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General Forestry => Sawmills and Milling => Topic started by: glendaler on May 30, 2018, 03:24:52 PM

Title: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 30, 2018, 03:24:52 PM
I figure I've made enough headway on my build to start a thread if anyone cares to follow my progress. It's a Belsaw A14, 1940's-ish I think.

This was the way I bought the sawmill, I didn't even know it was there, only about a km from my shop.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3451.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1525968720)
 
That rotten old bed has since been cut up into tiny pieces to go to the wood scrap pile after stripping the important bits off.

This is what the carriage started out like:
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3450.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1525460591)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3449.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1525460577)
 

It's since been completely disassembled:
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3465.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1527707156)
 

Then every piece is getting sandblasted:
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3466.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1527707150)
 

Then I make whatever repairs are necessary to each piece, and then they get painted:
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3462.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1527707130)
 

Getting there: 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3467.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1527707163)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 30, 2018, 03:30:10 PM
I own and operate a diesel engine rebuilding business so I looked through my cores and selected a 3.152 Perkins diesel to rebuild and power the mill. The engine will be transplanted into my Cockshutt 540 tractor, which will run the mill off it's PTO.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3468.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1527707174)
 

The blade is a 44", 26 tooth, has #3 shanks. It seems to be in very good shape, probably worth more than I paid for the whole mill.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3459.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1525977900)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: millwright on May 30, 2018, 03:59:05 PM
Looks like a fun project
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 30, 2018, 08:05:22 PM
Thanks millright, i'm enjoying it. 

I'm building the bed to the original specs with locally rough sawn hemlock I'm planing myself. I've got 2 legs built so far:

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_1793.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1527725051)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: TimGA on May 30, 2018, 08:57:02 PM
Nice, can't wait to see finished.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Don P on May 30, 2018, 09:43:12 PM
Looking good 8)
Are you going put any bracing in those? The mill takes some healthy lateral whacks when you roll on and turn logs.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: ddcuning on June 01, 2018, 04:35:20 PM
Looks like you are doing a good job on the restoration. Keep the pictures coming so we can see how it is going.

Dave C
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: hedgerow on June 01, 2018, 07:52:06 PM
+2 on kept the pictures coming. I love to see old equipment come back to life and not get junked.  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: DMcCoy on June 01, 2018, 08:05:08 PM
Looks like mine when I bought it right down to the color of the paint.  Wow, brings back memories.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on June 02, 2018, 03:35:46 PM
Thanks guys, I'll keep the pictures coming. There will be some kind of bracing to the legs but i'm not sure what exactly yet.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Coolrunner on June 08, 2018, 12:24:30 PM
Great work so far.  A couple years ago, I put a Belsaw on a bus frame.  It works quite well and I've sawn some good lumber.  I built it to saw out big timbers for my barn repairs and recently sawed some black spruce 10" X 10" X 14' sills.  The biggest drawback is the short carriage.  When sawing the last boards, they tend to push or pull into the saw, depending on the internal stresses.  I really need a third dog to steady the cant at the tail end.  With larger squared timbers, there's no issue.  Great mill for 8 to 12' logs although I wouldn't want to try to make a living with it.  Keep up the progress postings and maybe I'll become inspired to do the same. 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on June 08, 2018, 08:37:46 PM
Runner, its possible to attach two Belsaw carriages together if you can find another. A fella with some metalworking skill should be able to extend his carriage and fabricate a headblock or two for the long timbers. Frank C.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Flyingpig on June 08, 2018, 08:50:00 PM
Funny you say that Frank, my parts mill has a three knee carriage someone did exactly that with. We are thinking of adding one of the knees off of it to our runner for exactly the reason mentioned above.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on June 09, 2018, 08:08:44 PM
Once I'm up and running I'll have to see if a third dog would help. One of the big jobs I have in mind is turning a couple hundred poorly spaced spruce into boards. They barely average 10" diameter so I'm not sure if that will make them flimsy and prone to movement or not.

Progress has been boring lately, just more blasting and painting so no pics. I have a few repairs to make to a few pieces so i'll get some pics as I go. One of the next things to tackle is most of the axles for the carriage rollers are severely worn. My plan is to get some 9/16 drill rod, machine the grease holes and then harden before final installation. The bushings in the rollers seem good, the axles must be very soft. Planed the rest of my leg material but no other progress there yet. Pics and progress to come this week.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Flyingpig on June 09, 2018, 10:59:29 PM
We just rebuilt our carriage axles. We just used grade 8 bolts and made press fit bushings for the wheels, I think they are 1045 or something. Just a bit harder than the bolts anyways. That way you just replace the bolt. Fast and easy. Plus you are booting through the carriage rails which are mild too and they do pound out from chatter. Id rather let the bolt wear. We had to poor mans line bore ours by welding some hardened washers to ours because a few of the holes were 1/2 out of round ha ha
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on June 11, 2018, 10:06:15 AM
I'd like to be able to grease everything so I think I'll machine the axles rather than bolts.

The pawl for the ratchet wheel had quite a bit of wear and roundness so i was worried it might slip on the teeth:

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3472.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528725562)
 

So off to the welder to add some metal:



 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3477.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528725642)
 

Then to the lathe to turn down the outside:  


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3478.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528725642)
 

Next comes the milling machine to do the flat:


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3479.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528725671)
 

Now we're back to nice keen edges on both sides, and the weld is probably a little more durable than the original metal


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3480.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528725652)


Seems like a lot of work but now is the time to do it if it's going to get done.  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on June 11, 2018, 10:10:25 AM
Someone couldn't get the setscrew out at some point so they had it pretty buggered trying to get it out. Too hard to drill so drill and tap a new hole:

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3475.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528725608)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/103_3476.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1528725632)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Don P on June 11, 2018, 08:46:44 PM
That pawl is a wear item we should probably team up and have a run of them made. I have I think 3, the one on the mill is about ready to be welded and ground, If I hold my mouth just right it grabs most of the time, the other two have been welded once and then worn down again.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on June 12, 2018, 06:54:13 AM
It's not overly complicated of a piece, be a good project for someone's first cnc project at a trade school. That's the only cost effective way people get odd things made around here. In a way I'm glad yours doesn't grab all the time, now I know it was worth doing. :)
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Flyingpig on June 12, 2018, 08:07:00 AM
We drilled the bolts and tapped for a 1/8 fitting. Only three lathe operations and they are ready for use.

That setworks pawl will give a bit of trouble if they are worn. We wound up trading ours out for the one off the parts mill too.

Looking good!
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on June 12, 2018, 09:06:26 AM
Ah, I wrongly assumed you just threw a bolt in. Did you select a long bolt to get enough shank to go through the whole axle holder and cut off the extra thread?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Coolrunner on June 12, 2018, 11:39:28 AM
I need the pawl repair too.  Mine slips if I try to go too fast or if sawdust has collected in the teeth.  BTW, I have been looking for another mill for the carriage parts to extend mine.  Otherwise I may build one.  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Flyingpig on June 13, 2018, 08:06:48 PM
Ya we were looking for whatever would be the easiest to switch out down the road with the lowest downtime. We did use longer bolts and trimmed the threads back.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on June 13, 2018, 09:39:12 PM
When I had a Bellsaw I put the reach rod in a 't' tube so you could twist it and rigged up a toggle and lever to the pawl. This rig is still working to day. It was just a bunch of junk brazed together and the pawl lasted much longer.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on June 15, 2018, 08:22:22 AM
That's an interesting idea. What do you attribute the longer wear to? Were you turning the handle to disengage the pawl on the return strokes so it wasn't dragging on the ratchet wheel? Any pics?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on June 15, 2018, 01:06:26 PM
Glendalerl, yes, lifting the pawl at times.  Also put the feed outboard. There has to be a way to make a better setworks, ofte tthought about doing something with a large rachet  wrench.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Babylon519 on June 15, 2018, 01:41:40 PM
That pawl is a wear item we should probably team up and have a run of them made. I have I think 3, the one on the mill is about ready to be welded and ground, If I hold my mouth just right it grabs most of the time, the other two have been welded once and then worn down again.
x2. Mine is pretty rounded too. Add me to the order!
- Jason
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 02, 2019, 07:52:17 PM
10 month time gap but there's more progress lately, gathering some momentum. After thinking long and hard about my plans, I changed from the 10 ft carriage, 30 ft bed with six legs to saw 14 ft lumber to the standard 6 ft carriage, 18 ft bed with 4 legs to saw 10ft lumber. Less material, less hardware, less walking, smaller footprint, smaller building, and the only time I've needed longer than 10ft lumber was to build this sawmill. More progress to come very soon.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2737.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1554248201)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on April 03, 2019, 02:10:14 AM
Thanks for returning, was wondering about your progress.  Your frame looks good.  I think you made the right decision for keeping your mill that size.  My M-24 has a 16 carriage, 3 headblocks  and it came with a 48" blade.  Its just a hobby mill for me, thank goodness, and I thought it would handle bigger logs than it can.  I can't imagine what the engineers at Belsaw were thinking.  Sixteen feet of extremely light carriage, a 1.75" arbor, a 48" saw, a 6" flat belt for prime power.  Let's get real.  But anyway, I am learning a lot and I think I can make my mill meet my meager needs.  Keep us posted on your progress, you have a real old timer there and your work is beautiful.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on April 03, 2019, 03:28:22 PM
very interested keep up the pics
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Hilltop366 on April 03, 2019, 03:47:42 PM
 popcorn_smiley 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 03, 2019, 07:05:37 PM
Watch out for the set wheel getting loose on the shaft. Back before lock tite  I slit mine and welded steel bars in the spoke area, drilled and thru bolted to shrink on shaft like a john deere 2 cyl. Still tight to this day.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on April 03, 2019, 09:05:26 PM
I think half the circle sawyers in this country got their start on Belsaws. Two of my friends ran Belsaws and I learned to run a mill with their instructions. Frank C.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 04, 2019, 10:35:57 AM
Thanks guys, the carriage is on the second floor of my shop and the lighting is terrible but here it is. Needs some more paint but 90% done.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_3626.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1554388330)
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on April 04, 2019, 11:43:08 AM
looking good it will be well worth the effort
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Babylon519 on April 04, 2019, 12:29:34 PM
Needs some more paint but 90% done.
:)
International Red?
- Jason
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 04, 2019, 01:49:14 PM
Ford red actually.

End plates and top plates on, arbor notches cut, feed works sitting near where they'll be.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2767.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1554400113)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2768.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1554400111)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 04, 2019, 07:21:07 PM
You are doing a beautiful job but are you going to use those plain bearings? I hope not.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 06, 2019, 04:02:59 AM
You are doing a beautiful job but are you going to use those plain bearings? I hope not.
I sure am.
Gotta use whatever time you can find so I picked up an LED tripod work light, 8400 lumens. Got the carriage bolts into the legs through the beams so the structure is officially done. Bringing the arbor to work with me to move the pulley in my press to line up with the tensioner properly. Hoping to have arbor, feedworks and tensioner mounted up this weekend.

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2771.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1554537696)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on April 06, 2019, 06:46:48 AM
Glen, I hope in your country you can still get creosote or other effective wood protector, that frame is just too pretty to succumb to the ravages of rot. The later B'saws used flange type pillow block bearings that were a big improvement over the Babbitt, you could retrofit if need be. Frank C.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on April 06, 2019, 07:38:56 AM
As long as the babbitt bearings are in good shape and properly maintained the will do a good job and last a long time 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 06, 2019, 07:54:24 AM
I understand it was done that way [even by me] but on machines that have sat always seem to have a rough shaft.   Ball bearings work so good on a light mill and run very cool and no oil can in one hand will sawing and watching for other problems.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 06, 2019, 08:23:05 AM
The shaft is still nicely polished and will be oiled properly. Part of what I do for a living is grind crankshafts so I have quite a bit of knowledge in this area. I'd like to keep it original because if I was going to put ball bearings on it, I might as well machine myself a bigger diameter shaft, then I might as well switch it all over to v-belts, or hydraulic feed, make a better carriage, etc, etc. I'm bad for snowballing projects and instead of ending up with a simple product I have a half done complex one and quit. The major point is to saw wood with an old mill and have fun while doing it. There's a local babbitt expert that does all the old model A engines in this part of the country so I could get them redone too.

Glen, I hope in your country you can still get creosote or other effective wood protector, that frame is just too pretty to succumb to the ravages of rot. The later B'saws used flange type pillow block bearings that were a big improvement over the Babbitt, you could retrofit if need be. Frank C.
One of the first things on the list is a building for this thing because I agree, I have alot of time and energy and pride now in this frame. I've been on the search for a fallen barn to salvage the steel roofing from but I think people have scooped most of it up.

Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 06, 2019, 07:07:06 PM
Got the feedworks installed, I was a little wide so had to take the brace off and pull in with a clamp. Got the arbor installed. Put the front bolts in first, then put the blade on to make sure it was square or a bit of lead with the bolts in the middle of the slots before drilling the back holes. Extremely close to square up and down as well but will have to wait for the carriage for final adjustment there. Ready for the belt tensioner but the previous owner must have had the feedworks closer to the arbor than me, the belt's too short. Some other belts came with the mill I'll have to check lengths.



(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2773.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1554591941)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2775.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1554591930)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 06, 2019, 08:09:38 PM
Glendaler, I understand you keeping it original . Surprised you found it in good enough condition to just polish. As I use old sawmill equipment almost full time, I couldn't wait to get rid of babbit and so I passed my feelings to you but I respect what you are doing.  We have an automotive machine shop 2 miles from here and they weld up and grind cranks, there are very few of these shops left. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on April 06, 2019, 10:23:51 PM
You are going to have a great mill and it will be fun to use. And it will make a great product for you to use. Just rememder you are working with wood so a 1/16 to an 1/8 inch is ok. I have a friend that is a millwright and when we built his house he started trying to make every thing to a 100 thousand. but he finilly figured it out. The big thing is just have fun and enjoy
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 07, 2019, 01:19:27 PM
Thanks.

Yeah I have to guard against that alot. Anytime I get into a carpentry project the machinist part of my brain goes nuts. I was surprised at the variance from some local places I sourced wood for this mill from though. That's what high production gets you I guess, and if it's going to be planed after I guess you only have to be so good. But if I can't get better than what they're putting out I'm chopping this thing up for firewood.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 07, 2019, 01:22:46 PM
In the original instructions from Belsaw in the 1930's it says to set the carriage up so it travels about 1/2" from the blade. Is this normal and what holds true today? I'd like it as close as possible to have support for the last board with a spacer board behind. Would 1/4" be so close that the blade might hit it if it wobbles?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 07, 2019, 03:53:03 PM
1/2" is standard. Any closer could cost you the teeth and show you a ring of fire in a minor wreck. The saw guide should prevent this if is stout enough. If you touch the wood being sawn or drop a shingle , from a damaged log, between the log and the saw it will heat fast and send the rim [teeth] from side to side mostly towards the carriage and if sawing, saw a curve, again into the carriage if it can.    Always wear eye protection when sawing. I got knocked out once. Even more important; never let anything fall between the saw and the spreader and if you see this starting to happen, get over to the side fast because it's coming at your face.     Getting the lead right and the filing of the teeth is critical. The teeth must be filed straight across and have equal corners also the hook angle like new teeth.      Keep us posted.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 07, 2019, 06:22:24 PM
All good advice, thanks. One thing I noticed in the countless videos I've been watching is people make a nice big table right along side the blade to catch the boards but they tend to stay standing up on this table instead of falling over onto it, so they sit there rubbing the blade, or small pieces get caught between the saw and the table. I plan to have nothing at all next to the outside of the blade to stay away from this and just have a couple angle pieces so the cut pieces fall well clear of the blade.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on April 08, 2019, 07:35:17 AM
Consistency on what comes off the mill is what we strive for and as nice a product as possible. I'm sure you will be cutting nice boards in no time 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 08, 2019, 08:26:25 AM
Glendaler, You want a table and a handrail for safety, only take one slip or fall. Put some kind of hook on a stick and lay it on this table and use it to pull the slivers, bark, etc. so as not to heat the saw. The problem with the table is when you work on the saw [filing]. it won't let you stand. You also need room for sawdust.  This low spot or pit is easy to slide into, another reason for table and rail.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 14, 2019, 08:22:30 AM
Not much progress lately, we're getting a late blast of winter weather here that's slowing things down. I've set the end of the month as a finish goal so there will be updates soon.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 17, 2019, 07:24:04 AM
Blade guide with stainless hardware and new pegs.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_3629.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555500220)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Crusarius on April 17, 2019, 12:22:04 PM
for my led worklights I bought a bunch of 12" led light bars from amazon they cost $20 for a pair. Now I either hook them to a PC power supply to power them or I hook them straight to a battery. cheapest and best worklight I have ever had. when I drop something on them its not a huge loss.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on April 17, 2019, 03:11:22 PM
Glendaler
My 40" saw is at the saw doc's right now.  I am having a fair share of difficulty saw accurately so I am eliminating the possibilities one by one.  He asked me what I was sawing and when I said spruce he said it was one of the most difficult woods to saw and that using 9/32" teeth could be most of my problem.    He said he was changing out the 9/32 teeth to 10/32 or maybe even 11/32 depending.  Apparently spruce needs a lot of clearance because it's "springy".  I am sure you have a lot of spruce there.
Because you are a machinist I would like to know what is the acceptable run out on an arbor.  I put a dial indicator on mine and found there was .006" runout.  Could this cause me trouble?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 17, 2019, 09:04:45 PM
A lot of guys have trouble sawing spruce. I have sawn spruce from day one because often it's the only soft wood I can get. [got a truck load yesterday, more on the way]. Now there is woods grown spruce, fresh, that's the best. then there is open grown, big knots, wavy grain, and if it's been laying around, even worse. From some wood lots comes curved butt spruce, good luck with that. Anyhow the saw teeth must be wide and sharp because it saws hairy and around the big knots it may raise the grain so bad you have to stop and go or saw very slow which is never good. Chrome teeth seem to help and I wonder about chrome shanks. Sometime you will hit 3 knots at once and the saw will try to go around them. A 2 1/2 style saw is best. Wet logs are better also. Deep cuts [big logs] are a test for you and if dry even more so.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 18, 2019, 05:36:43 AM
The first logs I have lined up are spruce, and lots of it. I was going to try and get away with the teeth on the saw to start with but your advice makes sense to me, so I've ordered a box of teeth, 5/16. The ones on the saw are quite worn and narrow.

Trapper, tolerances are extremely specific to application so I'm not sure I'm qualified to speak to sawmill tolerances just yet, but first of all where exactly are you dialing to get that .006"?

*Edit: I couldn't find it the first time I looked but after some more searching through "Circular Sawmills and their Efficient Operation" I found where they say if you dial the fast collar and it deviates more than .002"-.003" it needs to be machined.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 18, 2019, 07:45:34 AM
Because the bellsaw mandrel has no pin drive you can 'clock' the saw and tighten the nut and spin it and check the wobble at the guide pins. The idea is to oppose the wobble in the saw with the wobble in the collar. [no dirt, rust, sawdust]. You can also try paper rings on the collars stuck on with oil. I always wipe oil on the collars when the saw is off or going back on. Otherwise the collars must be re cut with the proper taper. .006 with a small dia. saw may work ok.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on April 19, 2019, 07:03:46 PM
Glendaler, I measured the .006" near the center of the arbor.   I just put the indicator on the fixed collar and found .003" runout.  I also did the procedure where you hand tighten the arbor nut then move your guide pins next to the saw and then fully tighten the nut.  I am happy to report I did not see any movement of the saw at the guide pins.  
I have the same belt feed as you and I could not use the stock 12" pulley to power the live shaft, way too fast.  I went to a 18" pulley and it works better for me.  But I have to keep the feed belt tight and I still throw the belt and have tracking problems.  I am gathering the components for hydraulic feed.  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on April 19, 2019, 07:09:01 PM
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0419~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555715191)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 19, 2019, 07:47:58 PM
Hyd. feed. I have pondered that for my mill [It has friction and belt gig]. I think if you chain a hydrolic motor to the feed shaft that operates at a fast return [gig[ that is the fast speed you want, then through the motor spool valve the feed flow goes through a flow control valve that you adjust. Could it be that simple?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: luap on April 19, 2019, 09:37:44 PM

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0419~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555715191)

when you rotate the mandrel as shown and you get a reading of .003, that is total indicator axial runout. Actual runout is half that. So you need to know what runout is being specified. When you measure radial runout between the bearings it doesn't really tell you what you need to know because placement of the bearings will change that. In a perfect world there should be zero runout. Keep in mind It's not the space shuttle. .003 tir should be good.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: luap on April 19, 2019, 10:23:20 PM
Hyd. feed. I have pondered that for my mill [It has friction and belt gig]. I think if you chain a hydrolic motor to the feed shaft that operates at a fast return [gig[ that is the fast speed you want, then through the motor spool valve the feed flow goes through a flow control valve that you adjust. Could it be that simple?
That is essentially what I put on my American #1 but reverse from your description. Hydraulic motor is direct coupled to carriage feed. Open center control valve appox 8 gal per min. Output direct connection to feed rotation. Return flow for gig back goes through adjustable flow valve. So when sawing the valve is feathered to adjust rate of feed. On gig back valve is held fully back with speed controlled by setting on adjustable valve. you can still feather return rate but max speed is restricted by adjustable valve
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on April 20, 2019, 01:46:13 AM
Thanks for clarifying the difference between indicator runout and actual runout and the difference between axial and radial runout.  I am trying to get my head around the hydraulics.  So the flow valve is placed in the gig back line and only limits the maximum flow in that line?
Here is what I plan to work with.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0421~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555738443)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0420~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555737914)
 
The pump and motor came out of a scissors lift.  The pump (cant find model number) was direct powered by a 4 cylinder gas engine and the motor is 15 gpm and 353rpm.  The valve came out of a forklift so I assume it will not work because it is not a motor spool.  (Besides it has too many fittings!) 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 20, 2019, 04:56:35 AM
I could not use the stock 12" pulley to power the live shaft, way too fast.

I have a 20" pulley on mine, the previous owner made a wooden one about 16" to run faster. I'm glad to know you have a 12" because I wasn't sure where on the scale I was but I'm obviously on the slow end which is fine with me. I'm waiting for my belt to come now. With the smaller pulley they were running, the belts that came with the machine are too short and I can't find a way to rework the geometry I'd be happy with to use the shorter belts. In the mean time I've got my pulleys mounted and cable run, just have to pick up clamps for the cable. Guide rails are on and the carriage is on. 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 20, 2019, 08:43:24 AM
Laup, thanks for that post.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on April 20, 2019, 09:45:54 AM
I like setting up and maintaining and upgrading my mill almost as much as sawing with it.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on April 20, 2019, 12:43:00 PM
Luap, so if I my motor is 15gpm I should get a 15gpm open center motor spool valve and a 15gpm adjustable flow valve?  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 20, 2019, 12:48:47 PM
I like setting up and maintaining and upgrading my mill almost as much as sawing with it.
So do I but I buy logs and logs spoil. Sawing and stacking all the time these days. Looking forward to making a pantograph and getting hydraulic lines too carriage to power set works.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 20, 2019, 01:01:25 PM
Glendaler, The best way to power a bellsaw [with an engine] is to mount the engine on a skid that is too wide so you can put an elevated shaft, on pillow blocks, parallel to the engine and Vee belted to it at the ratio needed. Use pick up truck sized drive shaft, slip joints, yokes, etc. to connect to mandrel.  A lot of work but trust me, well worth it.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 20, 2019, 05:41:32 PM
So far I like the idea of not having another engine to maintain and just pulling up with the tractor when I want to mill. But if I do run a motor it will be how you described.

Guide rails are on, carriage is on and cables run but needs fine tuning. Blade guides are on. PTO adapter made and on. Waiting on feed belt and have to figure out the splitter.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/IMG_20190420_181633.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1555796461)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 20, 2019, 06:28:07 PM
Lookin good. A tractor pto accomplishes the same advantages such as no belt pull [overhung load] and so much easier to play with the lead. But be careful when you shut down as the nut that holds the blade can unscrew . Your tractor pto must coast slowly to a stop.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 20, 2019, 07:06:47 PM
Just tried the PTO shaft I made actually. Nice and smooth and when I popped the PTO out of gear the blade free-spun for quite a while.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: luap on April 20, 2019, 07:37:00 PM
Laup, thanks for that post.
I need to clarify my hydraulic feed post. There are different types of flow control valves and what I use technically is more of an adjustable orifice than a flow control valve. I am restricting the flow in a circuit or a loop that goes from valve to motor back to valve. So it can be on either the in or the out side of the motor which would be forward or reverse and restricts the flow in the complete loop regardless of direction of flow of oil... The valve it self is a high pressure needle valve rated at 3000 #psi and is adjusted by trial and error. The  valve is on the reverse side because that was the location I could easily reach during setup. my goal was to  control max return speed without paying strict attention to what I was doing with the control lever. There is a sweet spot that it is more than fast enough sawing and fast enough on the return.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 20, 2019, 08:09:25 PM
Laup, ok, thanks again. The flow control that I have used on other projects is the excess return flow to tank [open center].  There must be a dozen ways to power a shaft, forward/reverse , variable speed, stop/start etc. not to mention closed center or hydrostatic, all to much for me.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: luap on April 20, 2019, 09:05:52 PM
Thanks for clarifying the difference between indicator runout and actual runout and the difference between axial and radial runout.  I am trying to get my head around the hydraulics.  So the flow valve is placed in the gig back line and only limits the maximum flow in that line?
Here is what I plan to work with.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0421~1.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555738443)
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0420~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555737914)
 
The pump and motor came out of a scissors lift.  The pump (cant find model number) was direct powered by a 4 cylinder gas engine and the motor is 15 gpm and 353rpm.  The valve came out of a forklift so I assume it will not work because it is not a motor spool.  (Besides it has too many fittings!)
The motor looks heavy duty. Any motor that has same size fittings can also be used as a pump. Your valve has the power beyond port tapped into and would need the right sleeve put back in to use that as a single valve. A valve doesn't care what it sends the oil to but it matters when it is in neutral. That is a pretty good size single stage pump. You will not have the problem of not enough flow.
I tried to clarify my flow control arrangement in response to moondacreek. My flow control restricts flow in complete circuit. not just the return side. There are flow dividers that will do that but more to buy.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: luap on April 20, 2019, 09:40:07 PM
Luap, so if I my motor is 15gpm I should get a 15gpm open center motor spool valve and a 15gpm adjustable flow valve?  
It basically comes down to choosing the motor with the most torque at your chosen gpm. You best indication of this is slowest rpm at rated flow. And your chosen 15gpm open center valve and 15 gpm flow valve would be good. In the case of driving a carriage you could undersize the spool valve because you would never be  using max. flow. I am only a seat of the pants backyard builder who knows less today than I did yesterday.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Don P on April 21, 2019, 07:51:44 AM
Looking at the pic, is your stick in the way of loading the carriage? Mine is behind the leg, just in front of the blade.
My splitter is just a vertical knife on 2 threaded rods so it can be adjusted with nuts in and out and tipped to align with the cut, but I think the rolling disc type probably work better.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on April 21, 2019, 08:04:41 AM
Very perceptive donp, it is in the way but the handle is removeable. I don't often see these belsaws with the short 18ft bed and 6ft carriage like I'm building and I'm finding out that things are cramped. Now that I'm used to seeing mine I realize most of the ones you see online are people that have very long beds and carriages sawing short wood so everything looks very roomy. I think it's going to efficient to have everything almost within arms reach. Things are getting exciting now that I've had the blade spinning.

How many turns of cable should there be on the feed drum? It's 1/4" cable and I have 5 wraps on now.

Is there a torque for the arbor nut? I put a pipe wrench on it and wacked it with a hammer.

How thick should the splitter be in relation to blade thickness? The higher the splitter the better?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 21, 2019, 09:53:51 AM
Very perceptive donp, it is in the way but the handle is removeable. I don't often see these belsaws with the short 18ft bed and 6ft carriage like I'm building and I'm finding out that things are cramped. Now that I'm used to seeing mine I realize most of the ones you see online are people that have very long beds and carriages sawing short wood so everything looks very roomy. I think it's going to efficient to have everything almost within arms reach. Things are getting exciting now that I've had the blade spinning.

How many turns of cable should there be on the feed drum? It's 1/4" cable and I have 5 wraps on now.

Is there a torque for the arbor nut? I put a pipe wrench on it and wacked it with a hammer.

How thick should the splitter be in relation to blade thickness? The higher the splitter the better?
5 wraps or 4. If not enough it will slip on a big log. With a wrench length 1/2 the dia. of saw blade, arm strength only, no hammer. [actually self tightening] Splitter: straight edged to log side of blade + a hair more so cant doesn't hit it.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on April 21, 2019, 01:51:07 PM
Thanks again Luap, you explain things clearly and quite helpful.  So that valve could work if I make it open center with a sleeve?  Or should I just order a $150 motor spool valve from Surplus Center?
Glendaler, the Belsaw manual says 3 turns but I don't think it makes much difference.  I have 5 or so wraps and the extra has come in handy when I am playing with carriage hookup.  
Here is my scale, I did not like the sliding weight scale, kept hanging up.  This one doesn't lie.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0422~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555867763)
 I was having a hard time with my 48" B-9 saw with 9/32" teeth especially with frozen logs.  Just quit cutting.  I decided to try another 48" saw that came with my Corinth.  This saw is a different beast, D-7 with 5/16 teeth.  I had my doubts when I brought it up to speed because it chattered badly even with plenty of daylight at the guides, but once in a log it calmed down and got to work.  I am back to sawing.  
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0423.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555868801)
 again.  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 21, 2019, 02:53:32 PM
Trapper, I have never seen a D style, how many teeth? [I do have a 4 1/2 style in 52"x 30 tooth]
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 21, 2019, 03:11:17 PM
Glendaler, forgot to say that the splitter should be thicker than the blade, 3/8" I believe . On the height it gets tricky. For safety it should be high and curved and close say 1" from teeth. But then you can't put on a larger saw. And the other thing is that if you saw oversized logs they get stuck on the splitter. You may want to grind a taper on the upper part, that's what I did. The splitter must wedge the slab or board away from the saw but not touch the cant. Sometimes a thin tapered slab will shut and go on the inside of the splitter, not good, this is why the splitter should be close to the saw. So you see there is no perfect splitter. The old round ones are really dangerous.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on April 21, 2019, 09:19:45 PM
Moodnacreek, that saw has 36 teeth.  It's interesting that B, D, and F all take the same teeth.  I have another saw, an 44", 40t,
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0410_28129~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555895898)
 3-8 and I found the old Simonds shanks are not replaced with new Simonds shanks. But the dealer did have some old shanks labeled HOPPE and I will try them soon.  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 22, 2019, 07:22:14 AM
Trapper, sounds like you got some old saws to play with, me to. Those style 3 shanks you need could be oversize, not std. For the postage I could send you any style 3 shanks from my collection.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: luap on April 22, 2019, 12:35:50 PM
Thanks again Luap, you explain things clearly and quite helpful.  So that valve could work if I make it open center with a sleeve?  Or should I just order a $150 motor spool valve from Surplus Center?
Glendaler, the Belsaw manual says 3 turns but I don't think it makes much difference.  I have 5 or so wraps and the extra has come in handy when I am playing with carriage hookup.  
Here is my scale, I did not like the sliding weight scale, kept hanging up.  This one doesn't lie.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0422~0.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555867763)
 I was having a hard time with my 48" B-9 saw with 9/32" teeth especially with frozen logs.  Just quit cutting.  I decided to try another 48" saw that came with my Corinth.  This saw is a different beast, D-7 with 5/16 teeth.  I had my doubts when I brought it up to speed because it chattered badly even with plenty of daylight at the guides, but once in a log it calmed down and got to work.  I am back to sawing.  
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/16156/DSCF0423.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1555868801)
 again.  
No, the plug with sleeve would just close the power beyond port. The open center vs closed center is the difference of design on the internal spool. The power beyond feature allows you to add another valve downstream to control another function. I would buy a new valve and save your existing one in case you  add something in the future.If you did plug the pyb port with the right plug, you could hook up the valve and test it to find out if open vs closed. Those plugs have a short sleeve with an oring  so might not be easy finding the correct one. alternatively you could connect a line to the as is pyb fitting to your return line to tank and make the other normal in, return line connections and connect the working ports to your hyd motor. With open center you should be able to rotate the hyd motor with lever in neutral position. You could do this without hydraulic pump running but the system would have to be charged with oil. It may take some leverage to turn it but it will turn if open center. closed center will not turn. Used hydraulic components can be a gamble but can save money vs buying new.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on April 23, 2019, 03:02:30 AM
Thanks again Luap, sounds easier to just buy a new valve.  What is the definition of a motor spool valve?  Is it simply any valve that controls a motor or is it more specific?
Moodnacreek, the new Simonds shank on the left in that photo is called a small v while the shank on the right is what is in my saw and is the regular.  The Hoppe shanks the dealer sent me (at no charge) are the right ones and I tried the saw today.  So far this 44" saw has worked better than the 48 inchers I have been using.  Maybe has something to do with smaller diameter or maybe its better tensioned for my application.  In any case the 9/32 teeth are doing fine.  Why do you think your 2 1/2 tooth style works good in spruce?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on April 23, 2019, 07:21:56 AM
Trapper, 2 1/2 style is small gullet/more teeth. More teeth=more power needed. The reason for more teeth is that the closer the teeth are the straighter the saw will cut. Course tooth saw [what you would use on a bellsaw] dodge the knots and other nasty spots in the log as fine tooth have another tooth close behind before things get out of hand. Out of the 5 saws I have, an old hoe in 2 1/2 is my favorite, better than my new payne. On small to medium sized knotty logs, feeding fast, a 2 1/2 is good. The all around favorite today is the F saw . In my beloved 2 1/2 I have obsolete winter shanks and regular chrome teeth, 9/32. 5/16, if you have power may be better in spruce.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: luap on April 23, 2019, 09:50:11 AM
Thanks again Luap, sounds easier to just buy a new valve.  What is the definition of a motor spool valve?  Is it simply any valve that controls a motor or is it more specific?
Moodnacreek, the new Simonds shank on the left in that photo is called a small v while the shank on the right is what is in my saw and is the regular.  The Hoppe shanks the dealer sent me (at no charge) are the right ones and I tried the saw today.  So far this 44" saw has worked better than the 48 inchers I have been using.  Maybe has something to do with smaller diameter or maybe its better tensioned for my application.  In any case the 9/32 teeth are doing fine.  Why do you think your 2 1/2 tooth style works good in spruce?
Motor spool valve : work ports connected to tank in neutral,
cylinder spool valve: work ports blocked in neutral.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 07, 2019, 08:16:15 PM
Well, a year later and I finally made sawdust. Theres a long way to go yet but my feed belt came and there was enough in place to give it a go. My first piece is less than 1/8" variation so I'm optimistic. Dark now so pics later.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 08, 2019, 08:03:55 AM
Good to hear. At this point it is about the minimum lead and keeping the saw cold.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 08, 2019, 06:32:53 PM
So far that's just the initial lead I set up when I installed the saw, will have to check again. Splitter and carriage scale are next.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2791.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1557354502)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2793.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1557354491)
 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2792.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1557354490)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 08, 2019, 06:43:31 PM
Cute, that's a better feed than the newer bellsaws.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on May 08, 2019, 07:55:10 PM
Creeker, what's dangerous about round splitters.?? I've been blissfully milling for years, unaware of pending disaster. Frank C.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 08, 2019, 09:24:06 PM
On a round splitter you have 2 semi circle humps; the rolling splitter and the saw and they form a valley. Any piece of slab , a broken place on the log, etc. that falls in that spot is a blur coming for your face. A knife splitter, close to the saw is safer and the banana splitter the safest of all. The rear of a circle saw [and the top] is what launches stuff at you.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on May 11, 2019, 03:31:26 PM
Real nice job. l like the compact size of it that would be a good size to take to shows. My splitter is  1/4" 5" wide and 24" tall plate ground to knife edge front back and top mounted about 2" behind the saw with 3 AL thread for adjustment so it can be canted at an angle to help open up the cut
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 11, 2019, 06:29:42 PM
Thanks, I did think it would be pretty easy to move if it was on skids and just pull it up onto a trailer, but one thing at a time. I did get my splitter on, mounted it with 5/8" fine thread bolts for adjustment. I cut 9 4x4's (3.5 actually) so far, I have cutting one those out of a 6" log down to a science now. Can't believe how quick it can be done. I put a 12" log up and it showed all of my flaws though. 

-I replaced the feed drive belt but not the feed belt within the feedworks, its rotten and broke
-My carriage is too close to the blade and the bigger log with some funky grain pulled the blade over enough to nick the carriage.
-The bed needs to be braced and supported better in a couple spots, I can see it moving at times
-The slot in my guide wheels is too wide compared to my guides, thought I could get away with it but it's probably another reason the blade was able to touch the carriage. I'll be machining new wheels.
-Somebody dropped something once or probably repeatedly (heavy logs) on the carriage so it's low in the center forcing both ends up a bit. I thought the weight of the log would push it down but its allowing the carriage to teeter-totter a bit so the log shudders up and down.
-The feed drive belt wont seem to track properly either, it stays on but is 1/2" to one side. I really don't want to ruin that new very expensive belt.
-I forgot about guide rail scrapers/brushes on the carriage so I started getting a build up of compacted chips on the track right away. Trying to cut in a fine mist of rain doesn't help.

All this will have to wait a bit, in addition to building a sawmill I've decided to make hay for the first time this year so just as last month was dedicated to the sawmill, this month is dedicated to hay gear. I'll update as I go for those interested though.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 11, 2019, 06:55:51 PM
 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2807.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1557615198)

 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2805.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1557615203)
 

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2806.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1557615200)

 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2810.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1557615184)

 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2808.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1557615193)

 
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_2809.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1557615187)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 11, 2019, 09:34:48 PM
Glendaler, I don't think you can keep the carriage flat, mine was cambered so that the center missed the track unless loaded in the center. Also dogging logs can spring the carriage. Did we talk about the cable pulleys? From them then cable must pull straight to the carriage on both ends or the side play will be forced one way[carriage rollers] This is important. The off bear skids should be plated solid. You have gone this far but the finishing details always take forever. Hope you get some dry weather, good luck haying, I miss doing that.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 12, 2019, 06:15:43 AM
I'd be fine with up in the center, at least it wouldn't teeter. I was pretty painstaking with the pulley setup, they're pulling as straight as possible. Those off bearing skids are meant to be plated in, I can see how a slab could sag and get jammed up on the far one. The don't say the devil's in the details for nothing. I can't really understand why the belt wont track. The arbor pulley has a nice amount of taper and it's tracking nice and straight, just off center as you can see in the pics.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 12, 2019, 09:59:05 AM
A mistake I have made with used flat belting was cutting a wide one into a narrower width. To do this you cut strips off both sides to keep the original center. Can you flip the belt? Can one pulley be moved in or out?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: luap on May 12, 2019, 10:49:55 AM
Glendaler, getting that belt to track properly is no different than a snowmobile track, conveyor belt, or a sandpaper belt. One drum on one end has to be adjustable to be angled that essentially makes one edge of the belt tighter and the belt will move over to the opposite side. In your case the driving pulley is in the same plane as the saw so moving that one will affect your lead. Don't know what your options are there.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on May 12, 2019, 01:59:41 PM
Glendaler,  I have noticed the idler (rider) pulley has a major effect on tracking.  It must be 90 degrees from the belt axis.  I had the same trouble but a lot worse but as soon as I changed the angle on the rider, no more problem.  However my rider was much closer to the driven pulley.    My 16' carriage  had a high corner on one end.  I simply made a cut into the bottom of the carriage where the angle started and bent it into plane.  A weld and my carriage was straight.  Plastic strips on your carriage will greatly assist the sliding of cants when setting.  I have noticed that the amount of force needed to set a cant is directly related to inaccuracy of the lumber.  Just the nature of a Belsaw I think.  If I am within 1/8 " making lumber, I am happy.  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on May 13, 2019, 06:25:50 AM
Logs, especially heavy ones, should not be flipped on the belsaw carriage you must follow their directions and make log turners to save the pounding on the mill. The turners are flip up wedges that take the brunt of the impact of logs/cants flipping. Frank C.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 13, 2019, 07:45:20 AM
After closer inspection I think trapper has my solution, I'm going to shim the top of the idler bracket and I think it should push it inward. As you say luap, everything is already lined up so changing angles of shafts is a no go. Log turners will be in place before the big logs go on frank.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 13, 2019, 08:16:55 AM
Glendaler, some day you could make 45 degree hinged wedges that you flip up. They get bolted to the log deck skids at the carriage. They should have 'skate wheels' on them. Some of the old time sawmill makers offered them. The last pair I saw where marked Lane . I didn't consider your idler on the flat belt. They are very touchy.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on May 13, 2019, 06:30:30 PM
The wedges I have on my current mill I used heavy truck brake shoe cam rollers. You flip them up and pull the log/cant towards you it lands on the incline and slides right back on the carriage with 1/4 turn. Mine are mounted on top of two deeply berried sections of phone pole so theirs no shock on any part of the mill. My first mill used 3/4" round stock welded to the top of the wedges, worked as good as the rollers. Frank C. 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 14, 2019, 03:19:24 PM
I've seen the roller types but thought the narrow contact surface would dent the big log when it comes falling down. Am I over thinking it?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on May 14, 2019, 03:30:19 PM
I use wooden wedges surfaced with uhmw plastic and the logs slide OK.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 14, 2019, 06:54:18 PM
Glendaler, You can't worry about that. If you where doing something very special you would spike the cant hook at the end of the log/cant and do as much as possible with you hands, not use the carriage if rusty etc.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 17, 2019, 07:20:32 PM
New bits finally came, should help quite a bit.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/IMG_20190517_201453.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1558135103)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 19, 2019, 07:29:55 PM
Taking a break from working on hay gear, mocking up the brow. The saw side will hinge but the far side will be solid, 3x3 i-beam, all mounted on pressure treated posts pounded in. Still have to fabricate the hinge and lots of bracing.


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/IMG_20190519_195355.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1558308250)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on May 20, 2019, 09:14:19 AM
Looks like you are well on your way. want a great project. And I see you are getting a little dust in you vains along the way.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on May 20, 2019, 06:45:44 PM
People are coming out of the woodwork with there belsaws and I love it. Keep these post rollen
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 21, 2019, 05:54:24 PM
Yeah they're popping up all over the place! I got the brow beams all welded and mounted, just needs bracing and log turners. I ordered a belt splicing vise which should be in tomorrow and I can fix my feed belt. Back to some sawing after that's fixed, I'm trying to get the lumber sawed to start on the mill building.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 22, 2019, 02:24:32 PM
And now to try splicing a belt for the first time... 


(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/49926/100_3633.JPG?easyrotate_cache=1558546156)
 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on May 22, 2019, 08:42:39 PM
Glen, I have a clipper lacer just like yours. When you cut the belting be extra sure its square and aligned in the lacer. Frank C.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 23, 2019, 05:53:13 AM
I used a square when I cut the belt and was very fussy with the setup and it went perfectly. Except I was too cautious with the length and it was too long, maxed out the feed lever and was still slipping. Shortened it but it seems like this old belt is made of something stretchier than the new one I got, I think it's about as good as it's going to get.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 25, 2019, 02:48:36 PM
Well I'm about 200bf in and I've made a few observations. The feed control handle needs to come out 4-6" at least, it's rubbing along the log when taking a wide cut and even got jammed up in a knot trying to go by, and it puts me too inline with the blade. Also I thought the dogs I had were superior to the newer style and I was very wrong. At least that's been the case with the small logs I've been milling. I can see me making my own dogs.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on May 25, 2019, 09:05:15 PM
Modifications are an ongoing part of a sawmill. live and learn my friend
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 25, 2019, 10:23:11 PM
Dogs are tricky. The only dogs I have used that really hold in any wood are the screw dogs. They would never work on a Bell saw, too much force. You need side lever dogs that drive the spike and hold at the same time and are operated with one hand. Good luck .
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on May 26, 2019, 05:08:20 PM
as long as you get a good grip about 1/4" penetration that should hold the log if then the dogs slip you have an alinement problem or you are trying to feed it to fast. each tooth should be taking 1/16" per revolution, wide logs you have to take less small logs you can take a little more. you just have to get a feel for your mill and know how it sounds. that is why even a fully auto mill still needs a sawyer  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 26, 2019, 05:48:11 PM
Maybe I should have not said that because if you had under hooks a screw dog would not force the head block up.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Trapper John on May 26, 2019, 08:16:57 PM
I am depressed when I set my dogs and the knee  flops from side to side.  Something is just not right in my mind.  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 26, 2019, 08:52:02 PM
I don't have a problem with the holding power of the dogs, it's more so the lack of position adjustment. I don't recall a single log so far where the dog position was perfect. I know you might say nothing is ever perfect, but in every case a dog with slide in and out adjustment would have let me make it perfect. I'm not just being picky either, it causes some practical problems when my only position choices makes the log want to roll as it's being cut. It's just another thing I get to modify and figure out. If I get to the point where everything is perfect it wont be any fun anymore.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Don P on May 26, 2019, 10:28:38 PM
On the initial cut especially you do need to be able to move the dog in or out to secure it. By the third side I usually have them slid back in. When someone is backhanding me I really have to watch their dogging till they get the hang of it.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on May 27, 2019, 07:12:12 AM
Its very important on a Belsaw mill to have a smooth level track, otherwise the log or cant will tend to shift and pull away from the dogs. Heavy duty stiff carriages will tend to average out minor imperfections in the track, light Belsaw carriages will react to each. Proper lead is important as too much will pull the cant away from the last dog as the carriage rattles down the track. Many sawyers have the habit of setting the dogs into the log whacking them with a cant hook, it works but adds extra steps. Really the only time you should need to heavily dog a log is when its in the round and not stable on the carriage. Stability can be aided by chalking the log with wedges or pieces of sticking. Frank C.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 28, 2019, 08:40:48 PM
Early on in my research I found an old Belsaw manual with a basic getting started making lumber guide. It talked about how you can tell a poor sawyer by how hard he dogs his wood, talking about how if everything is operating properly you should hardly even need dogs until the end, sometimes just one lightly holding for the initial cut, that stuck with me. I know my setup isn't good enough to follow this advice exactly but it's getting there.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on May 29, 2019, 01:04:29 AM
I see now what you are saying about the dogs. I went back and looked at your pictures and I seen you only have 2 positions either in or out that would be a pain.  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Don P on May 29, 2019, 07:17:48 AM
And then there are drop dog mills, the dogs just drop into the log and there is no "clamp". There isn't much force when the mill is sawing right. I measured out to my stick the other day, it is 30" out from the track.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on May 29, 2019, 07:50:18 PM
When I set up my current mill I used two screw dogs but seldom use both. Most dogging problems arise when the log is in the round. Once you have flats agents the knees and head blocks very little dogging is needed. Heavy dogging makes it harder to set the cant over. Theirs nothing more pleasing than a well adjusted mill with a sharp saw and good logs. Frank C.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 29, 2019, 08:07:01 PM
Frank, getting off the subject but did you know [ha ha] that lane made a Dixie special sawmill that had every ready dogs [ like American etc.] because south of here they would not accept our beloved screw dogs. This mill also had to have belt feed. I think that at the time they had better logs than us in the north because after 1900 everything was cut off in the N.E.  Oh yeah, do you have a sawyers favorite on your Chase?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on May 30, 2019, 01:32:00 AM
If you can't find the dogs you want you could build a set Trapper John (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?action=profile;u=6156) Has some great pictures of the dogs on his mill and Ill try and get some pictures of the ones some one made for mine.     
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 30, 2019, 03:36:07 AM
Trapper johns are the type I want to make. The infinite in out adjustment of them is what I'm looking for. 

DonP, by far the most popular mill in this province is the locally produced Oxford mill, and every one I've seen has the drop dogs. Are you saying your feed lever is 30" away from the front face of the bed?

Yes Frank all my gripes are from the round log stage, the current dogs are decent after that, until the last cuts because they stick out so far. I know a board can be put behind but again, room for improvement.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Don P on May 30, 2019, 05:59:04 AM
Quote
Are you saying your feed lever is 30" away from the front face of the bed?
Yes, I saw a couple of posts back you were talking about moving yours out, I was sawing the other day and stuck the tape on it. That seems to put me in a good place, one step back, grab the crowd and pull, but I can easily lean in and sight or reach in and adjust if I need to.  It is mounted just outside of the blade guard.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on May 30, 2019, 07:09:26 AM
Creeker, I had a sawyers favorite but it was a sorry critter worn out, welded, brazed and patched. I much prefer the rugged simplicity of the Lane screw dogs. Different parts of the country sawyers want different things. Some areas you can't find right hand mills. Up here in the northeast right hand mills predominate as well as head blocks on a set beam (not to be confused with Jim Beam) Frank C.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 30, 2019, 07:38:43 AM
Bandmiller, Do you still have the worn out sawyers favorite?              I load my log deck with a log picker off the old log truck and consequently the small ends are to the saw. So with the s.f. I dog and taper [and under hook] right there. The big disadvantage is that I have to undog to turn the log where as with the screw dogs it can be automatic when using a log turner.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on May 30, 2019, 09:10:36 AM
There are all kinds of dogs I just seen a video of a hammer dog on an auto mill it was air powered it just swung into the log to hold it. So I would have to say what ever works best for your set up.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on May 30, 2019, 10:42:06 AM
Quote
Are you saying your feed lever is 30" away from the front face of the bed?
Yes, I saw a couple of posts back you were talking about moving yours out, I was sawing the other day and stuck the tape on it. That seems to put me in a good place, one step back, grab the crowd and pull, but I can easily lean in and sight or reach in and adjust if I need to.  It is mounted just outside of the blade guard.
wow, mine is practically flush with the bed, the only reason it sticks out the 2-3" it does is because the handle is bent out. I have a few ideas to get it out at least 6" or more. 
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: bandmiller2 on May 30, 2019, 08:26:52 PM
Creeker that sawyers favorite departed 15 years ago on a load of scrap iron, sorry mate. Frank C.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: moodnacreek on May 31, 2019, 08:01:15 AM
Darn, I herd your place was nice and neat unlike here. Thanks for the reply, Doug
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on June 03, 2019, 09:57:22 AM
every time I take a load of scrap I end up needing something I got read of
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on June 16, 2019, 10:07:44 AM
Here's the the homemade dogs looks like they would be easy to make.
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19672/20190615_212647.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1560649338)
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19672/20190615_212653.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1560649330)
(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/19672/20190615_212702.jpg?easyrotate_cache=1560649215)
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on June 17, 2019, 05:53:01 PM
Thats very similar to what I hope to build. Looks fairly simple.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: J R Bradshaw on June 17, 2019, 09:44:48 PM
I just got ahold of a Belsaw M-14 in fare shape just need new carriage wheels to rusty to even measure. Can anyone give me measurements on m-14 carriage wheels.  
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: Don P on June 17, 2019, 10:19:59 PM
Don't have them off the bat but will be pulling a couple of mine on the blade side for bearing replacement as soon as I have time. I'll measure them unless someone posts first. The bearings in my wheels are these I believe;
https://www.amazon.com/Koyo-B-912-Bearing-Complement-Rotational/dp/B007EDXD5U (https://www.amazon.com/Koyo-B-912-Bearing-Complement-Rotational/dp/B007EDXD5U)

I'm down to one pair of the "bushings" that go in the wheels on each side of the bearings, sort of a lipped washer that locates the bearing and takes the side slop out of the wheel to carriage mount.  With 10 wheels I'll need 20 of them for a full set of replacements. I imagine this is a machine shop job, I'm wondering if there is a need out there, should we gang up on a run?
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on June 18, 2019, 09:51:09 AM
I have 2 different sets of guide wheel one is about 5/8" and are bushed and the other is about 1 3/8" with bearings I need to replace the smaller 5/8" ones. Been trying to find what options are out there. Worst case I can make them.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: glendaler on June 18, 2019, 02:09:44 PM
Mine just have the bushings, I just looked through my spare washer drawer until I found the right combos for minimal side play.
Title: Re: Belsaw build
Post by: jimparamedic on June 18, 2019, 06:20:36 PM
My wheels are what are warn. The guide wheels so need to replace them