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Author Topic: Does our generation have the right?  (Read 3826 times)

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Offline wdncno

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Does our generation have the right?
« on: June 18, 2012, 09:29:20 AM »
I've been cutting up western red cedar planking for a Peterborough style canoe. Planking is 1 1/2" wide.  Most of these planks are quarter sawn and I counted the growth rings in one of them. 87 years in one piece.  Considering that this must be old growth, and the tree was probably at least five feet in diameter that works out to 30 times 58  or 1740 years old. It had been left standing for more than twenty generations of humans.

I bought this in 20 foot 2 x 4's at a local building supply store which brings this in so rich folks can have clear cedar decks and docks.

Makes me wonder what gives us the right.  When these trees are all gone humans will never see them again.

Offline beenthere

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2012, 10:02:35 AM »
wdnco
Are you feeling guilty that you are the "rich" that can afford the luxury of building a canoe with Western red cedar planking?  ;)

south central Wisconsin
 It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others

Offline Kemper

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2012, 10:14:00 AM »
Maybe it fell.

Offline Gary_C

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2012, 11:59:43 AM »
Makes me wonder what gives us the right.  When these trees are all gone humans will never see them again.

As far as I know, nothing has been granted eternal life. And even though that specific tree is gone, there is another growing somewhere.

And as far as "the right," you could also ask about your right to breathe in oxygen and turn it into carbon dioxide. No one is going to see that particular pair of molecules of oxygen again until some new growing tree converts it back into a molecule of oxygen again.

It's all about recycling. Have you signed up to be an organ and tissue donor yet?
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline stoneeaglefarm

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2012, 06:53:01 PM »
If a person who trurly loves and loves working with wood has to question ones self about the wood he is working with then he should not be working with it, Wood will be cut down for the next 100 years as it was cut down for the 100 years before that, If a man or women goes to a lumber yard and buys wood to create a thing of beauty then do not get TO DEEP about were the wood came from, Trees are trees, The are just huge vegetables that serve a purpose, Enjoy building your boat, You did not cut down the tree, You are just the lucky one who got part of its heart, Why is it so many folks today have to justify were and what they do as far as wood, water, food and thought.

Online snowstorm

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2012, 08:28:12 PM »
If a person who trurly loves and loves working with wood has to question ones self about the wood he is working with then he should not be working with it, Wood will be cut down for the next 100 years as it was cut down for the 100 years before that, If a man or women goes to a lumber yard and buys wood to create a thing of beauty then do not get TO DEEP about were the wood came from, Trees are trees, The are just huge vegetables that serve a purpose, Enjoy building your boat, You did not cut down the tree, You are just the lucky one who got part of its heart, Why is it so many folks today have to justify were and what they do as far as wood, water, food and thought.
well said

Offline BBTom

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2012, 08:54:25 PM »
What breaks my heart is seeing all the dead fallen redwoods that cannot be moved, used or even cut a path through.
   
There are thousands of acres of them.  If they fall across a path the forest service has to build steps over them.  Hundreds of these huge majestic trees with thousands of BF each that are laying there waiting to rot away because they are protected to the point of ridiculousness.

savetheredwoods.org tells us to be alarmed because only about 100000 acres of the original or "old-growth" redwood forest remain today.  They are buying as much as they can to prevent any form of logging.

Don't worry too much about the redwoods.  Ash trees might be all gone in 10 years, but redwoods will be here for a long time.
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Offline KBforester

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2012, 09:17:29 PM »
Planking is 1 1/2" wide.  Most of these planks are quarter sawn and I counted the growth rings in one of them. 87 years in one piece.  Considering that this must be old growth, and the tree was probably at least five feet in diameter that works out to 30 times 58  or 1740 years old. It had been left standing for more than twenty generations of humans.

Well I'm going to come out and say your math doesn't work in real life. Western Red cedar live to be about 800 years old. Trees are not static. They are living, dynamic things.

How much weight did you gain between the ages of 8 and 18 years old? How many did you gain between the ages of 40 and 48? Hopefully not the same amount. Trees grow rapidly at early ages and then slow down considerably. Whats more, trees adding the SAME volume every year must get thinner and thinner growth rings every year just to cover a larger circumference every year. If you had some wood from the heart, you may have gotten 12 rings or more in that 1.5 inch board.

I have no doubt that the tree was big, and likely old growth. But 1740 years old would blow all the red cedar records out of the water.

I'm not questioning your feelings about using the lumber, just adding my two cents about tree biology.
Trees are good.

Offline Woodchuck53

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 04:37:25 AM »
As a matter of respect I have probably planted 10 to 1 of the trees I have taken down. That being said land owners were going to have them down no matter what. I have planted many a pine 5000 or better and about 200 cypress and that is just here on my place. When you use wood the way I think the most of us do then it is our right to. Most all the fire wood I have ever cut came from logging left overs and there fore was not wasted. I hate the raking of leaves but I love my trees in the yard and hate it when a drought takes one of my Red Oakes.

Just my 2 cents. Ya'll stay safe.
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Offline Ianab

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 05:12:12 AM »
Forests and Trees are 2 different things.

If you harvest a tree, and leave the forest to regrow (or encourage it by planting or management)  then you still have a forest. You still have Cedar trees, just young healthy ones for the next hundred years. The trees might not be 500 years old for another 499 years, but the forest is still there.

The time scale might be longer than our lifespan, but it doesn't mean you can't treat it like a crop. Just with a REALLY long rotation.

Now destroying a forest, paving it over so no tree ever grows again is a problem.... But no the same as taking out an old tree that's near the end of it's life anyway.

Ian
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Offline thecfarm

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 06:14:40 AM »
As long as the tree is used and not just cut down and left there to rot. But even just left there to rot will serve a lot of bugs and wildlife and add nutrients to the ground .
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Offline MJD

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 07:03:09 AM »
Everything in this world comes from one or the other, either its grown or its mined.

Offline wdncno

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 08:29:54 AM »
Thanks for the comments.  I don't feel guilty- just thoughtful.  My concern is with the logging in BC. Clearcuts will never be the same.  I have a friend who is 74 and he has been logging his bush since he was 14 and it is still producing fine white cedar. Beenthere- I guess I am rich- The same good wife for 37 years, great kids, and I work for my self  doing mostly what I want.

Offline grassfed

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2012, 09:28:28 AM »
Dude the tree was old! Do you think that it was going to live to be 3400 years... probably not. If you were harvesting humans do you think that it would be more moral/sustainable to kill the 30 year olds or the 120 year olds. The only reason that tree made it was a combination of luck and vigor; thousands of other trees competed with that tree during it's life and did not make it. If that tree reproduced during it's life then it is redundant if it did not reproduce after all this time then it is a waste of space. In a dynamic ecosystem natural selection requires genetic variation that occurs over many many different life cycles. Clear cuts are a different topic; but nature loves a tabula rasa and to the victor goes the spoils...       
Mike

Offline Ed_K

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2012, 07:09:15 PM »
 I agree, a lot of us are rich in that aspect,way to go  8) .
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Offline log cutter

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2012, 11:54:37 PM »
Wdnco what do you mean clearcuts will never be the same? I can show you a lot of clearcuts that have regenerated. If you would drive by you would never know that they were a clearcut.  Clearcuts that never regenerate usaully have houses  and pavement and shopping centers in them. 
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Offline terry f

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2012, 03:18:08 AM »
     I think he was saying they will never be the same in our lifetime, or your great, great, great grandkids lifetime. Wdncno, I wouldn't feel too bad, at least you put it to good use. I don't know how it is in Canada, but I think we'd do fine without cutting any oldgrowth on federal land. Letting a few trees die of old age, isn't all bad. Around here they are called snags or wildlife trees, and you can't cut anything for firewood over 21 inches, standing or down.

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2012, 05:25:02 AM »
Many years ago, and on another forum, there was a Canadian forester that would talk about making management plans at 400 yr rotation cycles.  That type of planning also took it through many cuttings and many forest successions. 

We've had clearcuts here in the East that have lasted for centuries.  They're called fields and pastures.  Many of the failed farms have now converted back to forest. 

Our state forestry system was started by Gifford Pinchot.  The original purpose was to contain wildfires from the trains that were spewing ash.  The accepted thinking was that our forests would be forever in the shrub stage, since most of the old growth was gone and there was a lot of cutting for fuelwood.  But, we now have new forests with old growth.  Its all in the management.
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Offline sealark37

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2012, 08:43:04 AM »
"Will never be the same in our lifetime"  has no meaning in the natural world.  Trees will be growing on the Earth long after the human species is extinct.  Individual organisms as well as species live and die.  We have a limited time to function as part of nature.  Enjoy that time.  You have the right.  Regards, Clark

Offline Phorester

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Re: Does our generation have the right?
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2012, 10:29:52 AM »

As my message under my user name says, you can't have a healthy forest without cutting trees.  Also, humans cannot live on this planet without cutting trees.  We cannot live on this planet without planting trees.

Yes, we have the right to cut trees. But with that right comes the responsibility to manage forests properly for future generations of people and wildlife.
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