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Author Topic: American Elm Grove Or Ash  (Read 2606 times)

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Offline Spongiform

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American Elm Grove Or Ash
« on: May 06, 2011, 10:46:50 PM »
I'm considering starting a grove of American Elm, Ash or perhaps a combination of both.  I've recently been introduced into the wonders of Morels and have also been interested in doing some sort of forestry on my property.

Ash and Elm both are native to where I live (south-eastern Ohio) and I've found the same species of Morel growing on both locally.

I'm not sure what species of Ash this is but the locals called it Green Ash.
Here's some pictures of the trunk of one.  The leaves were /very/ high up and just coming out so I couldn't get a picture of those.   A more specific ID would be helpful!
Edit: the forum ate my picture links and it took me a few minutes to get it sorted out.


The space I have available is an open field that's currently being used as horse pasture during the summer.  It's about 135x135' and on a gentle northern slope with full sun at about 950 feet elevation.

I have 10 horses here so lots of horse manure that gets composted.   If I were to set up this grove I'd be able to spread organic (or mostly organic) compost out around the grove to feed the roots.   I would also seed the grove with morel spores and possibly live mycelium at some point.  I know that morels are a mycorrhizal species, which means they form a symbiotic relationship with the trees they grow on - breaking down & composting stuff in the soil which makes the nutrients in them available to the tree roots.

Spring fed pond water could be provided during the summer if necessary.  

The previous owners clear-cut much of the property approximately 10 years ago judging by the re-growth on the on the logging trails (now horse riding trails! :-D) so there's probably enough ash and/or elm saplings to transplant without having to buy anything.

So based on all this.  Would it be worthwhile to start a grove?  Would Elm and/or Ash be an economically feasible species? (bear in mind Morels are worth up to $60/lb fresh...)

Also based on the location and level of care I can offer would there be any other species or mixtures of species that would be appropriate?

Thanks in advance for any information or advice.  One of my goals for moving out to the countryside was to get back to nature and live off and with the land as much as possible and I think some forestry would be a natural part of that.



Offline SPIKER

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2011, 11:17:23 PM »
the ELM will not hold up to much more than 8~10" here in Ohio, the Dutch Elm bugs will get them, the same holds for the ASH as the Emerald ash borer is heading that way.   Both of them would work for the Morel fodder though as the Morel spore like/need the dead & dieing roots.  The thing is the Morels are not a real money maker but they are good to eat...   Buying some off criegs list will get you more mushrooms with less work...    It has been a good year for Morels though...   

Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Offline beenthere

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2011, 12:06:19 AM »
Welcome to the forum. Spongiform, does the name indicate you are a collector of shrooms?
south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline Spongiform

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2011, 12:12:31 AM »
Thanks for the welcome.

The nickname is a loose reference to mad cow disease (bovine spongiform encephalophy).
Taken literally it means sponge-like. (ie: cow sponge brain)

I am an amatuer mycologist and can been learning to find and identify some wild mushrooms.  Always have to be 120% sure you're eating something safe and also preparing it properly.  Lots of mushrooms can cause issues if not cooked properly.


Offline tyb525

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2011, 12:30:55 AM »
We have American Elms here that are 20"+, along with smaller ones, the Dutch elm hasn't touched them since the 90's.

I have heard tulip poplar is good for mushrooms also. Have you considered them?
LT10G10, Stihl 038 Magnum, many woodworking tools. Currently a farm service applicator, trying to find time to saw!

Offline KBforester

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2011, 05:20:41 AM »
I personally would stay away from either. Dutch elm disease and Emerald Ash borer. If EAB isn't in your neiborhod yet, it probably will be one day. Ash isn't worth much these days either... partly as a result of EAB flooding the market with salvage/pre salvage material. Its to bad, I really like ash and it doesn't do have bad planted.

If your going to go for intensive management, similar to agro-forestry, I'd go with a valuable species. Your in Ohio so I assume you soils are pretty good? Something that would get you a good return.

Recommended book: http://www.amazon.com/North-American-Agroforestry-Integrated-Practice/dp/0891181423

Trees are good.

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2011, 05:43:05 AM »
Some elm will stand for decades untouched in an open field or on a  lawn, then it happens the dutch elm strikes because of a bark beetle. Parts of my woods is full of elm, moose won't touch it much because I think it is tough to snap off branch tips compared to red maple. It grows on the woodlot on the wetter soils mixed with cedar, red maple, aspen, willow and black ash.
Move'n on.

Offline Spongiform

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2011, 12:51:16 PM »
Found a map of the known infestations.

http://www.agri.ohio.gov/public_docs/eab_maps/eab-map-infestation.pdf

I'm in the corner of Athens County right up against washington.

I'd really like to do a tree species that also promotes edible mushroom growth and I do have options aside from morels.   Oak's support both Chanterelles and Porcini's. Plus you can eat the acorns.  Would oak be a reasonable type to grow in a grove based on my conditions?


Offline KBforester

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2011, 01:57:27 PM »
I think oak would be a good choice. Keep wildlife around too.
Trees are good.

Offline Spongiform

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2011, 09:03:27 PM »
How far apart should they be planted?  My first guess would be enough room to use the riding mower between rows/columns factoring in for the eventual size of the trunk.


Offline SPIKER

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2011, 10:00:13 PM »
for the most part it will depend on what you want to plant (years old of tree sapling or acorn)  you can also grow some nice Satitaki spelling?   I have some on some red oak now.

one thing is Oak are slow growing and will take years to get to size.   What kind of time frame are you looking for?   Most mushrooms will get going pretty good if seeded with spore to get the species you want going.   If you are wanting faster rewards you may want to look to buying some logs.   look for a local logger or sawmill & or a landscape tree removal people & ask for bad poor logs & let them know what you are after them for.   

I bought spore from "Fungi-Perfect" but so far only the shataki are doing well first year I had them growing & got a nice batch last week too.   
Mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Offline craigc

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2011, 11:17:57 AM »
We always find them around cottonwood stumps the second year after the harvest.
Rottne SMV, Timbco with Logmax 9000, JD 540B Grapple.

Offline Spongiform

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2011, 01:49:35 PM »
I think you mean Shiitake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiitake

They grow on dead or dying trees.   I do plan on starting a "log garden" which is firewood size logs inoculated with live mushroom cultures.    Nice thing about these is they will fruit pretty much on their own for up to 10 years.   

Porcini's, Morels and Chanterelles form mutually beneficial relationships with live tree roots.
This also makes them extremely difficult to grow indoors.  The quantities also are typically low as they will only take a small amount of nutrients from the host tree, as it not harm it.


Offline craigc

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2011, 10:07:43 PM »
No, these are yellow sponge morels found 2 gallons around cottonwood trees we cut 2 years ago. Works everytime.
Rottne SMV, Timbco with Logmax 9000, JD 540B Grapple.

Offline Spongiform

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2011, 10:38:31 PM »
This was my first year morel hunting.  Found the majority of them on live ash/elm and a couple little patches on dead elm.

I'm going to start collecting cuttings from a particularly nice oak tomorrow and see if I can't get them rooted.

Never done it with oak before but had success with other stuff.

Offline SPIKER

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2011, 10:56:38 PM »
Are you talking about attempting to propagate Oak though cuttings?   I dont think you will be very successful with that endeavor some trees are very good to try this with but Oak is not one of them from what I know.   In Ohio there are not many species that can be grown thru cuttings, Pussy-Willows, regular Willows and Cottonwoods and a few others can be grown using the cuttings method though.   

If you want Oak the best bet is to find a couple Oaks that you like their form and get some acorns from them & plant them in mid to late fall.   digging up a stray sapling or two will work but they are deep tap roots so you need to get good at digging deep also late fall AFTER leaves are dropping or early spring prior to the thaw being completely done.   

lots of work getting a woods going with the species you want in them.   Well worth in in the long run be sure to look at many different species and areas local for seed and or ideas as to the type of trees you want and will be getting going.

mark
I'm looking for help all the shrinks have given up on me :o

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2011, 03:54:33 AM »
If he's only talking about 135 foot square piece it isn't going to take long to plant. ;)
Move'n on.

Offline Spongiform

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Re: American Elm Grove Or Ash
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2011, 01:14:32 PM »
Going to take about a dozen cuttings today and see if they'll grow roots.  If it works I'll just keep doing a dozen at a time until I run out of space.

Might be a bit slow but it's free and easy :-D



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