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Author Topic: Do PPB infest pine?  (Read 1463 times)

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Offline flatrock58

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Do PPB infest pine?
« on: June 17, 2018, 11:04:29 PM »
I was looking at some old rough cut pine boards that are standing in my old barn.  They have small holes in them with sawdust streaming down the board.  I know it is not from termites.  I assume maybe PPB, but I thought they did not mess with pine.


 



Another thing I see in the old barn are small flying bugs that go in some of these holes.  Not sure what they are, but I don't think they actually make the holes. Any ideas?



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Offline Southside logger

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2018, 11:14:38 PM »
Yes PPB will get into pine.  I ran some reclaimed old pine that was under a barn roof for many years the other day, it looked like little volcano eruptions from each hole each time I fed a board into the moulder.
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Offline Ianab

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2018, 11:26:04 PM »
Probably not PPB, but another species of borer.

These Anobium ones will get into pine for sure, and the end result is about the same.  >:(

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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2018, 05:11:44 AM »
Spray BoraCare or Timbor on it. When they eat wood treated with it, they are no longer able to extract nutrition and starve to death.
Because of this, they can not become immune to it.  8)
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2018, 06:56:22 AM »
There are many species or types of powderpost beetles.  The one we usually worry about is the lyctus PPB, which infests dry hardwoods only.  The ambrosia beetle does infest softwoods, prefers 15% MC and wetter, and is another PPB; both make very small holes around 1/16 diameter max.  There are some foreign PPB that also infest softwoods.

Control is difficult as you need to get the chemical deeply into the wood and not just in the surface fibers.  The insect is presently making tunnels in the wood and weakening the wood, so treating just the surface with one spray application is not good enough.  Both Boracare and Timbor require dilution with lots of water.  Both have the same active ingredient, but Boracare has glycol to help penetration.   To get deep into the wood oftentimes requires repeated applications.  (Commercial treatments use pressure to rapidly force the treating chemicals into the wood.)  Sometimes wrapping in plastic wrap after treating, so the water will not dry out but will go deep, is needed.  After treating, you need to dry the wood.  Again, the strength loss from the tunnels is significant, even if only a few holes.

The female has a long device that she sticks into a hole or crevass in the wood from which the eggs exit, so she can lay eggs below a thin surface treatment.

The holes you see are exit holes.  The insect is leaving the wood looking for a mate and the pregnant femail will lay eggs in small tiny crevasses or rough spots on the surface of this same piece or adjacent pieces.  For this reason, removal of the infected pieces away from uninflected wood is critical to prevent spread.  Newly infected pieces show no evidence of the infection (dust coming out of a hole) for some time, as the eggs have to hatch and then the larva crawl around making tunnels without coming to the surface.
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Offline Crusarius

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2018, 08:06:01 AM »
So I am guessing I am dealing with PPB. they are small black and like to drill holes in fresh cut maple.









Think seven would kill these things? I don't know whether I should mix it into a liquid and spray it or spread it around. Or if it will even do anything to them. All I know is everyone of my spalted maple slabs now has holes in it, along with my spalted maple cookies.

I have a customer wanting the cookies and I told him I will not let them leave my place till I get the bugs under control.

What about permathrin?
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Offline flatrock58

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2018, 08:11:20 AM »
Well I thought that I didn't have much to worry about anything but termites and carpenter bees with the pine.  I have a lot of old boards lying around that I just need to burn.  I guess I will need to sterilize all the wood I have stored in that barn before I move it to the other building. 
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Offline WDH

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2018, 08:16:59 AM »
So I am guessing I am dealing with PPB. they are small black and like to drill holes in fresh cut maple.
If the maple is fresh cut, then you likely have ambrosia beetles.  They will leave once the wood begins to dry.

Treat green wood with disodium octaborate tetrahydrate to prevent infestation of powderpost beetles.  It is safe for humans and animals and toxic to insects.
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Offline Southside logger

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2018, 08:20:52 AM »
Had a customer call me yesterday looking for higher end lumber, but he said it has to be kiln dried - not a problem for me - then he went onto explain that this winter he had purchased some non KD beams  from someone up the road about an hour, brought them back to his place, put them into his shop, and before long noticed the PPB showing it's ugly head.  Had to bring in a shipping container and fumigate all the stock in his shop, then treat the shop itself. Something along the lines of $2K in expenses and 30 days lost use of the shop.  You made the right call Crusarius.  
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Offline Southside logger

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2018, 08:22:37 AM »
WDH - is there a trade name for that methyl-ethyl-bad-butt-bug-killer stuff?  Preferably a short one?   :D
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Offline Crusarius

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2018, 08:30:14 AM »
So I am guessing I am dealing with PPB. they are small black and like to drill holes in fresh cut maple.
If the maple is fresh cut, then you likely have ambrosia beetles.  They will leave once the wood begins to dry.

Treat green wood with disodium octaborate tetrahydrate to prevent infestation of powderpost beetles.  It is safe for humans and animals and toxic to insects.
Guess I should check the pine that was stacked right under the maple and see whether they have gotten into that yet. that should tell me if it is ambrosia or powder post right?
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2018, 12:39:30 PM »
There are two products that have disodium octaborate tetrahydrate etc.   The two are Timbor and Boracare.  Boracare is better for very dry wood.  As mentioned in my earlier posting, they are diluted with lots of water, so require a long time to soak all the way into wood and then the wood must be dried again.  Keep in mind that these two products are insecticides and DO HAVE A FEW HUMAN HEALTH CONCERNS which are covered in the MSDS, which can be found on-line or on the label.  For example, see
https://www.biconet.com/crawlers/infosheets/boraMSDS.pdf

Normally we would not treat green lumber with a spray treatment of borates as all the water in the wood when dead-green prevents the absorption of the chemical and the water that carries it.  After a few days of drying, you can get a dry outer layer of wood that can absorb and form a barrier to new insects coming into the wood; use submersion or repeated spraying to get enough chemical into the interior.  However, the two chemicals mentioned above are water soluble, so exposure to rain during air drying will leach most of a one-time spray treatment out.  So, a quick spray treatment is not very useful for open air drying.  Other chemicals (insecticides and fungicide combinations) exist for green lumber use.  These chemicals lose half their strength in a few weeks, so do not normally put dry lumber at risk of a health hazard.

The lyctus PPB has little club like ends to the antenna, so this picture above does not appear to be lyctus PPB.  

Also, the holes are exit holes and seldom would an adult go back into them and eat any poison in them.  The PPBadults you see are looking to breed and will die soon afterward...after laying eggs for the female.  You could spray the holes or even the wood with sevin but it would not do any good and might create some issues when sanding or planing the wood.  If you spray the insects you see now, more new ones can emerge tomorrow.

I do not know of any PPB that likes freshly sawn lumber from living trees. They need oxygen, so some drying must occur.  Also, the eggs take time for a pregnant insect to find the lumber, to lay eggs, to have the eggs hatch, and then for the larva to eat and grow and finally for the insect to emerge from the wood with the tiny 1/16 diameter holes, never to return to inside the wood.  It is the larva (worm) stage that does all the damage inside the wood.  To kill the eggs and larva, we need an insecticide that goes deeply into the wood and not just on the surface.  

The beetle in the picture is not drilling new holes in the maple wood.  New holes are coming because new insects are emerging.

South side Logger:  Here is the problem.  You cannot tell just by looking  if the lumber has viable eggs on or near the surface, or if there are active larva inside the wood.  The only way to be certain is to handle the lumber quickly, and maybe plane it, between the kiln and shipping...no chance of fresh eggs, as the PPB takes time to find the wood and does not fly far from its previous home.  Therefore all such dry lumber storage facilities, with recently KD lumber (150 F or hotter) only in them are free of such insects.  Plus, even if eggs were laid, it takes time to have them hatch, so a planer removes any eggs.

Ambrosia beetles like wood that is above around 20% MC.  The insects can infest the wood at any time when it is this wet.  In air drying, they can go through one life cycle in warm weather in 4-6 weeks.  So, one stack of lumber can be attacked perhaps three times.  Ambrosia beetles often have a dark ring around the exit hole.  These insects are easily controlled by eliminating wood debris (their breeding ground), by using sterilized 4x4 and stickers, and by spraying the ground with a short-life insecticide.
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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2018, 03:13:22 PM »
I feel I have hijacked this thread but hopefully the OP will appreciate any insite into all these bugs.

The maple that the bugs are in has been sitting for a few years in a nice moist area. It is very nicely spalted. Unfortunately the bugs appear to be hatching after I sawed it. So that wood is probably all junk?

Do I understand this correctly that the bugs are hatching and emerging and will not go back into the wood? So the wood may still be usable and "Rustic" 
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2018, 03:54:51 PM »
The insect that leaves or exits through the hole does not go back, but the females can lay eggs and start a new family.  There may also be some existing larva in the wood. She is not required to nurse her young; they grow up without her.  So, killing the visible beetles is likely not effective. 

As stated, you cannot see the eggs or larva activity, so you do not know if they are present.  However, you do need a source for the insect, and it does not fly around over a large area like mosquitos.  One possible source is infected foreign wood or bamboo.  Another is a forest with decaying trees, so do not air dry in or real close to the woods.  Without a source, infestation risks are as close to zero as you can get.
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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2018, 04:42:57 PM »
WDH - is there a trade name for that methyl-ethyl-bad-butt-bug-killer stuff?  Preferably a short one?   :D
DOT is the chemical in Timbor and BoraCare. Timbor is straight DOT and should be applied to green wood fresh from the saw, no drying time. Borates travel by diffusion on the wet from a liquid at high concentration into the saturated fibers of the wood at low concentration. In order to get the deepest penetration the wood needs to be above fiber saturation point. It isn't perfume, soak it on multiple coats wet on wet if at all possible. Once borate dries in the wood you aren't getting any more in.

If the wood has dried then a DOT/glycol product such as BoraCare is the way to go. Glycol is simply a very slow drying carrier that mixes well with water, raising the wood moisture content and allowing penetration. You won't get the same depth of penetration with BoraCare or any other borate and dry wood that you will get with straight DOT and wood green from the saw.

Rainwater wetting does not wash borate off. Again, borate moves when the wood is at or above fiber saturation. Until then water can rinse the borate from the surface but it has little to no effect on the borate within the wood. There was a construction project using borate treated wood that went belly up. The framing sat exposed for 4 years. Tested, good to go.

DOT is also an ag chemical used to remedy boron deficiency in crops. Solubor and Beau-Ron are two trade names I buy it under here. Chemically identical to Timbor right down to the CAS, chemical abstract services number, concentration and purity... same product different bag. It is cheaper than Timbor but is not listed as an insecticide/fungicide by the EPA, your call on that paperwork. The glycol in BoraCare is ethylene glycol, antifreeze. There is another less toxic brand that uses polyethylene glycol, RV antifreeze. The farmer we've been working for has applied a couple of hundred pounds of DOT to the log barn project we've been working on.

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2018, 11:34:12 PM »
I have and use Sol-u-Bor, really helps sunflowers set oil in the seed - 40 mule team, the stuff is actually OMRI listed - go figure.  So what would be the dilution mixture to use with either water or glycol?  
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Offline GeneWengert-WoodDoc

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2018, 07:07:52 AM »
Don P makes a really good point about getting the borate products into the wood: "soak it on in multiple coats."  He continues that once the wood with borate treatment begins to dry, additional coats do not penetrate well.

Timbor is sold as a powder that is diluted in water...1.5 pounds per gallon and this treats 200 square feet of wood according to instructions.  I am not sure if this 200 square feet is a single application on drier wood or repeated treatments.  See the label, for example:
http://www.pestproducts.com/products/timbor-label.pdf

Now, if you treat wood with borates deeply, it is my understanding that such wood is considered "treated wood" which requires the seller to supply the purchaser an MSDS sheet, as the seller is selling both the wood and the borate chemical.  Is the seller exempt from the other regulations regarding handling and selling treated wood?  Check the label on the link above.  

If the borate is applied by spraying at one location, will the over-spray and dripping that accumulates to high levels in the soil and leaches into ground water eventually over time be considered a source-point pollutant?  Must the treater have a drip pad?  Like many chemicals that are acceptable when spread over a large area, it is an issue when they are concentrated at one point.  Must the treater be licensed by the state, which includes attending some educational classes?

In my earlier post, I was thinking about a single spray coating at the sawmill, and not repeated spray coatings or even submersion over a period of time before stacking for drying.  I have never seen a sawmill spray or soak green lumber for a week or more after sawing but before drying...not practical for most or all.  So, a single spray coating on fresh green lumber at the sawmill, both sides of the board, will not provide a deep concentration and will be subject to leaching in air drying.  We actually did a test of this when I was at VA Tech (single spray coat and did not apply so much that the excess ran off) and showed considerable loss of borate from the lumber in air drying.  At the time, we were concerned about the concentration of borates in the soil in the air drying yard, but were unable to find funding to study this in detail.  We did indeed find some in the soil after one air drying cycle.

Note that Timbor does not prevent mold.  
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Offline Don P

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #17 on: June 19, 2018, 07:29:46 AM »
I have and use Sol-u-Bor, really helps sunflowers set oil in the seed - 40 mule team, the stuff is actually OMRI listed - go figure.  So what would be the dilution mixture to use with either water or glycol?  

1 lb/gal is a common mix ratio and is pretty stable, you can run up to 1-1/2 lbs/gal for a 15% saturated solution which will want to crystallize and make rock candy inside any spray equipment. With either flush it out well when you're done, it isn't good to leave it in there. A few drops of dish soap help break the surface tension, you farm you know the drill there. Glycol is a wetting agent so I gauge quantity on drying conditions. I think BoraCare runs around 50/50, I'm usually down around 10% and try to play in the shade and pick my days more.

The OMRI (organic) listing is limited to soils that show a boron deficiency, you and I both qualify there. It is a micronutrient, a little goes a long way. Move that operation around. I did have a small spill one time, killed the grass, less than a pail but it bothered me, I debated digging it up and dispersing the soil... it is a micronutrient folks, the solution is dilution. I went down a few days later and the deer had done the job for me, it was a salt lick to them. Checking the MSDS it can cause infertility in male mammals at high dosage, I was tempted to put a deer lick out by the garden :D.

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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2018, 03:00:34 PM »
Fig trees will work better than a deer lick!  My figs seem like a magnet indeed.  I can leave a map out there on how they (the deer) can get from GA to SW VA, if you need some more deer.

Incidentally, I would estimate that well over 3/4 of the medium and large sawmills use no insecticide or fungicide chemical treatment at all on freshly sawn lumber.
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Re: Do PPB infest pine?
« Reply #19 on: June 19, 2018, 08:17:27 PM »
I mix it 6 pounds of powder to 5 gallons of water. 
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