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Author Topic: Buying logs?  (Read 1858 times)

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Offline Brad_bb

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Buying logs?
« on: June 13, 2018, 09:22:01 PM »
I need to buy white oak (Quercus Alba) logs in Indiana.  How do I go about doing that?  Most logs I've procured to this point have not been from professional loggers.  Been milling for 4 years now. I'm assuming I'm going to have to find professional loggers and make a deal.  Will they be willing to do that?  
Is there a grade of log that I need to specify?
How do I make sure I'm getting true white oak?
Are there any other specs that I need to designate - how much taper is allowed?  anything else?

I've rarely had any white oak logs in what I have bought through my sources.  I have milled mostly Ash, Cherry, Walnut, honey locust, and some elm.  I have no problem dealing in BF as that is how I think, but help me know what I'm talking about to buy the logs I need please.

I need to make 12" wide paneling that is circle sawn.  So I'll make 12.5 wide cants and take them to a circle sawyer I know to cut double thick boards to dry(cause thicker will likely dry flatter), and after drying, resaw them on my band mill into two 3/4" thick boards each.  And no, my circle sawyer doesn't have a good source for wo logs.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2018, 06:50:25 AM »
What grade does the finished lumber need to achieve?
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Offline scsmith42

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2018, 07:45:28 AM »
Brad, to buy logs check to see if you can find local concentration yards, and also reach out to loggers and tree service companies.

To make your 12 paneling, keep in mind that there will be between 6% - 12% shrinkage in width on your white oak boards as they dry, and if you need to straight line rip them full length before installing you will lose another 1.5 or so overall.  So I would suggest milling a 14 wide green board in order to net 12 after drying and edge straightening.
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Offline teakwood

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2018, 08:07:03 AM »
Maybe a dumb question but can anyone explain me why he has to circle saw it and than resaw it with the bandmill at the end? Why circle saw? Thanks  
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Offline Southside logger

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2018, 08:51:25 AM »
I am assuming when done the circle marks will be left on the boards show face, that is "the thing" now around here.  I have a bunch of ash to work into flooring like that right now in the shed and finished up a whack of old pine earlier this week that was the same look.  
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Offline Matt601

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2018, 09:06:33 AM »
Maybe a dumb question but can anyone explain me why he has to circle saw it and than resaw it with the bandmill at the end? Why circle saw? Thanks  
Probably want the saw ring on one side that a Circle saw leaves.  
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2018, 09:20:23 AM »
Help educate me on grade please.  Does it have to be clear?  Not necessarily, but it will definitely help the drying.  If it has a small knot in a board, no big deal.  As far as boards I'm thinking SELECT or better, but how do you specify the quality of log/grade the log?  What can I expect for cost of wo logs in good grade?  Is veneer grades the same as what I'm looking for or am I looking for less than veneer grade?  As I said, I need education on grading the log.

Good tips Scott! If I get some that end up at 10" that's ok, but I do want at least half to be 12" so I'll keep that waste in mind.

Yes, I want the circle saw marks so the boards look older.  I'm also going to oxidize(ammonia fume) the boards so they look older.  Just discovered this technique recently and I like it.

Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline Southside logger

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2018, 09:48:58 AM »
It sounds like you are looking for three sides clear logs or just butt logs, four sides clear. In a forest grown oak that will give you the least amount and smallest  knots in the lumber.  As far as price, around here those would run $1 / board foot or more Doyle right now. White oak is being exported like walnut these days. 
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Offline Just Right

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2018, 09:54:15 AM »
Log Prices ? WNC Sawmill      I know this is from around Ashville NC but it will break down the prices and grading that they use.  I couldn' find anything else for IN.  I agree with the last reply.  3 or 4 clear sides should get you what you want.  
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2018, 09:56:31 AM »
Are you considering quartering them or some? Double your cost, but double your joy!  ;D
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2018, 10:45:39 AM »
The white oak barrel industry is in a bidding war with the white oak export industry.  There is no point in even looking for a veneer buyer when you can get better money at the stave buyer on every piece 3 side clear 11inch by 8'6" and bigger, and haul it in at your liesure mon-fri.  Plus, they can take quite a lot more crook than a lumber mill.  

Im not kidding when i say that i got a compliment on my logs at the stave buyer.. Who is buying 16" and up at $1800/mbf.. And scrutinized constantly on tie logs at $360/mbf.  


The further you can get from a stave mill the better off youll be.  Theyre mostly in middle kentucky and north east alabama.   At those prices there isnt much good WO left but yard trees.  2 sides clear you can probably get the price down to 800-1000/mbf.  Tie mill i sell to buys these logs for 35 to 40 cents then yards them off to someone else for more.


If you arent dead set on oak, wormy spalted red maple with a coarse circle tooth face would be gorgeous and nearly free.  A very bright white wood with lots of streaky character.  500/mbf or less would buy all you could handle.  Hillbilly panelling. 
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2018, 09:50:15 PM »
PA_Walnut, I may quarter saw some if big enough, maybe.  I'd do it a little differently though.  In that case I'd band mill 2" thick, dry it, and then have the circle sawyer split it. I'd mill it such that when he split it I'd get at least decent fleck.  He'll have 1/4" kerf so it won't be perfect on the rays necessarily,  but good.  I'd have to reverse roll and cut.  Actually I'm not sure I can do it and end up with wide enough pieces on my band mill.  And I'd end up with a lot of waste.  That's why I said maybe.  

I definitely want white oak.  I want to fume it to get the look I want.
Thanks for the prices.  At least that gives me a ballpark.  

I'm assuming those are prices delivered to the mill?  Any advice on what to expect for them to be delivered to me?  I'm assuming distance will change the scenario since I'm not a regular buyer/mill.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2018, 10:28:21 PM »
Im not sure what things are like in your area but big clean white oak just isnt easy to find here anymore without premium money to lure it in.  Shorter than 8'3 then yeah thats not an issue because its below minimum length for the mills to buy.  White oak is our walnut so over here its barking up a spendy tree.

I have no idea how youd go about getting less than a log truck worth delivered to you other than just doing a lot of asking around or putting up wanted ads.  I suppose you could bite the bullet, pay the mill a premium to sell logs they bought and have one of their customers backhaul it to you.. Obviously they leave the mill empty.  Can you unload a big truck?  Tree service is the only gang likely to have the wood and a deliver/unload method.   But iron strikes imminent. 
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Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2018, 11:42:39 PM »
   May be different in your location but around here I think I would just go to the big local circle mills and place an order for the rough lumber the sizes I wanted. Sounds to me like you are looking for 8/4 to 9/4 X 12"-14" wide X whatever length you need. That is still assuming you want to resaw on your band mill but I'd check to see what they can provide 4/4 or 5/4 if that is what you really want in the end.

   I would expect to pay a premium price for it because of the demand for it and sounds like a high demand for truck and trailer decking too. I know you mentioned the circle mill did say he did not have a source for the logs but was that just for selling the logs to you? How soon do you have to have it? Can he put you on a want list and maybe get it within the next 3-6 months or do you have to have it sooner than that? How much do you need and how far are you willing to travel to get it? Unless I were ordering a truckload I'd expect to have to pick the logs up at the source.

   Good luck.
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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2018, 01:00:59 AM »
I need to make 12" wide paneling that is circle sawn. So I'll make 12.5 wide cants and take them to a circle sawyer I know to cut double thick boards to dry(cause thicker will likely dry flatter), and after drying, resaw them on my band mill into two 3/4" thick boards each.
 
What about modifying a band mill to to saw at an angle?  That would somewhat replicate a circle saw pattern.
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Offline Southside logger

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2018, 04:39:45 AM »
Ironic just how much time and technology has gone into making the saw marks disappear, that now folks will go through hoops to have the saw marks visible on their lumber. 
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2018, 06:34:52 AM »
Ironic just how much time and technology has gone into making the saw marks disappear, that now folks will go through hoops to have the saw marks visible on their lumber. 


I have personally witnessed a company using an angle grinder on timbers to give it the circular sawn look. They were very practiced at it, but given the test, I don't think I could see the difference between it and real circular sawn one.:o
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2018, 09:14:03 AM »
Apparently theres also people who go gaga and pay ridiculous money for hand hewn beams.

 Get off the couch, go find a spindly little timber and get to wackin.  You can afford all you want. 
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2018, 09:22:01 AM »
...it depends how big the truck is.  WO is heavy, so I'm not sure how much they'd put on a truck.  You can load a regular semi with about 47K.  So if green White Oak is 5.3 lbs/BF, that's almost 9,000 BF in logs.  A percentage of that will be waste.  So assuming 35 percent is waste(just a guess), that's about 6,000BF of lumber.  I will probably use 2,000 BF for this paneling.  So could I do that, possibly.  A shorter truck would be better.

I've done the trick of putting stock at an angle and back dragging the band across the piece.  It works ok with material 8 inches wide and about 6 feet long. Any longer/wider and you can't get enough angle on the piece.  It kinda works on 8" wide and less, but the wider it is the more you can tell the marks are straight and not curved.

The sooner I get the logs, the sooner it starts air drying(which I need to do to reduce cupping), and the sooner it can be used.  I figure the cycle is going to take 2 years-2.5 years to get my paneling done.

I know there are flooring MFG's that put circle saw marks on flooring with some machine, but I don't know anyone that can do that otherwise I'd make 5/4 boards faster and have them marked.  People who have made machines/set ups to do that are very secretive and don't let anyone see or have pics of them.

This is the only vid I've found.


...and I only collapse on the couch at night after milling all day, pretty much full time lately, but mostly walnut, cherry and Ash.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Buying logs?
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2018, 09:48:56 AM »
I didnt mean that at your or any one here brad.. More the city folk with too much money.  Then again i guess if they stop buyin wed all be in trouble so i should hush.


Mount a push mower engine off your bandmill tower. Drill and tap for a triangular carbide insert from a lathe, to bolt to each end of the mower blade.  This is eaxactly how the rottler F80 cylinder head machine i ran decked heads and blocks.  The pattern is dictate by rpm and travel feedrate.  We used round CBN inserts but i think a flat edge would better mimic a saw insert.

build in a turn buckle to adjust angle.. You dont want the back blade to drag, only the leading blade. Its not gonna sit perpendicular ovet the log, more tilted like a helicopter travels forward.  Well, in iron that was the case.. Youll need to pioneer something rigid and work out the kinks.

No reason why a mower cant also be a planer for removing cup by bolting on a different blade with different style of knives. I think it could make some cool pattern.
Revelation 3:20


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