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Author Topic: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting  (Read 4508 times)

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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2019, 01:36:55 AM »
When I did my first 10ft x 12" cut it seemed like the motor could just power through it, so Idk why its having problems getting through when the blade seems to be standing. I can see the the right RPM's where it stands but the RPMs fall as the log hits it. So I cranked it up slowly and blade seemed to be doing ok but it kept dying. A few minor adjustments up I see the blade twisted goofy, so I powered it down and came on here to see what happened. And what I can do to learn. Im going to be studying some manuals over the coarse of the next week.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2019, 08:17:44 AM »
As you probably have been told the speed of the saw must remain in the cut.  A big problem for beginners is understanding the swage of the teeth and how it must be equal on both sides. Getting the lead just right is a real pain because if everything is not perfect you can't tell what's going on. Go by the book and be fussy about the teeth as they take the saw where they want.

Offline Sawmill Man

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #42 on: February 04, 2019, 08:36:16 AM »
You could also be having governor or fuel delivery problems
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Offline Trapper John

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #43 on: February 04, 2019, 09:07:31 AM »
If your Detroit has a transmission it probably came out of a truck and probably has a limited speed governor.  You will need a variable speed governor.  Or maybe your belt is slipping.

Offline Jeff

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #44 on: February 04, 2019, 09:43:19 AM »
If you have not read this yet, stop, dont do anything else and READ IT.
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/circsaw.pdf
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2019, 12:11:23 PM »
How cold was it when you were trying to get things to go right?   When it gets really cold, things don't go as well.  Especially if you have any water in your fuel.  We always put in fuel conditioner in our tanks.  Metal also doesn't work as well when there is extreme cold.

As for teeth, when I troubleshoot, I always start with new teeth.  That way you eliminate any tooth maintenance problems.
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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2019, 05:24:29 PM »
Well I have been chunking out that circle mill document. But its like drinking from a fire hose. There's about a million things that could be the issue, and I dont know how to properly asses and address the issues. That is why I am interested in someone coming to point at things that are wrong, and how to fix it. This mill is a nice foundation, it has a 5" beam(s) for its foundation and I put it on a very big foundation. (it is 36"+ thick concrete and 3ft wide) Its just all of the multiple potential issues that has my brain in a twist. I dont even know where to start. I figure even if these teeth are dull that this motor would not have any issues with a 12" cut. I wanted to get this thing running and deal with discrepancies as they arrive and put out each fire as it shows itself. Similar to a truck, you get it running, and find out the breaks are working, or an injector is bad etc. But if it cant start then you cant begin to analyze problems. I dont know what I am looking at half the time and words on a page dont always translate. I am mechanically inclined and when something doesn't seem "right" I can usually see it. But this takes a trained eye. And due to the nature of this thing I really don't want to pay a boat load of tuition in time, headaches, cash, or even my life. I can see how things can go wrong, and FAST, there are no brakes on the blade, and when something goes wrong i can kill the motor, but the blade doesnt stop running for a very long time. I am pretty committed to making this work. I just need to solve this jigsaw asap. Im also in school full time and many other Irons in the fire. I would like this to minimally produce lumber for myself, and slowly build a business around it. Maybe I wont sell dimensional, but there are many potential revenue streams this could contribute to. Its been a two year project and I am at a point where I need someone to set eyes on it so they can tell me the first steps to take. As of right now, I think one of my first moves is replacing the cable. It keeps lengthening each time the cart travels down the track. I have taken multiple feet out of it, which makes NO sense.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2019, 05:39:50 PM »
it was a nice day when I did the test cut. 55 degrees and sunny. So weather was not the factor to blame. Definitely the nut behind the wheel. 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Woodpecker52

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2019, 06:54:54 PM »
I decided I better get rid of my circle mill when I had the mill carriage jump the track with a log and come barreling straight at me,  I was smart enough to have built a steel roll bar cage  around the mill husks and sawyer stand. Just to many things can go wrong and in a hurry.
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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2019, 07:15:18 PM »
Had a miserable time when I started and I am mechanically inclined if nothing else.  When you push a board through a table saw you are guiding that board. When you dog a log or cant to a carriage and power feed it through a rip saw you have no control. The saw has to be running flat and cut the wood without touching anything but the teeth. The saw plate is there to support the teeth only. Start with new teeth and have the saw going at the right rpm or a little faster. Feed a nice, clean log slowly part way in and back out and observe. The trouble may start when you pass the center of the saw. Have the guide pins not toughing the saw but just there as a safety measure. If the saw goes left or right you will see it getting closer to the guide pins and at least know what it's doing. The condition of the teeth and the lead would cause this most likely.  Circle sawmills are much more fussy than many think. If you could get an expert to come and watch he may spot the trouble. Don't embarrass yourself with dull out of square teeth if you get somebody.

Offline dgdrls

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2019, 07:20:57 PM »
Jemmy,

what did your 55 degree and sunny test cut reveal?

D

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2019, 01:11:51 AM »
It revealed I am more lost than I thought I was. Haha... As for being embarrassed, I have a hard time being embarrassed only when I know better. Right now I am in state of ignorance, and I will need to study how to properly remove, sharpen, reinstall, and swage. And any other aspects that need addressed in the process. I thought I would get away with not messing with it too much at the start and get at least a couple hundred brdft attempted and iron out issues with blade alignment etc, these are the initial flights. I have run maybe 20bdft through it and each time I run it something goes wrong. I just need to cut 12 4"x6"-12"s that are 36" long to lay out the track extensions. I was going to do rough cut beams on two sides so I could finish of the track. So pretty much need to cut 72 bdft. And I really only need like 6-8 beams. Butttt that seems to be more challenging than I originally thought it would be.
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2019, 10:01:40 AM »
Its been awhile since I've put cable on a carriage.  I do remember when my cable started to get long, it was ready to break.  But, it wasn't getting as long as yours.  It would just be losing its tautness. 

There are 2 ways of putting on cable.  Most of the older mills used a single cable.  Other mills used 2 cables, one for the front and one for the back.  The cable drive depends on friction to drive things.  Your cable should have at least 4 or 5 wraps at all times.  I always run my cables over the top of the drum.  That's because the pulley was laying horizontal on the track frame.  Some run vertical, and those would run underneath.

For the single cable system, start at either the front or rear of the carriage.  Probably best to center your carriage between the two pulleys.  If you connect to the back of the carriage, you'll go to the front pulley before you start putting wraps on the cable drum.  Pull things tight as you go along.  Then, you'll run cable to the back pulley and to the front of the carriage.  You'll then use your tighteners to pull the cable tight.  Run your carriage back and forth which will take the slack out of your cable.  Continue to tighten until your cable is taut.  That should take care of your cable. 

You need to find someone who has a mill setup similar to yours.  Get in touch with a local mill or even a local forester.  You just need to ask if they know of any circle mills in the area.  Usually, they'll be more than happy to give you a lead.  Follow up until you find one.  There are usually several in any given area.  You're about 400 miles from me, and that's a bit too far to drive.
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline miro

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #53 on: February 08, 2019, 06:30:05 PM »
Sounds like my adventure with an under powered circle mill 7 years ago.
In order of priority I found:
1) I HAD to learn how to make each and every tooth SHARP and the same height . Learning what a tooth looks like when sharp and when dull is major importance.
The best way to learn this is to file by hand  with a new file, good lights, and steady strokes. Tooth corners need to be SHARP SHARP SHARP. File only the face of each tooth.
If a tooth is too high, file the face until it is the correct height.
I made up a jig ,using a dial indicator to measure each tooth and made them all within about 0.020 inch - less than 1/32 variation.

I routinely felt the saw blade ( just after shut down) to see if it was warm - never was.

2) I had to get the engine to deliver enough power to keep the blade RPM constant ( 500 in my case) . I fussed with it until a made up a tach that I could see from the sawyer position . Ultimately I made up an electronic tach with an analog meter display  so I only had to glance at it . I found digital meter displays need too much of my attention to read them.

Eventually, the engine governor was found to be "lazy" - that is, it didn't respond well , so initially the feed was "mild" until the engine throttled up - you could tell by the sound it made. Even then, on a 15 inch log, I had to feather the feed to keep the RPM up.

3) The US Forest Service document became my toilet tank reading material - kept at it until I learned to apply to the mill, what I had read ( and thought I understood)

4) I didn't give up and , yes I found an experienced sawyer - and visited him to see how he operated and got him to explain his way of "reading" the teeth and how his mill was working.  He would sharpen after every second or third log - did it in about 6 - 7 minutes.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #54 on: February 08, 2019, 08:08:23 PM »
Miro, good solid advice. I have found its best to start out with good shanks new bits and a freshly hammered saw  to reduce the variables. Everything solid, plumb and level with no play. Frank C.
A man armed with common sense is packing a big piece

Offline Old Iron nut

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #55 on: February 08, 2019, 09:20:56 PM »
Jemmy, If I was you I would get rid of that 2 stroke joke and get a 4 stroke motor with the right governor on it to run your mill. A friend of mine had a similar situation and he got the right governor for his 2 stroke joke and his mill started to run right. His motor was out of a truck and it did not have the right governor on it. Only thing I can see wrong on his setup is that he is standing beside the engine! Those stupid engines make more noise than one can imagine. Screaming demons. If you get one that doesn't leak oil, it is sick! That is what all my GM diesel friends say. Good luck on your venture! Old Iron nut.

Offline Don P

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #56 on: February 08, 2019, 10:32:02 PM »
I can understand a small amount of stretch in a new cable, and some more for it finding the shortest running path, but I'd also check to make sure the pulleys at the ends aren't drifting or being pulled out of whatever they are running in. On a Belsaw they used a pipe for an axle across each end of the mill. I bent those with heavy logs or when I got into a bind and have noticed on others the same thing. You're basically running a winch and the snatch blocks at either end need to be firmly anchored. I was also using cheapo eyebolts at each end of the carriage and pulled a couple straight before I welded them closed. Now if I get into a bind the roll pin in the drum axle shears which is the intended weak link. I'm sure yours is set up different but maybe the same idea might apply.
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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #57 on: February 09, 2019, 08:15:55 AM »
When I started drilled a hole in the end of the mandrel and jammed a speedometer cable in it that ran to a '55 chevy speedo. If memory serves, 45 mph= 600 rpm. Also had no governor, sawed with a 'string'.  Have seen 3-71s do a good job on a sawmill. Wonder if belts are slipping.

Offline Jeff

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #58 on: February 09, 2019, 03:36:07 PM »
No drilling required.



 
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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #59 on: February 09, 2019, 11:42:16 PM »
No belts are slipping I am going to play with the pins, gears, and cable again here soon. Talked with the previous owner so I am going to try a few things. TBC I am committed to this thing haha
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck


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