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Author Topic: Rope  (Read 2778 times)

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Offline 21incher

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Rope
« on: May 13, 2018, 07:53:53 AM »
I am looking to buy a good piece of rope about 100 feet long to be used for a little extra pull on trees that are leaning in the wrong direction and need some guidance when cutting. I also have block and tackle pulleys for a little extra pull that looks like it uses 1/2" rope. I would like it to be strong, flexible and easy to coil also. l see there are many different brands, materials, types and strength ratings available and was wondering what others are using and if there are any brands or materials that are superior. thanks.   :)
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Offline Chuck White

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Re: Rope
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2018, 08:05:31 AM »
My best suggestion would be to check the label on the coils to see what the tensile strength is on several choices!
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Offline sprucebunny

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Re: Rope
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2018, 08:43:04 AM »
I get end-of-spool lengths from a marine supplier. It's probably about 4000 pound for 1/2". Braided. Some stretches more than others but less than twisted nylon rope.
They also sell 92 foot lengths of "Amsteel Blue" type rope for less than $1/foot. At 1/2", that stuff is about 10,000 pounds. Don't know if you can find the same sort of deal.....
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Offline btulloh

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Re: Rope
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2018, 08:55:06 AM »
Bailey's is a good place to order rope.  Local marine outlets around here tend to be a lot higher priced and they don't really have the best choices for  arborist work.  Bailey's will give a good reference point even if you don't end up buying there.
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Offline bill m

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Re: Rope
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2018, 09:07:31 AM »
Vermeer is now carrying arborist supplies and would be a good local source. I know there is a dealer in Castleton N.Y. Also George Kahler Sales in Rome N.Y. has rope. They would also be a good source.
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Re: Rope
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2018, 02:02:55 PM »
Samson and New England Rope are two manufactures that make arborist ropes. Rigging ropes are usually double braid. Three strand will be cheaper, weaker, and less manageable. 
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Offline 21incher

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Re: Rope
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2018, 03:24:18 PM »
Thanks everyone.

Bailey's is a good place to order rope.  Local marine outlets around here tend to be a lot higher priced and they don't really have the best choices for  arborist work.  Bailey's will give a good reference point even if you don't end up buying there.


Thanks, I forgot about their site and see they have a good selection with all the specs. It looks like I will go with the Samson 1/2" Stable Braid Blue Bull Rope. It looks to have a 10,400 breaking strength and a 2100 pound working load which should be more then enough for what I need. It also has a coating that makes it more uv resistant and snag resistant. I quit buying from Baileys when they left the forum as a sponsor so I will have to look for another supplier. I guess that I will have to learn to splice in eyes next. :)
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Offline Greyhound

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Re: Rope
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2018, 03:40:51 PM »
If you are planning to use a Maasdam type rope puller, then you should definitely use 1/2' 3-strand, e.g. Sampson pro-master, New England safety blue.  The double-braid bull ropes may slip in the puller.

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Re: Rope
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2018, 05:35:00 PM »
We use the Maasdam puller as well, for the same job as described by the OP - persuading a back leaner tree to move the right way.
That puller is fabulous. It's light, powerful and doesn't run out of pulling distance - as long as there's rope, it'll keep on pulling.
Experience shows that a 1/2" rope in a three strand works best, and new rope needs to be "streached" out. Tie one end of your 100 ' rope to a tree and give it a few gentle yanks with a trailer hitch on a vehicle.
Baileys, Vermeer and a few others sell them online.
 We bought ours with the rope they recommended.
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Re: Rope
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2018, 07:36:33 PM »
Even Amazon has 1/2" bull rope for sale with free shipping, 150' for $123. The only bad thing with rope is the rubber band snap effect when it breaks so its best to get the thickest rope to handle the pulling power of your equipment .
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Offline 21incher

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Re: Rope
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2018, 07:37:09 PM »
Wow you guys are great. I had never heard of a massdam puller and that is exactly what I was looking for. Just ordered one from Home Depot.com with a 20 ft rope for $46.00 to get started with my existing rope as an extension and now looking for another 150 ft of the 3 strand rope for longer pulls. It is amazing how the experienced members of the forestry forum know exactly what is required and are willing to share with those of us just starting out.  8)
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Offline John Mc

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Re: Rope
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2018, 09:46:44 PM »
Make sure you get rope intended for this type of application. Some rope is designed to be elastic, some is designed to minimize that elastic stretch. You want the latter (the names most have referred to here are appropriate for this use). You do NOT want the type of rope rock climbers us. While it is incredibly strong, it's designed to be elastic - that elasticity cushions the jerk at the end of a long fall when climbing. However, the elasticity is also what makes the rope spring back with surprising force if it does break.

Spend some time to learn a few knots appropriate to what you are doing. Some knots reduce the breaking strength by half or more. Some are meant to be permanent - almost impossible to untie once they have been under load. Others are easy to untie even after repeated heavy loads.
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Re: Rope
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2018, 07:18:28 AM »
Saw the title and was hoping that you were not at the end of yours :)
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Re: Rope
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2018, 08:03:01 AM »
Yep, was afraid he had reached the bitter end...


Offline 21incher

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Re: Rope
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2018, 08:42:31 AM »
Yep, was afraid he had reached the bitter end...



Nope, not near the end yet.  The older I get, the less chance I am willing to take when dropping trees. Every man reaches a point in their life where they deserve a good piece of rope that is not knotted together from previous close calls. ;D

I also ordered a 200 ft length of of 1/2" Samson Pro Master Arborist 3 strand rigging line that is supposed to work well with the winch off ebay and now as John Mc says must learn to tie knots and splice eyes.  Thanks everyone.  :)
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Re: Rope
« Reply #15 on: May 14, 2018, 08:08:30 PM »
I must learn how to figure out how to not have to saw down trees.... :).
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Offline Don P

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Re: Rope
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2018, 06:52:28 AM »
A good while ago Mitch gave me some math for figuring out line pull on a leaner. It requires knowing a few variables we never really know in the field but does give some sense of the forces involved, especially as lean and/or rope angle gets worse;

http://forestryforum.com/members/donp/linepullclc.htm

Offline 21incher

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Re: Rope
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2018, 06:21:42 PM »
A good while ago Mitch gave me some math for figuring out line pull on a leaner. It requires knowing a few variables we never really know in the field but does give some sense of the forces involved, especially as lean and/or rope angle gets worse;

http://forestryforum.com/members/donp/linepullclc.htm
Thanks that is a great reference. I don't know how to estimate the weight of the tree or COG but it gives me a good idea of how the rope angle and height make a big difference in the pull force. :)

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Re: Rope
« Reply #18 on: May 15, 2018, 08:07:24 PM »
If your going to be pulling a lot of trees a Sherrill big shot might be a good investment to get your line way up in the tree. We have been using one with 200' of 3/4 Samson stable braid and a pulley, tied off to a tracked bobcat t300. That Samson stable braid bull rope is some strong rope. I sunk my 10000 pound bobcat in the muck on the edge of our pond and used 2 pulleys, samson 3/4 and a 3/4 ton gmc to walk it out. When i say sunk i mean buried in the muck past the tracks with mud coming in the cab through the door opening. My buddy said we were going to need a dozer to get it out. As far as knots go a bowline and running bowline are good knots that un tie fairly easily even after yanking on them with a bobcat or truck.  Those are the only two knots I use for pulling with rope.  Easy to tie and untie and they don't slip.
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Offline John Mc

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Re: Rope
« Reply #19 on: May 15, 2018, 10:56:11 PM »
Remember that all knots weaken the rope, some of them substantially. The old Boy Scout standby, the square knot reduces a rope to 45% of its rated strength. It's not something I use for anything other than tying my shoelaces or tying up a package with string.

Some of my favorite knots:

I use a bowline a fair amount. It's a relatively strong knot: retains 65% of the rope's breaking strength. Forms a non-slip loop which is fairly easy to untie even after it has been heavily loaded. There is a bit of a trick to tie one correctly, but once you get it, it's easy to remember. A convenient, quick knot to tie and untie when you don't need maximum strength from your rope.

A figure eight knot is one of the stronger ones around (75% of rope breaking strength). It makes a great stopper knot to keep the end of the rope from running through a piece of gear. A figure 8 follow-through is a strong way of joining 2 ropes together. A figure 8 on a bight is a stronger way (78%) of tying a non-slip loop than the bowline. Figure 8 knots generally can be untied even after heavy loading, but it may take more work than some other knots (like the bowline). Very easy to learn, easy to inspect for proper tying technique. I typically use this for stopper knots or to make a non-slip loop that I will be using for a while (takes longer to tie and untie than a bowline, but is stronger).

The Butterfly knot also makes a non-slip loop on a rope. very strong (80% of rope breaking strength). Added benefits: that you don't need access to the ends of the rope to tie it; once set, it forms a stable loop which can handle multi-directional loading (pull on either of the ends or the loop or all three); good for isolating a bad section of rope (no load is put on the loop unless you pull on the loop itself); fairly easy to untie even after being under load. Downsides: can't really be tied around a solid ring or similar; tying incorrectly can result in a similar looking, but highly inferior knot. I generally only use this when I need a loop that is not right on the end of the rope, since you don't need access to the ends to tie it. I should probably use it more, since it's one of the strongest non-slip loops around (second only to the eye splice, as far as I know) and it's easier to untie after being under load than a closed loop made by tying a figure 8 on a bight.

Timber hitch - used for tying a rope to a log. I don't have reliable information on strength, but indications are the strength is similar to a Bowline. Very easy to untie, regardless of how heavily it has been loaded. May slip a bit under load - more twists in the know help minimize this. If I didn't own a logging winch and choker cables, I suspect I would be tying this one often.
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Re: Rope
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 09:15:45 AM »
I love knots and regularly use knots such as the trucker's hitch, bowline, and clove hitch.  Strangely I was not familiar with the butterfly so off to Google I went.  This is one of the examples that I found:
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Offline John Mc

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Re: Rope
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 09:32:38 AM »
Nice video you found, Magicman.

I sometimes find the "two-twist method" tough to follow in a video. Here is a picture sequence that helped me when I was first trying to learn this knot:

   

It's important to get this one right, since mis-tying it can produce a similar looking, but inferior knot.
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Re: Rope
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 09:42:01 AM »
I will be practicing tying this knot today because occasionally I need a "mid span" loop.  :P
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Re: Rope
« Reply #23 on: May 16, 2018, 10:03:49 AM »
Knot Head... :D :D :D :D
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Re: Rope
« Reply #24 on: May 16, 2018, 10:58:27 AM »
Don't use the ropes that stretch.  I assume the arborist ropes are designed for pulling trees so definately stick to them.  Many years ago our power went out, and I walked outside to see that our neighbor had dropped a big oak tree right across the road, taking the power lines with it.  I asked him why he hadn't roped it off and he said he had, using his nylon boat rope, he hooked it to his truck winch got it banjo tight, but when the tree started falling the wrong way, the roped stretched like a rubber band and barely slowed the tree down.   :D :D

Personally, on risky drops, I use chains and a big 3 foot handled come along and get the trees tensioned or leaning my way before I ever put the saw to them.  We clear a lot of fenclines and all trees will have a heavier canopy and significant lean over the open sun space of the fence and want to fall on it.  Pretty much have to pull every one. Chains don't stretch and a heavy ratcheting hand winch will allow me to put heavy, constant, consistent stable pressure on the tree so I'm not in a rush to hurry up and cut it down. 

Cutting in the woods is a different matter. Saw them, wedge them, drop them, drag them.    
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Offline John Mc

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Re: Rope
« Reply #25 on: May 16, 2018, 11:21:45 AM »
I tend not to use ropes or chains at all for felling when I'm working in the woods. I can usually figure out how to wedge it over in the direction I want it to go (with two wedges and the occasional cookie as a spacer, you can counter a surprising amount of lean). If that's just not practical, I'll look for other directions to drop it. Admittedly, there are more options when cutting firewood, since if it doesn't land in a position that makes it easy to pull out, I can always cut it into smaller pieces and then drag it out.

When cutting sawlogs or when the tree is creating a hazard to a building or something, a rope or chain may be unavoidable. I generally don't do near power lines if it's going to take a rope or chain to protect them. I let the power company deal with that.
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Re: Rope
« Reply #26 on: May 16, 2018, 07:45:36 PM »
I was taught to tie the alpine butterfly with the hand wrap method. Once you get it down you can do it with your eyes closed.
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Offline 21incher

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Re: Rope
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2018, 07:30:05 AM »
Thanks John Mc & Magicman got that one down. It would be nice if there was a knot tying app that laid them out like you did John Mc.

I do use wedges but find there is a fine line on hinge size for leaners and wind direction doesn't help either.  The hand winch and Samson rigging rope look to be the perfect solution to provide some extra tension for me working alone on the smaller size trees that l am dealing with. plus there is no danger to anything if they go in the wrong direction, just alot of extra work.  It is just nice to now have a decent length of rope that is not notted together and has a real working load rating as a extra safety precaution when needed. :)
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Re: Rope
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2018, 07:41:38 AM »
I did some practicing yesterday.  Yup, dat's a good knot.  :P
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Re: Rope
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2018, 07:43:49 AM »
Not an app, but a good reference:

Arborist Knots | How to Tie Tree Climbing Knots | Animated Arborist Knots

And also:  https://www.netknots.com/rope_knots/arborist-knots

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Re: Rope
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2018, 09:06:59 AM »
rock climbers us. While it is incredibly strong, it's designed to be elastic - that elasticity cushions the jerk at the end of a long fall when climbing. However, the elasticity is also what makes the rope spring back with surprising force if it does break.

that"s not nice not all rock climbers are jerks ;D james

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Re: Rope
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2018, 09:14:47 AM »
animatedknots.com is also a good one.
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Re: Rope
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2018, 02:22:40 PM »
It would be nice if there was a knot tying app that laid them out like you did John Mc.
 

If you are talking about how to tie the knots, if you google just about any knot name, you'll find an abundance of picture sequences, animated tying examples, and YouTube videos. Quality varies greatly, and what makes perfect sense to one viewer may be completely confusing to another, so if one isn't clicking for you, try another.

I've also found that most of the Wikipedia entries for a specific knot have pretty good descriptions of that knot is good for.
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Re: Rope
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2018, 06:55:18 PM »
Google Apps 

They have an app for tying knots. 
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Re: Rope
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2018, 07:32:19 PM »
That Butterfly knot looks like what they use to tie top & bottom rigs for fishing.
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Re: Rope
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2018, 09:17:54 PM »
Do they have an app for skinning goats?
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline POSTON WIDEHEAD

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Re: Rope
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2018, 10:14:07 PM »
Do they have an app for skinning goats?
No but they show a knot for hanging one. 😂😂😂😂
Magic has a Brand New Sticker

Offline Brucer

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Re: Rope
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2018, 12:15:06 AM »
Stretchy ropes can get you in trouble with a leaner, even the very strong ones. Arborist's ropes were designed for the job. Personally, I have a pair of 50 foot 3/8" wire rope chokers that I can link together. A cable clamp plus an 8000 pound come-along and an anchor chain complete the package.
Bruce    LT40HDG28 bandsaw with two 6' extensions.
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Offline 21incher

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Re: Rope
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2018, 09:22:46 PM »
Tried out that winch today and it worked great. Made a video and at at about 13:30 it shows the type of damage that all my Ash trees have from the EAB.


Hudson HFE-21 on a custom trailer, Deere 4100, Kubota BX 2360, Echo CS590 & CS310, home built wood splitter, home built log arch, and a Logrite cant hook.


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