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Author Topic: Vacutherm iDry input  (Read 23041 times)

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Offline ronwood

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #160 on: November 26, 2018, 11:50:32 PM »
Sawing part time mostly urban logs -St. Louis/Warrenton, Mo.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #161 on: November 27, 2018, 08:50:52 AM »
Busysawyer, yeah that would be great.  I'm really intrigued by these small vacuum kilns.  We'd built a demo and were putting together some larger build plans but now forget about it.  This would be so so much easier.  I think the economic impact of these kilns is actually an important game changer.  Assuming we can get certifications re to sterilization these could completely change marketing for us.  So yes, any and all info and send me a PM if you ever want to arrange time to chat.  
Liking Walnut

Offline Busysawyer

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #162 on: November 27, 2018, 09:04:47 AM »
Ron, thank you for the link. I dont have a saw that I am comfortable with trying to RIP 1 in material with so I cant really do those tests properly. 
Nativewolf, here are some pics. I made a few cuts but not a proper test.

 

 

 

 

 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #163 on: November 27, 2018, 04:16:45 PM »
Ron, thank you for the link. I dont have a saw that I am comfortable with trying to RIP 1 in material with so I cant really do those tests properly.
Nativewolf, here are some pics. I made a few cuts but not a proper test.
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

paging yellowhammer or gene
Liking Walnut

Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #164 on: November 28, 2018, 05:42:46 AM »
I don't believe its possible to case-harden 8-10% material. It needs to be above EMC.

Put some green in there and put the screws to it and see what you get.I am going to assume that since oak is ring-porous, the vac will suck the water right out of the ends it and it will be fine....just a logical assumption.

I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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Offline Glenn1

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #165 on: November 29, 2018, 06:54:47 PM »
Good News! Today we took out the 4/4 walnut and the 4/4 cedar.  There was no checking nor cupping.  The Mc was between 6.4 and 7.3.  They have been planed and are now on the shelf.  
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Offline WDH

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #166 on: November 29, 2018, 08:24:07 PM »
Good news indeed!
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com

Offline Busysawyer

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #167 on: November 29, 2018, 08:57:30 PM »
Glad to hear its working well for you as well Glenn.  I found something that was a little bit strange.  I'm sure there is a scientific explanation for this but it is probably beyond my comprehension.  I ran that little load of air dried red oak and in 18 hours temps were near 160f and the wood was dried down to 6-7%. After that I immediately put in a small load of 4/4 walnut that I had previously had in my solar kiln for two months or so and had it down to 7-8%. Then it sat outside under cover for a few months. I tested it at 10% or so when I put it in the vac kiln. I thought it would be another overnight dry-sterilize. Checked about 18 hours later , temps in the high 140s mc 8-9%. It took about 40 hours to get that load up to 160f and down to 6-7%. Kind of surprised the solar kiln dried walnut took twice as long to dry as the air dried red oak.  Sure did come out nice though. Loaded another oversize load of hard maple today. 16/4, 12/4, 8/4,6/4 and a little 4/4 as well. 

 

 
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Offline PA_Walnut

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #168 on: November 30, 2018, 06:34:28 AM »
I need one of those things to catch-up on the drying! Are your sales able to keep up on the output end? If so, should pay for that thing in NO TIME!  :o
I own my own small piece of the world on an 8 acre plot on the side of a mountain with walnut, hickory, ash and spruce.
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Offline YellowHammer

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #169 on: November 30, 2018, 10:24:51 AM »
Re Prong Test:
As noted the prong test specimens need to be cut down the end of the boards several inches, I like 6 inches, parrallel to the face.  Think of an Oreo cookie, cutting out the white center layer between the outer black layers.  

Iíve done it with a portable band saw or a sawzall.  Chuck the board, I like 4 to 6 inches wide, into a vice, end facing up and make a couple cuts as long as possible from the end, parrallel to the faces, trying to keep the same distance from each face, and say remove the inner 2/3rds of the board.   Basically cut out the white center of the board, leaving the faces intact. Remove the white creamy filling.  :D
Then sit back and watch the prongs and see what happens.  Sometimes they bend instantly, sometimes its take awhile.  Itís a very useful test.

Or do a planer test, run an 8 foot or longer straight board, and I mean dead straight, sighted along its edge on its side so gravity doesnít play a factor, through the planer and take successive cuts 1/8Ē all from the same side.  Unbalance the fibers in the board.  If there is residual stress in the board, then as the one face gets shaved and unbalanced, the board will begin to bow.  It will keep bowing and then maybe even straighten as the face gets removed.

Then repeat the test with a bowed board, and take the all the meat from the high side.  If the board start to change shape, bow more, or reverse bow, then itís stressed.  

Stress can be caused by several things.  

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Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #170 on: November 30, 2018, 10:35:46 AM »
A few things:

Busysawyer, did you need to insulate and seal the barn, or was that just a preference for you, nicer to work in etc?

I see the material loads on a car and rolls on rails into the kiln, but do you then have to move the rails in order to close the door?  How does that process work of moving the rails if that's what you do?

One issue is that when you dry wood down to 6-7%, You need to have a place to keep it at 6-7%.  If you just put it in a shed/pole barn, it's going to reabsorb moisture isn't it?  So that tells me that anything you dry needs to be sold right away so you don't have to store it in conditioned space.  The customer should also know that part of what they paid for is drying it down to that level and that they need to store it in conditioned space if they want to maintain that.  Otherwise, buy air dried wood at 10-15% MC.

So what if you have wood that you want to take from green down to only say 12%, because it's going to be used for T&G in a horse barn.  Can the idry do that?  I did that this year, had my wood Nyle kiln dried to 12 and then machined it.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline Busysawyer

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #171 on: November 30, 2018, 12:10:21 PM »
Thank you for the explanation yh.
Brad, I will be using the barn as a showroom. It is heated and will be ac when warm weather hits so I wanted it sealed and efficient.  The kiln needs a dry space that is kept above freezing. All kiln dried wood will be stored in climate controlled space. One of the selling points of the idry for me was the ability to quickly dry material thus eliminating the need for stockpiling large inventory.  If I start running low on something it can quickly and efficiently be restocked. As far as drying to specific mc , say 12%. I would just check daily.  Already I've got a pretty good idea what's going on in there by just watching the temperature graph. If you think you are getting near your target mc push the stop button then push vaccum releases button. Wait a few minutes, open the door and test. The kiln does not lose much temp and climbs back up rapidly. The kiln releases pressure once every 24 hours to drain the accumulated water that is on the floor. If you wanted to you could time your testing when the kiln dumps the pressure instead of checking when it is convenient by forcing a release.
Pa, at this point just using the kiln to finish air dried and partially air dried material it is turning over way faster than what im selling. We are new to retail and still working on setting up a store front.  I sold quite a few walnut slabs from that first load already though.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Offline jfric

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #172 on: November 30, 2018, 06:38:23 PM »
A few things:

Busysawyer, did you need to insulate and seal the barn, or was that just a preference for you, nicer to work in etc?

I see the material loads on a car and rolls on rails into the kiln, but do you then have to move the rails in order to close the door?  How does that process work of moving the rails if that's what you do?

One issue is that when you dry wood down to 6-7%, You need to have a place to keep it at 6-7%.  If you just put it in a shed/pole barn, it's going to reabsorb moisture isn't it?  So that tells me that anything you dry needs to be sold right away so you don't have to store it in conditioned space.  The customer should also know that part of what they paid for is drying it down to that level and that they need to store it in conditioned space if they want to maintain that.  Otherwise, buy air dried wood at 10-15% MC.

So what if you have wood that you want to take from green down to only say 12%, because it's going to be used for T&G in a horse barn.  Can the idry do that?  I did that this year, had my wood Nyle kiln dried to 12 and then machined it.
I have a feeling this is going to start a debate. Iím not trying to start something, and Iím very willing to be proven wrong, Iím just speaking from my own limited experience. Here we go...
I think the concern about keeping kiln dried lumber in a climate controlled space gets a little too much sometimes. I live in Houston. We donít have walnut trees (or maple or cherry for that matter) so almost all of the walnut I buy comes from Missouri. It travels here on trucks that arenít climate controlled. It is delivered to hardwood lumber dealers that keep it in buildings that arenít climate controlled. Then I buy it and put it in my shop that isnít climate controlled. I tested a bunch of walnut this week that has been in my shop for well over a year and the highest reading I got on my Wagner and delmhorst meters was just over 8% (lowest readings were in the 6% range). Our average outdoor emc here is suppose to be somewhere around 13.5% I believe. 
Again, Iím happy to be proven wrong by someone who knows otherwise... but my understanding is that the bound moisture in green lumber is what is really hard to remove, but kiln dried lumber will not regain bound moisture. Any regained moisture is free moisture which the wood will release fairly quickly if it is taken into a climate controlled area to acclimate.
Iím not a moisture denier, I wouldnít store kiln dried lumber outside. Iím just saying sometime we as woodworkers can get a little overly hung up on this subject. I really do mean ďweĒ, as Iíve spent a ton of time fretting about the same thing myself. 
Iím happy to hear from anyone who can add more on this topic. If Iím misenturpreting my experience and Iím wrong Iíd like to know. If Iím right... thereís a first time for everything. I hope we are still all friends. Iíve learned an unbelievable amount from this site. Or, have I?  :)
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Offline Busysawyer

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #173 on: November 30, 2018, 07:06:21 PM »
Jfric, the professional full time woodworkers I have asked about this tell me that once it has been dried down to that 6-7 percent range it doesn't matter if it creeps up . I was told that it just needs to be dried to the lowest point it will ever see once and then its good.  They also said they generally will put the wood in their shop for a couple weeks to acclimate before working with it. 
Brad, regarding the track and cart system. There is a removable bridge that needs to be pulled out of the way in order to open and close the door.
Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in awhile

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #174 on: November 30, 2018, 08:04:47 PM »
Kinda makes sense. I'm thinking you can get that "bound" moisture out by keeping it in conditioned space, but it's going to take a lot longer.  One of my first project a few years ago was very illustrative of this.  I built a small walnut table in the spring or summer with air dried wood in my shed.  The first winter it shrank 3/16".  In summer it grew again by about 1/8".  The next winter It shrunk 1/16".  Now seasonally it will grow and shrink about 1/32-1/16"
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline WDH

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #175 on: November 30, 2018, 08:23:57 PM »
If there is more water in the wood than in the air, the water moves from the wood to the air.  If there is more water in the air than in the wood, the water moves into the wood.  If wood kiln dried to 8% is placed in a humid environment, say 80% humidity and held there constantly, the wood will gain mositure until it is in equilibrium with the humidity in the air.  This may take a while.  What complicates things is that the humidity in the air changes frequently, even daily from day to night. 
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Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #176 on: December 02, 2018, 07:49:45 AM »
My question is.
How did the old timers make and build so many beautiful pieces back in the day. 
They had no kilns.
I have worked on many old homes with some beautiful wood and woodworking .
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Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #177 on: December 02, 2018, 07:52:17 AM »
Don't get me wrong. 
If I can hobble around with my walker this summer I will be building a kiln.
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Offline Bruno of NH

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #178 on: December 02, 2018, 07:54:59 AM »
I live near two of the Shaker villages and they made some stunning stuff
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Offline WDH

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Re: Vacutherm iDry input
« Reply #179 on: December 02, 2018, 08:03:11 AM »
The old timers did not have climate controlled homes. They constructed their pieces to allow for seasonal movement.
Woodmizer LT40HDD35, John Deere 2155, Kubota M5640SU, Nyle L53 Dehumidification Kiln, and a passion for all things with leafs, twigs, and bark.  hamsleyhardwood.com


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