am going to put a heavy tarp over the mill first thing in the morning and put a heater under it to help warm things up a bit before I start.  Supposed to be about 11 degrees in the morning.  Still got a good bit of snow on the froze ground.  It will be a real mess when it thaws. Thanks for listening to my ramblings.  :D  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Magicman on January 17, 2018, 09:53:30 PM
Hooray Tim !!!  I was hoping that you would be back sawing with that new switch.  I know that you breathed easier when everything clicked.   smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on January 18, 2018, 11:08:14 PM
You got that right Lynn.  I run it pretty good today and got a good bit done.  The customer that had brought most of the logs show up and was please with the results, so that was good.  But its easy to cut pretty lumber when you got nice logs and his are for the most part.  I got another switch in today  :D  I still got one more coming; I was just about in a 9 line bind.  I am gona cut the old switch open when I get time and see what was going on inside of it.  Inquiring minds want to know.  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: starmac on January 19, 2018, 12:31:19 AM
Well hopefully you now have a lifetime supply.
I would take a continuity tester and one of the new ones and make a diagram of what does what, so you could easily work around it with off the shelf parts if you ever needed to.
At the very least it would give you something else besides the new switches to put up to never be found again.
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: paul case on January 19, 2018, 06:54:04 AM
The new one you installed may last forever, or as long as you can lay hands on that spare!

Glad you are up and running again.

PC
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Peter Drouin on January 19, 2018, 06:12:52 PM
Good to go now,  8) 8)
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Darrel on January 19, 2018, 07:46:55 PM
The vacation is over.  :)
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Banjo picker on January 19, 2018, 08:50:47 PM
Yes I got er going, and found out it will crank very well at about 11 degrees and to my surprise its not really that bad with enough clothing on.  The other switch came in from England today and I got them in a box in my closet with small mill parts.  So I have two spares.  Banjo
Title: Re: Logs to saw but can't saw em. Need switch.
Post by: Darrel on January 19, 2018, 09:47:18 PM
You've got that right about wearing enough clothes.  I dress in multiple layers with insulated bibs and a warm work coat on the outside. Makes sawing at -20 F quite comfortable. January has been quite warm here. Got our first snow of the year today but still soft mud under it. Hopefully the mud will freeze this weekend and I can get back to sawing. Have my mill parked in a customers field mud bogg and can't even get to it without getting stuck to the axels.