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Author Topic: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening  (Read 3175 times)

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Offline Don P

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2018, 09:25:59 PM »
The problem with either is really that unbraced portal frame. If you could run out to say 24' and have a 4' solid wall section that houses a tool or equipment room at one end that would go a long ways towards bracing the opening. A bracing wall at both ends even better.

This is another way to build a braced opening with narrow sidewall sections;
http://www.anthonyforest.com/assets/pdf/apa/glulam/Tech_Topics_A_Portal_Frame.pdf
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2018, 11:23:23 PM »
One of mine has an opening that size. I used a flitch beam comprising two 12x2's and 1/4" corten plate. Its way overkill... after the kiln falls over i think ill use it for a bridge girder.

My door is built on 3" aluminium RHS frame with a fair bit of cross bracing for strength without excessive weight, "marine ply skins, foam filled. Due to a breakdown of the other unit he kiln was commissioned before i got to hinge the door (plan A had big hinges one side and a support wheel for the far end. The single big door rather than two smaller ones was to get a better seal) so I just lifted the door into place with the forklift and cranked her up.

2 years later I still lift the door into place with a forklift: It's not much slower then swinging doors would be without the footprint of a swinging door, it seals like a bottle, and if it aint broke dont fix it.

Honestly I'd talk to some coldroom installation guys - they can probably do a nice lightweight SIP panel door with a good seal for half the price of building your own and you'll get a better job.
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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2018, 12:10:01 AM »
 I have a couple pics.
With the gable directly over the door, it is a free span structure, non load bearing.  I constructed the beefy doorframe header not for the roof strength, but as a top brace and anchor for the top end of the side door jams, which is where the hinges attach to the building.  It must be very strong or the weight of the cantilevered doors will cause sagging.  I put a half a dozen hinges on each door, and it still has some give.  The doors are constructed as lightweight as possible, with the foam insulation, and are stiffened using glue and screws and plywood.  I screwed the sill into the concrete.

 

Notice the face seals on the doors on the door frame, and matching foam on the doors for them to seal.  








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Offline scsmith42

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2018, 05:25:38 PM »
I like the idea of Scott's truss. A steel truss with steel posts, might be able to simply span it with pan deck from that header to the back wall without further framing... the steel shop should be able to design and quote any or all of that.
Here is how mine is designed.  

The bottom is comprised of three 2x12's sandwiched together (and glued).  The parallel chord truss above is glued with construction adhesive and screwed to the 2x12's.  It is a 20' span.

Not shown in the photo is the 1/2" plywood that was attached in full sheets covering the 2x12's and truss.  It too was glued well and nailed close.  For that matter, all of the exterior plywood was glued and nailed.  I did this in order minimize racking in all directions and to add a lot of shear strength.

Finally, on the inside the truss was filled with closed cell spray foam, as was the rest of the kiln walls and floor.

No issues with sagging at all.

On a side note, the kiln is designed for 2000 bd ft of 4/4 oak in two stacks side by side 4' deep, 8.5" wide and stacked 30 layers high with 3/4" stickers 18" on center.

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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2018, 06:51:36 AM »
Here is how mine is designed.   The bottom is comprised of three 2x12's sandwiched together (and glued).  The parallel chord truss above is glued with construction adhesive and screwed to the 2x12's.  It is a 20' span


This is awesome and very helpful! Thanks much! That would seem to be a design that would work well for me and and aesthetic that I can get past the War Dept.

A few questions, if I may:

  • Are the 2x12 headers all single-board spans? (the pic looks like the front one is two pieces)?
  • Is the chord truss engineered design (is there a spec for it) or did you just make it to what you thought was right?
  • The sides are of concern as elaborated above. Can you outline that a little too? I'm assuming that it's more 2x12's stacked and glued?
  • What is your front opening height and how high is the total structure in the front?

Thanks for your efforts and picture posting!

I think this design with Yellow's idea of a metal door frame is what I'll do.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2018, 08:25:46 AM »
I would go with aluminum door frames, no rust and light weight.

Full opening fold back hinges so if you hang an end of a pallet of wood loading the kiln, (you will eventaully) the doors are opened completely out of the way and you will only scuff the door opening and rip the seal off that, not the doors. Not that I've ever done it, a couple times.  

Remember that if you are going to drive your skidsteer in through the door you can't cant have a raised wooden door threshold or it will get torn up in a hurry.  So the bottom door seal will be against concrete, or a garage door type floor seal on the concrete to meet the bottom door seal.

Here's a picture of a Kiln Direct one, I used some of these ideas for mine, many years ago.
Notice all the hinges, face seals of both the doors and the door frame, lots of cam lock clamps on the door frame top to keep the doors pressed against the seals.  


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Offline scsmith42

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2018, 09:58:06 PM »
Here is how mine is designed.   The bottom is comprised of three 2x12's sandwiched together (and glued).  The parallel chord truss above is glued with construction adhesive and screwed to the 2x12's.  It is a 20' span


This is awesome and very helpful! Thanks much! That would seem to be a design that would work well for me and and aesthetic that I can get past the War Dept.

A few questions, if I may:

  • Are the 2x12 headers all single-board spans? (the pic looks like the front one is two pieces)?
  • Is the chord truss engineered design (is there a spec for it) or did you just make it to what you thought was right?
  • The sides are of concern as elaborated above. Can you outline that a little too? I'm assuming that it's more 2x12's stacked and glued?
  • What is your front opening height and how high is the total structure in the front?

Thanks for your efforts and picture posting!

I think this design with Yellow's idea of a metal door frame is what I'll do.
The 2x12s were 16 footers so there is a spice in each layer (offset across all three layers).
I swagged the truss design.  One thing we messed up was that my guys installed the truss upside down on the header.  The diagonal members should be pointed up and towards the center.  It was already glued and screwed when I checked on them, but with the exterior plywood glued on it has not budged at all.
Im not sure what youre asking about the sides.  The corner posts are multiple stacked 2x6s with plywood glued and nailed on the outside of all walls.  
Door opening is approximately 8 tall.  Overall height on the door side is about 14.  I designed it this way in order to allow me to fork our standard kiln stacks into it (the standard VT design requires 5 deep stacks in order to fill to capacity, but my Nyle carts are based upon 4 stack depth).
Basically I started with Genes VT design, narrowed the depth by a foot and increased the height at the bottom by 3 in order to accommodate my standard kiln stacks.  I also widened it up.
IMO a metal structure would not require the extent of material that the wood one does.  Aluminum frames with foam infill for the doors would be a great way to go (as per Roberts recommendation).
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2018, 06:32:58 AM »
Thanks once more for the elaboration on your design. I have the slab painted, so need to start building. I used Polycuramine, (Rustoleum's Rock Solid) which is alleged to be 20x more durable than epoxy.

Been a bit distracted by just purchasing a LARGE load of walnut logs, planting 150 fir, spruce and white pine trees, seeding the hill with mega-pounds of clover for the bees, and last but not least, installing the new V3 debarked on my 40Wide, so that it reaches in far enough to debark smaller logs too. Thanks WoodMizer for the gratis upgrade to making this right.

Excuses don't dry wood though, so need to bust-a-move!  :D

Pix of Rock solid floor coating. Time to frame. (had J-bolts ready to place during concrete work, but got to it too late...concrete was too setup, so will drill and anchor.)  :'(


I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

Offline Don P

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2018, 08:10:46 AM »
Another one that might help with header design. You'll need to register but they don't spam. Go to apawood.org and search for z416 "Nailed structural-use panel and lumber beams". I would use full height 6x6 solid posts as part of the end assembly, using the header ply to brace the posts from the deep beam as well as possible.

A little construction geek stuff. The concrete and inspection folks prohibit "wet stabbing" anchor bolts into concrete. What usually happens is the bolt pushes the aggregate down and just cream flows up around and over the hook providing little strength. They want to see us hang them from the formwork prior to the pour and pour around them nowadays. Actually that kind of forces us to get them in the right line and to the correct depth but it does take more time.
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Offline Crusarius

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2018, 12:40:52 PM »
I would love to know how well that floor holds up. Did you do any grinding or acid washing for surface prep?

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2018, 01:19:15 PM »
I would love to know how well that floor holds up. Did you do any grinding or acid washing for surface prep?


I'll report back at a later date. I did not etch, since it was a new pour. I left the surface a little rough to help with adhesion. I put the little specs on there so it would look better once scratched-up, etc.

It's also cool, so when I retire from lumber, I can make it into a man-cave, complete with bourbon tap. 8)

I have an aluminum door set and frame being manufactured too. Gonna cost more per sq ft than my house! :o
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2018, 11:14:13 PM »
You might consider getting the door seals from Nyle ASAP.  Then get them to the metal guy and have him mount it.
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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2019, 08:22:53 AM »
Well, 15 months later...kiln build is almost done and ready to build and hang doors. My metal guy ghosted me, so going with wood for now: light as possible build, wood frame, 5" (two layers) of polyiso in center, and some VERY light skin to cover, either in metal or something like 1/4" pine B&B to match rest of build. 

Of course, lot of seals and cam-locks to hold them tight.

Anyone have info/links for really great super-duty hinges? The sides have solid oak 8x8's to bolt or lag to, so I don't see issues there.
Thanks in advance.

p.s. I'll post some pix asap.
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
LT40HD Wide 35HP Diesel
Peterson Dedicated Wide Slabber
Kubota M62 Tractor/Backhoe
WoodMizer KD250 Kiln
Northland 800 Kiln

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2019, 08:51:50 AM »
P.A. Walnut, when you get that all done come up here and build me one!

Offline Crusarius

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2019, 09:38:53 AM »
PA tractor supply has barrel hinges. they work very well for very heavy doors. I had a shed that had a 15' opening and two very large doors. they worked great.

Here is a link for one half of the hinge.
https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/national-hardware-n131-409-298bc-pintle-zinc-plated

here is the other half.
https://www.amazon.com/National-Hardware-N131-060-294BC-plated/dp/B000BQT1JE/ref=asc_df_B000BQT1JE/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=168556243666&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17810590222632361197&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9005646&hvtargid=aud-799727667774:pla-305765441651&psc=1

I have had very good luck with them. You can get them both at tractor supply but their website is less than stellar when searching.

Offline Don P

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2019, 06:36:54 PM »
We just used the largest strap hinges that would fit and struc screws. The doors are ~8x8, 1/2" ply 2x framing with 2 layers of foam. I've been thinking about trying layflat hose wrapped around the doors and pumping it up to form a seal.
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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2019, 07:34:54 AM »
Another large kiln opening in need of a door.  As you can see in pic my kiln is in the back of a building.   I am thinking a bifold, airplane hanger type door to save space in front of the kiln.    Opening is 24'    any ideas on how to make light door that will be rigid as it goes from verticle to horizontal?
My header is a 12" double LVL.

 
 

Offline scsmith42

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2019, 08:32:56 AM »
Another large kiln opening in need of a door.  As you can see in pic my kiln is in the back of a building.   I am thinking a bifold, airplane hanger type door to save space in front of the kiln.    Opening is 24'    any ideas on how to make light door that will be rigid as it goes from verticle to horizontal?
My header is a 12" double LVL.
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
Since youre indoors on a slab, a roller wheel mounted outside the doors at the bottom of the doors will relieve a lot of stress from the door hinges.
However a horizontal bi-fold door wouldnt be a bad option either.  Probably get a better seal on it.
Peterson 10" WPF with 65' of track
Smith - Gallagher dedicated slabber
Tom's 3638D Baker band mill
and a mix of log handling heavy equipment.

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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2019, 10:02:47 AM »
Something to keep in mind if your kiln is on a pad larger than the chamber is that the concrete will suck the heat out of the kiln. I recommend an insulated floor on top of the pad.
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Re: Kiln Doors and Large Span OPening
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2019, 01:23:44 PM »
Thx for the warning.   I have pex tubes in the floor and intended on firing up the zones under the kiln and in the office behind the kiln this winter.     Next summer when I've realized some cash flow I would like to insulate the main building and keep the whole thing warm next winter.
  I had not thought of heat creep out of the zones under the kiln.    May have to bite bullet and just deal with it this winter.   Most of my wood is sub 20% moisture so it should be a short kiln time.    I think 3 or four fills and I'll have enough dry wood to sell  untill warmer weather kicks in



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