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Author Topic: barrel staves  (Read 4781 times)

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Offline els512

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barrel staves
« on: August 25, 2014, 05:04:48 PM »
I have been approached by a customer to give a price on making white oak quarter sawn barrel staves.  They need to be 5/4 thick rough sawn and random widths.  There is no other processing involved.  The question is Can anyone advise as to how much others are getting paid for this product.  As anyone knows this is a special application and the wood needs to be the best quality and sawn correctly.  I would like to get a ballpark figure so i don't sell the services too cheap but still remain competitive.  Thanks in advance  Eric

Offline beenthere

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #1 on: August 25, 2014, 05:26:20 PM »
I don't know what barrel staves sell for, but think you would want to know a few things about your production capability with your mill setup, and as well have a pretty good idea where you can get a supply of high quality white oak delivered (or where you can pick up), and have a good idea what you will do with the white oak that doesn't pass their quality specs. From that information, you can put your numbers together to see what you would need for staves so you end up with a profit.

From what I have heard, they have pretty high standards and it takes a good log to satisfy the buyers.

Would be interested to know more about what they will accept.
 
Are you interested in a board foot price, or a weight price? What are the moisture content specs like?

How much volume do you think you can saw and sell a month?
south central Wisconsin
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Offline drobertson

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #2 on: August 25, 2014, 06:15:26 PM »
this almost has the smaller operation ring to it?  And with this I would find the clearest butt logs available, saw a few out, do a sample for the customer, and calculate your time and materials.   You must account for the raw cost of the logs, 1100/th.? not sure of your area, then figure the finish product tally.  It will most likely be a few trial runs on this project.  Hope you get it figured out, no reason for it not to work out, and as you mentioned, don't give it away,
only have a few chain saws I'm not suppose to use, but will at times, one dog Dolly, pretty good dog, just not sure what for yet,  working on getting the gardening back in order, and kinda thinking on maybe a small bbq bizz,  thinking about it,

Offline els512

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #3 on: August 25, 2014, 06:37:17 PM »
The guy is starting out and he is buying staves from overseas right now because the oak needs to be seasoned.  So its a tricky situation and each of us are trying to feel each other out.  I'm not going to stick my neck out and build up a supply and then have him possibly fold up because no one is buying his barrels.  He makes a good barrel and I have seen his operation, its small so maybe we can grow together. I was thinking about 2 dollars a board foot

Offline red oaks lumber

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #4 on: August 25, 2014, 08:26:29 PM »
stave spec's are quite tight but, it can be done. we are getting $ 4.00/ b.f. we dry to 12-14% m.c. lower heat kiln
the experts think i do things wrong
 over 18 million b.f. processed and 7341 happy customers i disagree

Offline woodmills1

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2014, 08:30:56 PM »
I get a minimum of 2 and as much as 4 dollars a bd ft for quartered oak.
I sell to a barrel maker and he takes both white, for wet barrels and red for dry.  If he needs something specific I get the 3 to 4 range, and If I have a log that will work for him I get the 2 to 3 range.  I sell only the true quartered boards to him, and as stated you need a market for the flat and rift that comes out even if you are careful.  also, he buys it all green and dries it himself, though I give him the stickers.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Offline Leigh Family Farm

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2014, 09:45:21 PM »
Since you are both starting out, I would mention to the buyer that your price could increase once the final production tally comes in. Start at what you think will cover all of your costs  mentioned by others (logs, time, equipment, drying, etc.) and be prepared to adjust upwards as needed.

Have you thought about having him buy the logs? You source the logs that will meet his specs and he buys them. that might take some of the cost away from you. Then any boards that don't meet his specs get sold off on a consignment kinda deal. Would this even work? I have know idea but just came up with it. He buys said log for $500 (yes its the cream of the crop, ultimate beauty of a log  ;D) and you saw it up. It costs you $500 in labor and equipment to saw the log. He takes all the boards that meet his criteria and anything left is sold on halves. You make $500+halves and he gets his wood for $1000-halves. The key is can that one log make enough wood for several barrels...I don't know enough about coopering but that would be good info to know. Just some random thoughts going through my brain...
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Offline Ianab

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2014, 10:38:35 PM »
Custom sawing like this is where you can make money with a smaller sawmill operation. A larger mill wont want to disrupt production for a few minutes of custom work. But with a smaller operation it's a 1/2 day job, for good $.

I would also suggest you find out his exact specs and cut a sample batch. Now you have an idea of the production cost, and he knows the quality of your product. Then you can negotiate a fair price.
 
You dont want to bet the farm on the job, but this is the sort of specialised work you should be chasing

Ian
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Offline els512

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2014, 11:37:50 PM »
Thanks Guys  Now I have an idea of where to start when we are talking prices.  I played around with a log today and measured up the amount of BF that resulted.  I looked at the staves that he had in stock and know what he wants.  Now I know what I can pay for the logs and still make a profit.  I am a small operation and specialize in cutting oddball stuff that the other guys don't want to handle so this is something I think would be good for me.  I don't have to handle big logs and can get a lot of my supply from the tree trimmers and land clearers  On long Island there is not a great deal of tall forest trees so these guys are going to have to do for now.  He also wants black locust since the winemakers are beginning to use it for white wine so maybe something for other guys cutting staves to look into 

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2014, 05:43:30 AM »
I don't think you'll be able to buy white oak stave logs for $500/Mbf.  Good sawlogs are priced higher than that.  You'll have to be very picky to get any.  You will have to know what defects to look for, and how any defect will affect your yield. 
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Offline bigred1951

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2014, 11:42:01 AM »
I have no clue about staves or nothing just have heard about them here and there. But in my area they are starting to build a big stave mill. They have the property about ready now its suppose to be a big operation costing millions to build. In the paper article about it they was saying they took a loan for a million or so just to buy heavy equipment. They are already starting to buy logs. My uncle stopped and talked to them they told him that the other couple small stave mills in the area might as well go ahead and close their doors. They told him they was paying around $1.05 bft and up depending on the log. They said that logs that maybe had a knot on one side would be ok but they wanted straight perfect logs.

Offline woodmills1

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2014, 09:02:09 PM »
having a cooper for a customer can allow a small sawmill much lattitude concerning other jobs.  First I would say is how you are going to get your log supply.  If you have to pay top dollar for logs even a cooper will not make you get to break even or more.  When I started I took all logs that no one else wanted, most with nails or with some center defects.  I cut what I could from them and dealt with huge amounts of metal, but I got a customer base including a cooper.  So, on a free large oak with obvious metal I used a many times sharpened blade till it hit metal, then a good newer one to finish.  Learn how to quarter correctly, treat your cooper right  and try to not get too much into paying too much for logs.
James Mills,Lovely wife,collect old tools,vacuuming fool,36 bdft/hr,oak paper cutter,ebonic yooper rapper nauga seller, Blue Ox? its not fast, 2 cat family, LT70,edger, 375 bd ft/hr, we like Bob,free heat,no oil 12 years,big splitter, baked stuffed lobster, still cuttin the logs dere IAM

Offline ozarkgem

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2014, 08:37:14 PM »
I saw an ad locally wanting White Oak logs. They were paying 1.75 per BF
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Offline dboyt

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2014, 07:17:48 AM »
I saw an ad locally wanting White Oak logs. They were paying 1.75 per BF
That's probably McGinnis.  They just put in a stave mill & barrel making factory in Pierce City.  $1.75 is pretty good money, but they're picky about their logs.   There was an article about them in the last Sawmill & Woodlot Management magazine.
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Offline ozarkgem

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2014, 06:57:06 PM »
I saw an ad locally wanting White Oak logs. They were paying 1.75 per BF
That's probably McGinnis.  They just put in a stave mill & barrel making factory in Pierce City.  $1.75 is pretty good money, but they're picky about their logs.   There was an article about them in the last Sawmill & Woodlot Management magazine.
Bet thats right. When did they open a mill there?
Mighty Mite Band Mill, Case Backhoe, 763 Bobcat, Ford 3400 w/FEL , 1962 Ford 4000, Int dump truck, Clark forklift, lots of trailers. Stihl 046 Magnum, 029 Stihl. complete machine shop to keep everything going.

Offline dboyt

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2014, 07:50:49 AM »
I think it was last December.  They're still building it up.  It is a complete barrel making facility, starting from the stave bolts.  They buy logs, delivered to the mill.  The main factory is in Cuba, MO and they produce around 600 barrels a day!
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Offline 47sawdust

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2014, 06:07:53 PM »
Great article by Dave Boyt in Sawmill& woodlot magazine about barrel making.Their is a lot to doing it right.Thanks,Dave
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Offline dboyt

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Re: barrel staves
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2014, 01:34:35 PM »
Great article by Dave Boyt in Sawmill& woodlot magazine about barrel making.Their is a lot to doing it right.Thanks,Dave

Thanks.  I really enjoy getting out and seeing places like that!  Got the Firewood Processor Shoot-Out coming up... that'll keep me busy for a while!
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