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Author Topic: Drying to 160 F  (Read 1345 times)

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Offline Escavader

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Re: Drying to 160 F
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2018, 01:51:51 PM »
  I believe the key is recording.you just cant write it down.my nyles kilns have the recording devices built in,although i have never used them.and the kilns have to be certified by an outside agency duch as Nelma,Who certify and check kilns for heat treatment.
  I Think there is alot more to it,then just having a kiln that can get to 160.
 My Nelma inspectors that come around and inspect our grading,have a ton of places they go just to check on heat treatment facilitys
Alan Bickford
Hammond lumber company/Yates American A20 planer with dbl profilers Newman feed table multiple saw trimmer destacker automatic stacking machine Baker resaw MS log corner machine  4 large capacity Nyles dehumidification kilns JCB 8000 lb forklifts woodmizer lt 15 and mp100 and blower

Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: Drying to 160 F
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2018, 02:06:34 PM »
The new regulation I quoted only allows the NHLA.  Indeed, NeLMA and others can do shipping certification for undried wood.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more

Offline farmfromkansas

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Re: Drying to 160 F
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2018, 04:25:32 PM »
The ash borers we have here in Kansas must bore deeper into the log once it is cut down.  A sawyer told me to spray the bark on some logs I took to him with malathion. Those boards were ok, but I sawed some myself and did not spray them, stacked the boards in the barn and went back in a few months to get some, and those boards were totally ruined by big nasty borers.

Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Drying to 160 F
« Reply #23 on: December 30, 2018, 05:12:01 PM »


The reality is that yard degrade of logs - insect attack, fungal decay, drying defects -can be a significant operating cost to any sawmill. And its one that largely goes uncounted. I've got an old mate who used to be a serious sawmiller, and he told me that they calculated their yard degrade as being around $300k a year - in the late 1980's. That was a lot of money back then, and they were big enough that they were doing things right in terms of prevention and minimisation. My degrade bill (by back of my head calculation) is around 9% of gross - which is to say that between straight up loss, and more importantly loss of grade - I think I'm losing about 9% of the potential value of my logs. It's part of the cost of business but its one that I lose sleep for sure. Faster saws and a log pond seem to be my best option, but that all comes at a cost too: straight up dollars for the saws, but ponded storage has a dollar operating cost that I dont fully know how to calculate. 

Anything sprayed on logs is better then nothing. And anything that will kill a termite will kill a borer. Malathion works, but its a nasty stuff. The pick of them for insect decay in a  log pile is a stuff called Pounce 500 which is a synthetic pyrethrin with a whole lot of rain fast capability.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Drying to 160 F
« Reply #24 on: December 30, 2018, 05:58:07 PM »
Pressure treating is expensive.  The chemical must be active after treating to be better than heat treating.  But what chemical do you want that will not affect the user in contact with the wood, will not affect someone sanding the wood with poisoned dust, will not change the wood color, will not harm the environment, will not affect gluing or finishing?

Fumigation with a gas like methyl bromide kills existing insects, just like heat, but heat can affect products that are already glued.  Heat without humidity control can dry and check wood.  Methyl bromide harms the environment.  Fumigation and heat do not provide lasting protection.

Indeed, heat treating is inexpensive.  

Even drying does not protect against all insects.
I think Gene that its a case of horses for courses, which is to say that the intended application of the wood product should determine the best treatment schedule.
Pressure treatment at commercial rates here runs at approximately 1/3 the cost per cubic meter of commercial kiln charges, plus chemical costs. Including chemical you're looking at around half the cost of kiln drying. Having said that for a product that has to be dried anyway its an over and above. The question then becomes does the wood product have to be dry? Some do, some dont : used to be a lot of things built with green ( no free water) wood once that arent now.
I'm still a believer in borax. It's cheap, effective, environmentally benign, although it does have drawbacks around leeching which limit its use in weather exposed situations.
General weather exposed the current darlings here are ACQ for timber in the rough, and H3 clear (which is permethrin and anti fungals in LOSP) for finished articles. H3 clear is applied after machining, the LOSP not drawn out during the negative pressure at the end of the treament cycle evaporates off fast resulting in no dimensional change to the profile so it suits things like mouldings, DAR etc.
There is some research being done around using vegetable type oils as a "pre oil" type treatment. Oil finished woods of course have high resistance to most decay organisms in the mid term.
The big one in all of this is the millions of tons of wood used every year in low grade applications like single use skids and packaging. Thats the stuff that transports pests and diseases all around the world, and it needs to be cheap. Although when you start to look at the economic impact of importing pests like EAB in the United States, you really have to wonder about whether cheap packaging wood is really cheap at all. As it stands thats the one I really feel we need to be asking questions about.... its fine it leaves the factory as HT spec... but then it goes to Joes warehouse where it gets stood up in the rain on the hardstand next to a termite mound for three days and next thing you know the HT stamp and treatment process was worthless. Its physically impossible for customs agencies the world over to check every single skid in every single container. I dont know the answer to that one but I'm just a sawmiller and I'm not paid to think but.... yanno I wonder about just pressure impregnation of plain old salt water, pre kiln cycle. Relatively cheap, no great environmental concerns at the end of the products very short life cycle, some issues with the in kiln environment and fixings and fittings but most of that stuff is single use so it doesnt matter if the screws are rusty at the other end.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: Drying to 160 F
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2018, 09:07:49 AM »
I do,believe we are talking about two different situations.  I do agree that treating softwoods as you indicate is a good idea.  But the original posting is about ash and the EAB.  Almost all ash lumber here is remanufactured after drying and is used in interior locations and would be in contact with humans.

The OP was citing the new regulation for KD hardwoods.

Here in North American, hardwood lumber is almost never pressure treated. Also, it would have to be PT prior to final drying, adding to the cost substantially.  Almost all ash is KD at 160 F already, so the only new part is the documentation and calibration checks.
Gene - Author of articles in Sawmill & Woodlot and books: Drying Hardwood Lumber; VA Tech Solar Kiln; Sawing Edging & Trimming Hardwood Lumber. And more


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