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Author Topic: How to tell whats inside  (Read 2330 times)

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Offline rjwoelk

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How to tell whats inside
« on: July 06, 2018, 10:58:36 AM »
I got a load of logs from my supplier and in the process of cutting them for projects.
The problem is i have a good looking log nice and clean,ends are good no indication of problems till i get into it a couple of slabs. Then the rot shows up from lightning strike or something. Out of 18 48 ft logs i have had 3 that had bad areas in them . Hope i just got the garbage done. 
I am cutting western hemlock. When we did the cabin, out of the 2 loads only lost maybe 6 ft. 
Had one made into a 8x12 and just needed to make it a 8x10. Next cut and out of 24 ft log salvaged  10 ft the rest rot. Yesterday should have got 4  2x10. Got nothing. All trash except for the outside 1x and the slabs. :(
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Offline Jim_Rogers

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2018, 01:02:31 PM »
I keep track of the lumber yield from a log and only pay the logger on what I get that's good. If a log is junk you shouldn't be paying full price.
I don't know if your guy will do that or not but you should at least take pictures of the rot and show him next time and ask for credit.

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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2018, 01:06:37 PM »
If these defects cannot be detected from the outside then some deduction must be estimated from experience. Often the location where the logs [trees] grew tells the mill what to expect. If you don't buy often it will be hard to learn this.

Offline Southside logger

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2018, 03:19:10 PM »
It is common to deduct either grade or footage from logs when scaling them, but you need to know what to look for. I personally have not heard of a mill that does it the way Jim described above, but if both parties agree, then it works.
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Offline CX3

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2018, 03:21:13 PM »
Jim I don't think many logs are bought and sold the way you have described. Any sawmill I have ever known buys the good with the bad. Especially if no defects are present. Logs like that are far and few between or we'd all be out of business.   

 
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Offline JB Griffin

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2018, 08:27:46 PM »
I keep track of the lumber yield from a log and only pay the logger on what I get that's good. If a log is junk you shouldn't be paying full price.
I don't know if your guy will do that or not but you should at least take pictures of the rot and show him next time and ask for credit.

Jim Rogers


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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2018, 06:54:55 AM »
You get to tell good from bad by doing it. The rot spot came in on a branch. 
I got a load in yesterday, [Easter Hemlock] I bet there's some rot in there too
I do have to pay for all of it, less the defects. But if I miss something It's mine.


 

 


 
Then the rain came, wet trucker.  Just when he was done, the sun came out.  :D :D :D :D :D


 


 
24 footers too.
Had a customer buy 24'-22' and some 20' 6x8


 
After a while, you will have exray eyes.  ;D
Then just when you think your good at it you will miss some junk on one. :D :D
Good luck.

Offline rjwoelk

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2018, 09:52:41 AM »
Thanks Peter
 The one had a small scare on it maybe a ft long. That was the one on a 24 ft and it was gone inside except for 10 ft.
The others were close to were there was damage to the outside.  Some heavy checking was another. Like you say it will come with experience. Its just that its expensive.  My logs are coming 750 miles one way. But the price is right. Around 350 mbf. Logs and trucking. I hire the compny I drive for and I drive the truck and get payed to do it. 
 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2018, 11:52:56 AM »
Dang yer kinda far from the woods buddy
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Offline rjwoelk

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2018, 02:34:30 AM »
Yup if you google map countrysidefirewood, thats were I am. Out in the bald prairie. ;D
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2018, 07:12:09 AM »
It's painful. Most of the loggers I get material from will make it right. Some, it's on you.

This big walnut yielded some nice slabs...until it didn't. Noted a dark section on one, then the next was bzzzzt....bzzzt...bzzzt. That infamous sound.  :-[

I've sawed walnut that huge holes in the middle too, with piles of ants dropping out.   >:( :o

Let the buyer beware.






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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2018, 07:25:14 AM »
That stuff is easy to find. Why stick the rotting stuff?

Offline petefrom bearswamp

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2018, 08:46:11 AM »
Any shake in Western hemlock?
I deduct for obvious shake when I buy but it sometimes doesnt show up for a week or so.
Sawed only 7 8' logs last week in the oppressive heat and all had some shake but still managed-to salvage scale.
750 mile haul seems excessive to us easterners.
I scale and pay as Peter does, if defect doesnt show, I have to eat it.
Peter my trucker would be sweating bullets here with a heavy load  of Hemlock like that.
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Offline CX3

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2018, 09:57:21 AM »
You guys are putting blame on the wrong person. It is not the loggers fault that you bought and milled a rotten log. It's yours 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2018, 01:01:17 PM »
I think its just part of the game and no one needs to point fingers.  

how many rotten trees does a logger buy on the stump and cant do much with?  Probably more than the sawyers.  I know theyve ruined my day plenty of times. 
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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2018, 01:33:20 PM »
Trees are like a box of chocolates....you neva know what you're gonna get.  I think you just have to factor in a certain percentage of loss due to rot/defects to what you pay or sell for.  If both parties have been doing it for awhile they understand this.  With that in mind you either buy at an acceptable price or you don't.  If you have such long trucking distance as Bob has and that cost involved, having more loss  than normal really hurts I'm sure.  It's a lot easier dealing with without that cost.  I offered him clear walnut, but he didn't want that cheap inferior US wood. ;D
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Offline rjwoelk

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2018, 07:01:16 PM »
Not blamin anyone just need to look at my logs with a better eye.

Not much for shake in our hemlock.

Brad i am going to surprise you one day.  :D
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2018, 06:29:24 AM »
That stuff is easy to find. Why stick the rotting stuff?


On a 10' flitch with a 2-3' rotten spot, there's still plenty of usable material. I disagree that rot and metal is easy to find. Both logs pictured, exhibited little/no sign of it. Scanned the log, but metal was too deep to pick it up. Rot was under a knot and couldn't be seen until 2 or 3 slabs came off.

I neither blame nor expect loggers to take responsibility, but the major ones I deal with do, and try to make it right. Just as I would if someone purchased lumber from me that exhibited a defect after it left my possession. I view the risk as mine, yet appreciate a concession when appropriate. If I wanted lesser risk, I'd purchase sawn material instead.
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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2018, 06:40:45 AM »
That stuff is easy to find. Why stick the rotting stuff?


On a 10' flitch with a 2-3' rotten spot, there's still plenty of usable material. I disagree that rot and metal is easy to find. Both logs pictured, exhibited little/no sign of it. Scanned the log, but metal was too deep to pick it up. Rot was under a knot and couldn't be seen until 2 or 3 slabs came off.

I neither blame nor expect loggers to take responsibility, but the major ones I deal with do, and try to make it right. Just as I would if someone purchased lumber from me that exhibited a defect after it left my possession. I view the risk as mine, yet appreciate a concession when appropriate. If I wanted lesser risk, I'd purchase sawn material instead.


 ... Good luck.

Offline Just Right

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2018, 06:58:12 AM »
PA. . . with that rotted slab . . . and all the current resins and epoxies that people are using. . . . That one should make a fine piece of work.  But where do you get those stickers?  Make them?  Thanks.  JR
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2018, 07:16:10 AM »
PA. . . with that rotted slab . . . and all the current resins and epoxies that people are using. . . . That one should make a fine piece of work.  But where do you get those stickers?  Make them?  Thanks.  JR


I agree...that is why I keep them. I have actually made some table tops, filling large voids with epoxy. I have recently begun using metallic powders in them for a cool add. One of those slabs have a really cool pattern of ant trails/holes in them. I plan to fill it with epoxy and set some ants into the epoxy for added interest. :D

I use stickers from air-o-flow sticks and blocks from DHM. I think I've finally reached enough of them to keep in rotation, as they are not cheap, but really do a great job of preventing stain/shadowing.

Peter, I also keep walnut slabs that have defects as I build Maloof rockers and can use smaller pieces for all sorts of parts. Slab shorts are ideal as I am able to make single-board seat blanks from them. 
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2018, 07:33:21 AM »
The reality is that you're always going to have to take some bad with the good, thats just the luck of the draw. I've paid a lot of money for some real "good" logs that didnt pay their way, paid not much for "trash" that was quite profitable, and I run a mill on stuff that would scare most y'all away and manage to make a living doing it. It's all about the average, and being able to turn a log into the best he can be, and to some degree its about being able to pump volume...if you can punch enough logs through at a low enough unit cost you can be profitable cutting anything. 

One thing i do know is that you wont really learn to drive a saw cutting big fat straight clean logs.... like a lot of things its not until you start having to make silk purses from sows ears that you really learn how to maximise grade and recovery.



 

Every log in that pile is compulsory under the state rules. And If you know what you're doing they can be profitable too. A I said - silk purses from sows ears, and they'll throw the antbed inside them in for free.

OP's real issue isnt the logs IMHO, its the freight bill attached to them. And all I can suggest is to talk to the supplier and pay a bit more for a promise of a bit more care and attention in what goes on a truck. And if they wont load, or cant get the average up a bit... find a new supplier. Most people are reasonable, and they'll get the why of you not wanting to freight suspect logs a long way.

Just remember they dont have x-ray vision any more then you do.
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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2018, 07:50:41 AM »
Thanks for the info PA.  I will check them out.  I happen to be going to TN this weekend and might see if I can do a drive by in Troy. 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2018, 07:52:42 AM »
Compulsory meaning you must buy certain logs?

(Id love to have logs that straight and long for roundwood framing actually)
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Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2018, 07:58:52 AM »
Thanks for the info PA.  I will check them out.  I happen to be going to TN this weekend and might see if I can do a drive by in Troy. 


Cool...never seen his ops, but I'm guessing he has some kinda table/jig that cuts the sticks, then rips them to size. I've considered doing it with my CNC, but just not worth the agony. Kelvin is great to work with too...and actually delivers! (unlike some of the other speciality sticks companies that've been discussed here). ::)
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2018, 08:13:03 AM »
Compulsory meaning you must buy certain logs?

(Id love to have logs that straight and long for roundwood framing actually)
Compulsory meaning that they meet the minimum grade requirement set by the state for a sawlog off state land, so you have to pay for them whether you take them home or not. (sometimes I'll pay the stumpage and leave them there because i dont think they'll pay their freight and its better a small hiding in the bush then a big one in the mill yard)
Yeah, theres some nice sticks in them...  touch short to make (utility) poles for the most part but nice and straight and the only real defect is the pipe and... you just learn to saw around it, or box it out. Better the they look in the first pic too - lack of scale makes it hard to evaluate the amount of meat around some of those pipes because of the length.


 
NMP that one, but from the same place. I'm off to play loggers up there tomorrow.
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Offline Peter Drouin

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2018, 12:30:44 PM »
Got trees,  longtime lurker. nice. smiley_thumbsup smiley_thumbsup

Offline YellowHammer

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2018, 12:54:10 PM »
Serious logs, indeed.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: How to tell whats inside
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2018, 12:38:16 PM »
Got tires and brake chambers?  God id hate to maintain that rig.  Thankfully the states does not allow turnpike doubles to haul logs.  The roads have been treacherous enough already since the nokia 5190 came out. 
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