The Forestry Forum

General Forestry => Tree, Plant and Wood I.D. => Topic started by: jayfed on July 24, 2006, 09:47:48 PM

Title: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: jayfed on July 24, 2006, 09:47:48 PM
Below is a photo of a non-woody plant that is beginning to get a bit carried away with the available space on the farm. There are now three small colonies on the farm. It seems to be a partial to fuller shade species.

It has also been found at another small farm in town this year.

The plant height is about three feet with a speading canopy. The pic shows one of the smooth 'branches' and the easily pulled 'root' section of the main bole.  The sap is milky. 

The leaf veins are parallel.  The leaves are a darker green, opposite and the upper stems are a purplish rust color. Leaf backside is gritty, not hairy. Leaf steams hollow.

Flowers are very small white and light pink with the pink predominate. This pic happens to be the one plant which seems to have seed pods(?) coming off seperate stems by the flowers.

Actually attractive overall.  A dime is placed in the photo.

One local business gardener thought it might be a euraisian honeysuckle. I am clueless.

I am concern as to the potential serious of this plant taking over all the other weeds/ flowers that are 'native'. The woods grasses might be in trouble, too.

[float=right]                                (http://www.forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12928/Invasive%20Farm%20Plant%2C%20Flower%2C%20seed%20pod%2CXcrop%2C0706.jpg)[/float]


Thanks for any help any of you might send this way.
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species
Post by: SwampDonkey on July 25, 2006, 02:03:40 PM
Does yours branch out some like this?

(http://www.forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/plant1a.jpg)


(http://www.forestryforum.com/images/03_21_04/plant1b.jpg)

I was trying to ID this and kinda come close with butterfly pea, but I'm having doughts.

I gotta go take a quick stroll up on the woodlot to console my live plant archives. If it's what I got here, it ain't a foreign invasive. I will have an answer on the id of my plant today hopefully. ;D
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species
Post by: SwampDonkey on July 25, 2006, 03:00:34 PM
Ok the main twig of my plant branches out and leaves are dark green and parrallel veined. The flowers are bell shaped and pink in color from pink-striping. Flowers are terminal or in leave axils. Mine are almost past flowering now. I think we have the same plant.


I believe it to be spreading dogbane Apocynum androsaemifolium. Plant is poisonous, but has been used in indian remedies and the plant has shown antitumour activity. Believed to be poisonous to cattle and the milky sap can cause rash is very sensitive individuals.
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species
Post by: jayfed on July 25, 2006, 10:58:12 PM
Yepper, it's the spreading dogbane!   Time for eradication with some brush killer before I have to rename this farm "Dogbane Farm".

Thanks muchly guys.  Seems like a person will always find an answer at this forum in one fashion or another.

Looks like there are three thunderstorms stacked-up to the west of here on the radar.  Storm named "F3" should be here in about 20 minutes, so It's time to pull the wall plugs and phone lines.  The phone lines have been zapped at one house or another on this short road 3 times in the last 15 years. I don't want my phone flying off the wall or, as the next neighbor had in her bedroom, while she was still in bed, a fireball come out of the wall otlet and strike her opposing wall.

Again, thanks for the ID.  Jay

Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on January 22, 2019, 08:34:17 AM
I hope jayfed failed in this old quest to eradicate a decent NATIVE forb from his property.  I guess I'd have to question what his hurry to ID was all about....if he was not going to take the next step of determining whether or not the species was native to his area.

Sorry to respond to so old a post......but trying to make a point.  And that point is....very often, good, native species "invade
" an area.  That is what they do and is inevitable.  Ever see white pine or white-cedar "invading" an oldfield?  It's a beautiful...and necessary...thing.

wisconsitom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: SwampDonkey on January 22, 2019, 10:07:26 AM
I've never found it outside of the woods here. We tend to plow and cultivate fields every year. Not much for pasture land around here. Mostly we grow taters and grains so the soil is always worked.
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on January 22, 2019, 12:16:40 PM
But whether found or not, it is a valuable....and non-threatening entity.  My god, the U.P. guy has dogbane to worry about?  Come on down to E-Central WI and get yourself a load of common buckthorn.  You will never mind seeing a bit-or even a bunch-of dogbane again!

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: TKehl on January 22, 2019, 01:01:29 PM
Sounds like your soil is goat deficient.  ;D  They likka the bucka-thorn.
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on January 22, 2019, 01:23:32 PM
I'm afraid that goat thing is being way over-sold.  They don't just like buckthorn.  They will readily consume pretty much all vegetation in their path.  Utterly unsuited to the vast majority of cases, as are most simplistic "solutions".

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: TKehl on January 23, 2019, 12:31:35 PM
I know.  Theyíre terrible.  Canít even find a multiflora rose bush in the areas Iíve had them 5 years.  Much less poison ivy to.  They encourage pruning of lower limbs and mostly prefer the leaves of my low value trees over my high value ones.  They even eat the stuff in the pasture the cows leave improving the grass sward.  That and putting money in my pocket instead of paying for spraying.  Yep, goats are pretty terrible indeed.   ;)  ;D
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on January 23, 2019, 12:35:08 PM
All sarcasm noted.....there are numerous accounts of goats run a muck.  It sounds like in your woods...with exactly that species composition, and in your pasture...with exactly that forb/grass mixture....everything is hunky-dorry.  I guess you then go on to think that proves that this will work everyhwere and all the time.

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: catalina on January 23, 2019, 03:13:25 PM
Tom, all sarcasm noted, the goat thing has been a running thing here for quite some time. Goats are no different than people-we all can run a muck, lol. I don't think Tkehl ever said that goats can and will work everywhere. There are countless reports of goats, sheep, and cattle being a viable entity in proper management for improving pasture quality and control of non desirable ground cover species in reclamation projects.  
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on January 24, 2019, 08:54:04 AM
I have heard plenty about this, and yes, for years now.  I maintain, the way it is portrayed-and Tkehl's comments were-in my opinion, of this nature-is an over-sell of the concept.  Far, far more places where it would be utterly inappropriate than where it would be helpful, I think.

Then of course, in all things nature...there's shifting baseline phenomenon, where folks tend to think that what they saw when they were kids is somehow "the way it's supposed to be".  Thus, the sheep-ruined landscape of the British Isles (and New Zeeland, for that matter) is often romantically portrayed-by people with no knowledge of what has happened there-as being of great beauty, when in fact, there is virtually no trace of the original vegetation cover present there.  I think that some of the "good changes" wrought by goats on the landscape may be being felt by folks who don't know or remember what vegetation communities (we call them forests here) that land could support!  Not saying that about Mr. Tkehl here, but many, many folks haven't a clue.

Like the tourist copy I saw the other day..about a certain area of the U.P. and its virgin forestlands!  The area in question has surely been logged at least 4 times!  And burned a half dozen more......or the land around this community I live in....surely, it's always been farm fields, right!

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: TKehl on January 24, 2019, 11:14:20 AM
**First, sarcasm mode now set to off.  **
**Second, I want to say that my label as ďcontrarianĒ is more about answering peoples A or B question with a ďActually have you thought about C?Ē.  I enjoy a good debate, but donít argue just to be a jerk.**
 
I hear you.  At the same time, what is natural? 
 
There are at least three big events that have drastically changed the landscape of North America over the lastÖ lets say while (because I donít want to start an argument over years). 
 
 
So what natural do you mean? ???
 
 
In my opinion, overgrazing kills species more than particular species do.  The ding dongs near town that run 6 horses on 2 acres where the grass never gets ľĒ tall just make me cringe.  Iíve also seen goats run too hard in a single pen and it has the same effect that hogs have, moonscaped,  just with less rooting.  Set stocked cattle themselves do a lot of a damage.  
 
For me personally, growing up as a kid I saw set stocked cattle and unmanaged woods that grew up thick with multiflora rose, honey locust, and green briar.  (At least the rosebushes could be brushhogged in the pasture.)  There are some areas of nice Black Walnut, but 75% of the woods are low value either from species or quality.  Iíve seen terraces installed  ;D and also what lack of planning for terrace discharges will do :(.  Iíve seen a lot of row crop ground tiled an shaped to increase drainage instead of efforts to increase retention.  (In aggregate, probably influencing the dramatic high and low levels on the rivers.)  Iíve also seen a lot of fencerows dozed out to make row crop fields bigger with fewer turns.  That leads to desertification long termÖ
 
My plan (maybe not perfect, but profitable and environmentally better than monoculture and the plurality of current ag):  Rotationally graze the cattle and goats, improve the species and quality of timber by heavy culling (80 acres or so was open ground in the 50's that got overgrown), opening up some areas of woods to be glades and savannah pasture, planting a few trees in existing pasture, and converting our few acres of row crop ground to silvopasture with probably hybrid chestnut trees on the hills and black walnut in the low ground.  We also plan to build additional ponds for water retention as well as increasing permeation of the soil.  All in all a 10 year project. 
 
To be honest though, my driving goals are more focused on increasing revenue per acre via increased timber value, nuts, and livestock.  Wildlife is considered, but itís secondary.  There are a lot of other unmanaged woodlots and some managed for wildlife around me, so Iím not overly concerned.  Though I donít mind leaving a dead snag in the woods and leaving some brushpiles for rabbits.
 
Other than fencing, the biggest negatives I find about goats are they also tend to kill Blackberry and Gooseberry bushes and are real hard on Black Haw shrubs.  However, in a couple years they do more than I can do in a decade bringing the unmanaged scrub to something producing good timber and pasture, and they pay me to do it!  As such, I accept the tradeoff.
 
For converting row crop ground to pasture, goats or hair sheep may be the only way to do it without massive chemical inputs.  The seedbank is dead, so the grass getís choked out by henbit, ragweed, pigweed, and a number of other large forbs.  Seeding the ground as well as feeding good quality hay to the cattle when the ground is froze, then keeping cattle off during growth, but rotating goats through, has been effective. 
 
No it wonít work everywhere, but it works in most places as long itís not wet, brittle, or sensitive ground and things arenít overgrazed (though targeting some species requires some pulsed short term overgrazing).  Goating an area HARD in areas where an invasive is predominant and again when it starts to get regrowth will do a lot to knock it back and let other species get a foothold.  Bush Honeysuckle is the local invasive a lot are panicking about.  Has choked out a lot of acres along nearby creeks.  On our property, when found, they are hinge cut over for the goats to eat, then later they eat any regrowth and stump sprouts.  QED   ;D
 
I am still a student of goats, not an expert.  My herd is pretty small, only about 50, and only been on about 30 acres so far.  My experience is geographically limited to the Ozark foothills of MO.  But, Iím going on almost 6 years of hands on experience with results that fit my management plan and am expanding fencing to the rest of the farm now as my herd expands.  

Without goats, the alternate plan would be to log heavily, then doze and burn large areas of low grade, like what neighboring farmers have done.  As such, I like goats a lot for what they do even if they are a PITA!   :D
 
It sounds like you have had some negative experiences.  I would like to hear about them.  Frankly, Iím hoping I can learn from them to avoid making the same mistakes. 
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on January 24, 2019, 12:59:54 PM
TKehl, all of my negative experiences have been in the literature.  I think I'm in a sufficiently different kind of area than you,and here, I'm talking about where my land is, 60 miles north of where I sit now, compared to Missouri foothills.  I do tend to think that for my state's prairie enthusiasts, goats would make perfect sense.  I'm not particularly a prairie guy (although I install thousands of acres of same at my job) and I think the northern "mixed wood" forest type that I own up there would be a poor fit for the goat.  I too can learn more on this topic, however!

Baseline veg, in my world, is not a confusing concept.  You see, I've got the very large, very detailed Original Vegetation Cover of Wisconsin map prominently on my cubbie wall.  It is the bible, conjured by the men who surveyed this state circa 1848.  This does not mean that I attempt to match each site based on this map, but more generally, I know what's what in this region, and what direction things might reasonably take.

I have not one but two hybrid entities with which I'm working on my land, so so much for being against seeing changes or being some kind of purist.  I would, in fact-and this is between you, dear reader, and the fence post...not mind if my hybrid larch (Larix x marschlinsii)were to have some gene introgression into the nearby tamaracks in my swamp.  Flowering timing makes it somewhat unlikely, but I offer this to show.....I'm no purist in any sense.  In fact-and this is highly controversial, I think we as foresters are entering a new era where say, someone might come up to Mr. TKehl and say, sir, can you grow us X amount of fiber, having such and such characteristics, in X amount of time?  I think hybrid tree types are going to be used more, not less in the near future....and that in some cases, these entities will promote biodiversity, not limit it.  That's really another topic though.

The other hybrid entity with which I will soon be doing collaborative work with the breeder is a range of hybrid aspens.  We hope to develop aspens which are able to be planted from 12" forestry cuttings, just like their near-relatives, the poplars can be.  Then once this goal is achieved-and things are well-along-we seek to develop clones with "figured grain".  That too is in the works with these "A-G" hybrids, that designation indicating that they are hybrids of Populus grandidentata-the wonderful native tree, bigtooth aspen.....and the clonally-invasive Populus alba-the white poplar.  The PMG hybrids, named after the initials of the breeder, are combinations of traits from these two species, and I think, are going to be both impressive and econo9mically important in the future.  We're working on it!

tom

PS..."clonally invasive" ain't no thang.  It's the plants that birds poop out the seeds far and wide that are giving us fits, not small, clonal patches growing around their edges.  That's nothing.
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: TKehl on January 24, 2019, 01:57:53 PM
I think we are in a good place.  We may not agree with each other, but respect each other and their opinion. 
 
Very interesting projects.  Do you have a blog?  Iíd be especially curious to learn more especially your comments about specific fibers.  Something Iíve heard of, and looked into just enough to see there was no viable market locally or that would be practical to ship to.  There are a couple plants doing biomass around here.  Some with grass and others withÖ maybe cottonwood.  Saw some info about it at the MU (Missouri U) Agroforestry field day.  Itís been up and down though from the people Iíve talked to.
 
The figured Aspen is interesting to, but not something that would probably translate well to my climate. 
 
I was going to suggest you add more about yourself to your profile, but it looks like youíve already done some of that since the last post.  ;D
 
I agree that goats and praries could be a VERY good mix.  The MO Dept. of Conservation has some beautiful prairie near us that I watch.  Partly because of fond memories from the hay contract we had on it growing up.  They no longer hay the ground, which is probably for the best.  But now they put in a lot of effort to cut down saplings, patches of sumac and a lot of shrubs along the creeks in order to improve prairie chicken habitat by making it harder on coyotes to ambush them.  We go to church with the agent that used to do the hay contracts and have informally discussed doing a goat trial as mechanical intervention is expensive and spraying difficult with the diversity of the native prairie plants.  Weíll see.  Have to get herd number up first, but have also been getting landowner inquires from other cattle farmers and people with vacant land for rent cheapÖ 
 
I definitely I hear about issues with goats and sheep especially in Mongolia and Africa lately.  They most often boil down to overgrazing for the given conditions though.  At the same time, I do know that I will have to keep the goats out of areas in the future to allow for regeneration.  They may not kill oak and walnut like they will trees they like, but they will stunt them pretty good during establishment.

Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on January 24, 2019, 02:27:47 PM
Quite a primitive presence on the web are I.  No blog, yet to post one photo...that sort of thing.  I do need to get more facility with sharing digital images however, just to better enable my collaboration with;

www.Open4st.com    and

https://larchresearch.com

Those are the two groups with which I am collaborating.  Those recent posts on this board where I'm full of questions about WoodMizer (and equivalent) rigs and so on relate to the fact of roughly 6000 very fast-growing hybrid larch on my property.  Legacy trees are the goal....but many stops along the way, where we'll be primarily thinning out stands and getting rid of runts and poor looking stuff.  As such, my sawing-as far as timber I have grown myself, will go larch...white pine...red pine...Norway spruce....just in terms of rapidity of growth.  It's all about the larch right now.  Oh, and I suppose some hybrid aspens may meet the saw some day.  With aspen, the more you cut, the more stems (ramets) come out of the ground.

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: Jeff on January 24, 2019, 02:40:01 PM
Hopefully this does not happen to your larch. we had over a 90% loss

Loss of our Tamarack (Eastern Larch) in Forestry and Logging (http://forestryforum.com/board/index.php?topic=45897.0)
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 04, 2019, 10:42:17 AM
The larch sawfly hit pure stands here around 2007-2010 (if my memory isn't foggy :D ), give or take. But tamarack scattered about the woods didn't make as easy a target. I would consider plantations of larch at risk to sawfly and the larch beetle Jeff had of course.
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on April 04, 2019, 12:14:52 PM
Naturally, I keep a watch for sawfly larvae.  None yet.  The hybrid larch, incidentally, does exhibit greater resistance to larch canker than does our native tamarack.  But yes, I do have a concern over the sawfly.  In truth, because my total land holdings are small, I could probably treat for sawfly if I had to.

Time will tell but these hybrid larch are growing so fast, they may get to marketable size before the sawfly knows they're even there!

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 04, 2019, 01:38:26 PM
Yep, I know European and Japanese larches out grow tamarack in annual growth and straight as cannon barrels. :)
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: Woodpecker52 on April 04, 2019, 09:56:23 PM
As far as goats go to eradicate plants, They will eat the leaf, then the stem, then paw the ground to eat the root, then when all the vegetation is gone they will strip the bark off the trees till they die.  There is a reason the middle east looks like it does and it is not all because it is so dry.
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on April 09, 2019, 09:04:03 AM
...and the related sheep is singly responsible for the appearance of most of the British Isles and New Zealand for that matter.  Nature has been utterly replaced by a landscape of tightly-shorn grass!

tom

PS...the tamaracks in my woods-not my plantation larches now-are also tall, straight trees.  Could it be we have better land-races in this species here in the Western Great lakes than do folks in New England and adjacent parts of Canada?  I wouldn't have thought so, having seen fine stands of tamarack in  Maine when I was a kid.....but the words on this forum do make me wonder.  So much talk of twisty grain, large and numerous branches...all just the opposite of what we see around here.  Larch are generally known for minimal branching (and resulting knots) and straight, unblemished grain.

I'd love to one day saw up some White-cedar for siding but I believe that when i get to doing same with my hybrid larch cants, it will be much better stuff.  The equivalent-sized white-cedar will be an old stem, likely with decay in the heartwood, limiting its usefulness.  That same-sized cant of larch will come from a young, vigorous tree with zero rot.
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: TKehl on April 09, 2019, 11:11:47 AM
As far as goats go to eradicate plants, They will eat the leaf, then the stem, then paw the ground to eat the root, then when all the vegetation is gone they will strip the bark off the trees till they die.  There is a reason the middle east looks like it does and it is not all because it is so dry.
Yes, overgrazing is ugly.  Mongolia is currently having significant issues with this as well.
Rotation and appropriate stocking density is critical.  They are a tool that can do a lot of good, but used incorrectly can cause a lot of damage.
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 09, 2019, 06:45:16 PM
Tom, I find it greatly depends on where they grow and how thick. The one down in the old orchard behind the house is an ugly beast. :D

Hard to sell the stuff here, if they was worth much, Jim Irving's forestry empire would have seized onto it by now. :D Most people outside of this region never heard tell of the Irvings. They are not publicly traded. Everything is in the family. Several $billion. There's government, the Irvings and the rest of us. And that ain't a joke. :D
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on April 10, 2019, 08:36:01 AM
I have heard of the Irving's empire, probably because I follow forestry happenings in New England And adjacent parts of Canada too.

Generally, what has hurt all manner of forest experimentation is the deep dump of tropical timber onto the world market by Chinese entities beginning around the year 2000.  This has tended to cut the legs off most efforts towards tree improvement, etc.  What's the point, when another giant barge-load of tropical wood, cut below-cost, is making its way to some cheapo paper mill or veneer plant somewhere in SE Asia?  It's only enthusiasts like me and the other larch research guys that even keep these sparks lit.  In other words, folks with interests in the trees themselves, not market tabulations on Xcel!

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: TKehl on April 10, 2019, 12:22:49 PM
Certainly a gamble looking at the long game with all the changes going on in the industry.  What will be worth a darn in 40-80-100 years?  Will my Black Walnut and White Oak be ďhighly valuableĒ, fall out of favor in the market, or succumb to thousand cankers and wilt?  Will biomass fuel take off? 
 
I donít consider myself knowledgeable enough to really know long term.  My strategy is to have a reasonable annual return from the land (mixed pasture and timber) (livestock, fodder, firewood, and lumber from dying and thinned trees) with the hopes of periodic higher payoffs from timber sales.  Still a gamble, but shifts the odds back to where I can accept.   ;)
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 11, 2019, 06:50:59 AM
Just a little tidbit on the Irvings, they got a better tariff deal on the softwood lumber dispute. They've dreamed up some formula in their favor. Traditionally it was all or nothing for everyone. When you play divide and conquer very few win and a lot more lose. A game they love to play. ;)
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on April 11, 2019, 09:48:40 AM
As far as I can tell, the best things to be doing are those you really care about and appreciate intrinsically, with or without remunerative payback.  Easy for me to say....all of my tree farm activities are outside my main income generation.  But in explaining what I am doing....or trying to do, with these hybrid larch and aspen, I really can't lose.  I'm only planting them because I like them, not for any other later goal.  Sure, I'd like to imagine these things going forward into time, perhaps creating pockets of "synthetic species", which are simply new entities on the landscape.  And true, I am working with groups seeking greater utilization of these tree types in the industry at large.  But I have no idea what will happen long-term.  If the prognosticators are correct, even my northern location may get too hot for any larch or aspen, though I don't expect to quite see that in my lifetime.  And the inclusion of Japanese larch genetics in these hybrid larch do give them greater heat tolerance.  So there's that.

If I were starting all over-just bought the piece of property-I'd be planting exactly the same mix.  The main players are that hybrid larch, red pine, white pine, and Norway spruce.  Aspen hybrids begin next week....or maybe a week or two after that!  It's snowing.

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 11, 2019, 10:12:50 AM
My goal is to work with native species on the sites that they do well or better than some. I have some wet land for the elm, black ash, tamarack, cedar and balsam poplar to dominate. Then the better land for everything else. I don't plan on cutting more than I need for firewood and maybe a fir log now and again. I doubt very seriously the next guy follows that plan, in fact high probability it will be flattened as soon as I'm planted in the ground. All I gotta do is look around, it says it all. :D And I'm not one to dictate what someone else is going to do with the land or tie it up in some high end land trust. No chance of that anyway because there is nothing all that special about it nor uniqueness for anyone to have that kind of interest. Well, maybe if you want a cabin in the woods and a mountain to look up at. What's that worth? :D
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on April 11, 2019, 12:03:29 PM
All the native trees you mention are in good supply in my woods.  All my words relate only to the "plantation" portion of my property, and even there, within the plantation acreage, the ultimate goal is to allow and encourage the dispersal of the existing native tree types into that area over time.  I am often pleased to already see new tiny white-cedar recruits showing up here and there, as well as white pine volunteers.

Some day, if I'm around long enough to so direct, there will be the remnants of a pine/spruce/larch plantation, full of recruits of birch, aspen, maple, as well as more of the coniferous species themselves.  By then, we will have thinned plantation growing stock such that it will now be widely-spaced and begin to appear more as a natural woodland.  There will be additional species within that matrix.  I will have transplanted a fair number of white-cedar up into that zone of my property, which is something I've been engaged in for some time now.  To wit:  When I go to dig a young white-cedar out of somewhere in my swamp, where they are coming up too close together, etc, I just can't kill one.  Even if I go from a wet spot to a higher, well-drained location, the trees don't seem to skip a beat.  Must be among the easiest of tree types to transplant!

tom

PS...kind of an oddity, but I intend to also plant a great number of seedlings/saplings of "Canada red cherry" around the perimeter of my site, in groves and bunches.  Why?  Because I ultimately want purple brush around my site, and to offer massive bird food, etc.  There are places right here in town where I've seen a suckering grove of CRC set against a backdrop of say, large, old Norway spruce.  The effect is marvelous.  I plan to periodically take the little saw and coppice the groves...to keep it as brush, not individual trees.  I have sourced very affordable transplants of this item, but because there is a $200 minimum order...and because that would amount to far more plants than I will have time to install this particular spring....I told the lady that I'd be getting back to her in 2 years-once I'm retired-and go ahead and get the hundreds and hundreds of plants that such an order would amount to!  Pockets of purple puckerbrush around the edges.  Wait until fall, when the larch are giant golden cones!

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 11, 2019, 01:11:02 PM
Yes cedar is easy to move, shallow and like a mat, no tap root. :)

One shrub that is in no small numbers around here is red berried elder. Any dozing of mud near roads is prime habitat. And old Christmas tree plantations. Lots of your purple woody sticks to look at. :D

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_redberried-elder.jpg)

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_red-berries-elder-003.jpg)

I've been trying to get the wild Canada plum going again around here. A lot of it was torn up over the years. It gets black knot bad, but WD40 kills black knot. I found a small grove with trees as big as apple trees. Most places around they are like alders with thorns. :D

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_wild_Canada_plum.jpg)

Jelly, precious stuff and closely guarded. :D

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_plum-jelly1.jpg)
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on April 11, 2019, 01:39:16 PM
Yes, no Prunus species is going to escape black knot.  Never heard of the WD40 technique!  My CRC's will be periodically mowed down via chainsaw to keep them brush, not trees.  This may limit black knot development to a degree, but not completely, of course.  Still, I won't be worried about that.  Just mow 'em down when things get bad.....kill off (or let die on own) if things get bad enough...it isn't going to matter by then when I've got thousands of pine,spruce, larch and cedar to occupy my time and energy!  Utterly un-managed plantings of suckering CRC's can be seen around this town, doing just fine, year after year.  If I get something similar, I'll be satisfied.

CRC does not like wet feet.  The entire zone where I would be installing this chokecherry variant is upland and moist but well-drained.

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 11, 2019, 02:21:30 PM
Is your CRC, pin cherry? The leaves turn scarlet on them. They don't get black knot much here, but the black cherry do.

Old photo here, where the scarlet red pin cherry are there, I have a grove of yellow birch now. Be a nice mix with those larch trees in fall. ;D

(http://forestryforum.com/gallery/albums/userpics/11009/SD_PinCherry.jpg)
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on April 12, 2019, 08:17:51 AM
"Canada Red Cherry" is a cultivar of chokecherry.  Sometimes also known as "Schubert". I like the pin cherry puckerbrush too.  Your y. birch grove is a great thing..  That's the tree I will most likely be interplanting into conifer plantation area as thinning commences in years ahead.  I'll get sugar maple and some others without trying.

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 12, 2019, 09:43:03 AM
Lots of choke cherry here, but they turn yellow like black cherry leaves. Never seen any go red in the wild here. :)
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on April 12, 2019, 10:07:51 AM
Swamp, have you seen "Canada red cherry" used in landscaping?  It will typically be trained into singe-stem tree form, and is by far the most purple entity in the summer landscape.  It is a common, although not "trendy" landscape plant around here.  I used to have two in the backyard that were trained as trees.  They eventually succumbed to black knot and gummosis, but not before serving well in their locations for roughly 30 years.

So it's not fall color-although that is good too-but all-summer-long purple color that we get from this plant.  I'd guess you've got CRC as a landscape plant in NB areas.  Very cold-hardy cultivar, originally sourced (I believe) from a nursery row in N. Dakota somewhere.

I can use it for my upland border areas.  It's not a plant of soggy soils.

tom
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: SwampDonkey on April 12, 2019, 03:34:19 PM
Well, when I make a trip to Scott's nursery I can keep an eye out for it. If anyone is supplying it around here it would be them. Our growing zones (Plant Hardiness) are different than what you use, but here is zone 4b. Extreme minimim of -30C (-35 F). In comparison, down on the southwestern tip of Nova Scotia is zone 6b in Yarmouth area of -20C (-29F).

Right now I am into growing black elder. I also have some grape I need to move location with. Last year was the first year the grapes never go ruined by disease. I have to get them off the ground though. I've had them for 30 years, but not enough aeration to the vines and fruit and never tended them much. I have to move 3 or 4 rhubarb buds to this spring, just as soon as I see life. These are over 100 year old plants. Also need to fill in some raspberry I started in my new patch. Was awfully dry last summer and didn't get many shoots off those transplants.

Summer, just a lot of darn work on top of paying work. :D

When father (an old spud farmer for 45 years) was asked if he wanted to volunteer some. He was retired then. He said he volunteered all his life, not going to any more. Took up golfing, never held a golf club up until then. :D
Title: Re: Invasive Non-woody Plant Species (spreading dogbane)
Post by: wisconsitom on April 14, 2019, 11:33:19 AM
Your location and that of my tree farm are in essentially the same climatic zone.

tom