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Author Topic: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting  (Read 6045 times)

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Offline jemmy

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1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« on: August 29, 2018, 11:14:40 AM »
When I purchased this mill the previous owner had a 56" blade mounted. I don't want to mess up that blade in my learning curve so I swapped it out for a 48" blade. The issue is that I need to move the blade guide back and situate it on the 48" blade. How far onto the blade should the wooden guides be? I imagine the distance between the teeth and the pegs is the most important factor. If anyone can point me in the right direction that would be grand and glorious. Thank you for helping!

Don't worry, I will end up posting many more photos/videos once the weather is frigid but for now I will just be posting trouble shooting photo's. 
 



 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Jeff

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2018, 11:38:33 AM »
Guidepins should just clear your shanks.
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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2018, 11:42:53 AM »
Exactly like Jeff has said. Just under shanks at first available smooth surface. Control that cutting edge as close as possible.

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2018, 12:17:03 PM »
Awesome! Thank you Jeff and CCCLLC for the help!
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline dgdrls

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2018, 07:16:35 PM »
Jemmy,  good evening.

Just a though, you're gonna want to know what the arbor RPM is geared at.
The saw speed (surface feet per minute) is going to change with the smaller saw
 and will probably not saw as well as it could unless you pick up the arbor RPM speed.

Let us know how u do,

best
D


Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2018, 11:21:49 PM »
Ok, I was able to break the bolts that secured the guide pins, allowing me to move the pins to what I believe is the correct position for the new 48" blade. I have posted updated photos of the updated positioning. If you all could tell me what else needs to be address with the pins that would be great! My primary concern now is how plum the pins are and whether or not the distance (currently about 1/8" on each side), if there is even suppose to be any, between the pins and blade are appropriate. And despite these photos, I got the cable system hooked up and taught. So there is only two things left before testing the saw. These pins and I have a leak in the radiator :( ... But this has been two years in the making so I am pretty ecstatic, just need to figure these couple of issues. In regards to rim speed, I really have no idea how to calculate it. The power source is a 3-71 Detroit diesel with a standard transmission. The directions for cutting from the previous owner was "slam it into 2nd and bring it up until you hear the Detroit hum" hahaha, so not the most scientific fashion of distinguishing feed rates, rim speed etc. Any ideas on how to approach?  


 



 

 

Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2018, 05:16:44 AM »
Things may change with the distance on your guides when you start things up.  I always adjusted my pins on a running saw, but I wouldn't suggest that to someone without a bunch of experience around a running saw.  I'd loosen the pins up to see how the saw stands when its running.  Then shut it off and adjust until you get to where you can see daylight around the guides.  It may take a little bit of playing around with them to get them right.  

Get a digital tach to check your RPM.  They aren't very expensive.  There as some that are contact type.  Those you hold on the center of the shaft.  Others are non contact and are checked with a laser on a piece of reflective tape.  No need to get close to the spinning shafts.  Both will fit your needs.  The laser type are about $10 on Ebay.

Most mills of that era ran about 540 RPM.  When I was running diesels, they had a tach on them, and the throttle was set that it ran at a certain RPM.  These were industrial Detroits and didn't have a transmission.  
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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2018, 07:58:21 AM »
If you bring the engine speed up from idle, with the blade spinning, and at say half speed the saw starts to wobble, and slowly keep increasing speed until the saw runs flat, that is the hammered speed.    While sawing you cannot go below this speed. If you had the tach  described above, you could know this rpm when making this test.    What make is this sawmill?

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 09:20:47 PM »
Alrighty, well I will be doing some shopping on ebay for a tachometer. And in terms of RPMs is there such a thing as too fast? Obviously there is too fast for the Detroit. But once you exceed the hammered speed does the outside pin have the responsibility of keeping the blade from bowing too far outward? This mill is an American Mill that has been set on a 6" H beam frame. 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2018, 06:35:25 AM »
Guide pins is sort of a misnomer.  They don't really guide the saw, but protect it from knot dodge and other sorts of things when the cut goes off line.  

The last mill I ran, I was running 700 RPM.  That's what the mill was set up for, and that's what the saws were hammered for.  If you run too fast, your saw just won't perform very well.  Fast running saws are harder for maintenance.  Your teeth have to be in good shape.  The angle has to be good and there can't be any corners off on the teeth.  The saw collars also have to be in good shape.  There isn't that much of an advantage on an older mill to run that fast.  Most of them ran around 540 RPM.  

If you go too fast for what the saw has been hammered, it will bow out, which will also effect your lead, especially if you are holding it back with the guide pins.  You'll also get heat in the rim, and that will twist the saw.  You'll also be burning up your guide pins.  
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Offline Gearbox

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2018, 09:03:59 PM »
I like to run my saws about 25 RPM over the stand up speed . the way I do it is back your guides off so you have a 1/8 on the log side . increase the speed as you will hear the saw banging the guides . keep increasing speed until the banging stops.  
A bunch of chainsaws a BT6870 processer , TC 5 International track skidder and not near enough time

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2018, 09:04:24 AM »
I like to run my saws about 25 RPM over the stand up speed . the way I do it is back your guides off so you have a 1/8 on the log side . increase the speed as you will hear the saw banging the guides . keep increasing speed until the banging stops.  
Me too, or even 50 rpm over depending on how the governor takes ahold.

Offline DMcCoy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2018, 10:18:15 AM »
Just a fwiw.  Hopefully the rusty blade in the picture is your old blade.  I have those same bits and shanks and they are no longer available. 

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2018, 12:27:56 PM »
I remember my saw doc saying that you can go +/- 25 RPM from how the saw was hammered without too many problems.  I couldn't do that at the higher RPM that I ran.  
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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2018, 09:09:12 PM »
Just a fwiw.  Hopefully the rusty blade in the picture is your old blade.  I have those same bits and shanks and they are no longer available.
Are they style 3 or something larger?

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2018, 12:39:15 AM »
Yep, that's my old blade, I got a nice 56" blade being stored inside that will act as my primary soon, just want to get through the learning curve on this one, I ordered a laser RPM tachometer and chrome paint. I'm going to get the radiator problem hashed out tomorrow hopefully, and will be making my couple of passes. The capable system is hooked up, the blade is pretty well secured, just need to tidy a few things up with black tape, zip ties, a few minutes with the cut off wheel, and 1 run to TSC or Home depot and I'll have my first couple of boards. Pretty exciting to be this close, practically been two years since I dropped the down payment for this mill. Got what seems like an eternally long knock out list of knick-nacky projects, after the already mentioned problems are solved (radiator, etc) Ive got to set up the throttle, but Im, thinking I will be able to rig something for the mean time hehe. I've got practically all day tomorrow to work on it, so I should have things tidied up and ready for testing by tomorrow night, all things going exactly to plan and what not..... I will keep you all up to date, I'm probably going to start a separate thread for this build, I have hours and hours of video that I took of the extraction of the mill, building of the form, and what not, I have practically the entire project captured on my go pro, just need to condense it. These are my current problems though, so I don't see this thread disappearing anytime soon. Thank you all for the help so far and for the future help and interest. These past two years have been quite a trip, and I know things are just beginning. Got practically an endless amount of knowledge to acquire, I'm just a young buck trying to cut some great lumber!
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2018, 05:50:30 AM »
Mounting the blade.  Put the saw on the arbor, and pull back on the shear pins before tightening.  If you don't, you might snap your shear pins on the first cut.  Snapping shear pins is nasty.  Also, when you tighten, you can overtighten and smash your collars.  The way I tightened up the nut was to snug it up with the wrench, then kick the end of the wrench 3-4 times.  That's tight enough.  
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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2018, 04:14:25 PM »
Well, I have the guide pins off of the blade by 1/8th inch and secured well. In terms of the shear pins, I put the blade on and how I thought it went together then tightened down the nut with a 36" pipe wrench no kicking, just the force of 250lbs giving a few pulls (not me my big friend), there were two pins that were inserted into the collar, then were inserted into the mill through the blade before the tightening of the nut.  I hope this makes sense, I've had the saw up to rpms and everything seemed to be good in terms of the the securing of the blade. I really did not understand your explanation of what to do with the shear pins, and from what you described as the consequence I don't fancy having my shear pins break on my first cut. If you or someone could put it into other terms or explain differently this technique that would be grand and glorious. 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2018, 07:07:25 PM »
I was describing what to do when you have the shear pins and collar on the saw.  You pull back on the saw while you snug up the nut.  Chances are you won't shear the pins.  But, it has been know to happen.
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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2018, 07:42:46 PM »
Those pins are a big deal. What Ron is telling you is that the saw pin holes must be touching the pins in the direction of force when the saw is in the log. They are not shear pins, they are drive pins. They do not have to fit tight and should be smooth. The saw needs to be able to 'oil can' in the collars so dents in the pins are not good.  Never stall or jam the saw in the log as this can dent the pins or worse and over tighten the nut and damage the collars and even bend the threaded end.  When learning to saw there is a lot to keep tract of.  It took me a long time to teach myself to saw and many years to trouble shoot well enough that I can saw every day.


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