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Author Topic: New to the board and the Sawing world  (Read 1801 times)

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Offline No_Dude

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New to the board and the Sawing world
« on: August 04, 2018, 08:08:06 PM »
Howdy all, I'm from Arkansas and have started reading in pretty heavy in sawing for the last week or so. I'm dreaming about building a portable Mill, but that's a little way out. Just wanted to say hello, ask if y'all have any good places to read on running Mills, and to see if anyone e else is in the NW AR area, or maybe the NE OK. Thanks for having me yall

Offline never finished

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2018, 08:56:29 PM »
 Welcome No_Dude. Your in the right place. Just keep reading. There are a few on the FF from up in your area. Give me a shout if your ever in the central part of the state. I can teach you all I know in a real short visit. But stay as long as you wish. I didn't build my mill, but made a lot of mods. Dennis         

Offline CX3

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2018, 09:00:28 PM »
Springfield mo area here    

Welcome
John 3:16
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Offline samandothers

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2018, 09:16:10 PM »
Welcome!
  Several threads recently about mills people are building. As never finished stated just keep reading and youll absorb a good bit.

Offline SawyerTed

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2018, 09:41:06 PM »
Welcome!  
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Offline No_Dude

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2018, 10:11:32 PM »
Welcome No_Dude. Your in the right place. Just keep reading. There are a few on the FF from up in your area. Give me a shout if your ever in the central part of the state. I can teach you all I know in a real short visit. But stay as long as you wish. I didn't build my mill, but made a lot of mods. Dennis        
If I get to the point I'm convinced I want to throw down cash I may take you up on that offer. I may have to hit you up on spring break or sometime like that, finding the time to scoot down there while in school and being an intern makes it hard to find time for much of anything anymore haha. Hope y'all dont mind, but I'll probably just make this a dumping ground for a slew of questions so I don't flood the place with new threads.

Offline No_Dude

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2018, 11:36:50 PM »
What's a size reference to compare 1 MBF to, because I can read all these numbers on how many board feet something is, and without having a mental image to compare to, it doesnt mean much.

Offline No_Dude

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2018, 12:46:34 AM »
Also on your porta-mills what are the outside rails and the supports that span the inside made of size wise? Any good place to read on the relations of band thicknesses, FPM and the like?

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2018, 01:11:01 AM »
1MBF is 1,000 bd-ft.  A board foot is 12"x12"x1" - a measure of volume.  A 10' 2x6 is 10 bd-ft.

Band thickness is related to the wheel diameter - the thicker bands (.045 vs. .042) will fatigue and crack going over smaller diameter (<20") wheels.  Also, the wider the blade (1", 1.25", 1.5"...) the thicker the band will likely be.  The wider and thicker the blade, the tighter the band must be stretched.  Also, the more HP you will need.  The wider the cut, the heavier the band (and higher tension) and more HP needed to keep the cut going flat.
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Offline No_Dude

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2018, 01:16:42 AM »
1MBF is 1,000 bd-ft.  A board foot is 12"x12"x1" - a measure of volume.  A 10' 2x6 is 10 bd-ft.

Band thickness is related to the wheel diameter - the thicker bands (.045 vs. .042) will fatigue and crack going over smaller diameter (<20") wheels.  Also, the wider the blade (1", 1.25", 1.5"...) the thicker the band will likely be.  The wider and thicker the blade, the tighter the band must be stretched.  Also, the more HP you will need.  The wider the cut, the heavier the band (and higher tension) and more HP needed to keep the cut going flat.
Thanks for the band explination. I understand that a MBF is 1000BF and how BF is calculated, I just meant for like a size comparison, like a fridge is about X amount of board feet, just so I have a mental image of what it looks like.

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2018, 01:36:12 AM »
OK.  You know a cord of wood is 4' x 4' x 8' or 128 cu-ft of wood.  A cubic foot of wood is 12 bd-ft so a cord is 128 x 12 or 1,536 bd-ft.
John Sawicky

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Offline Ianab

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2018, 01:53:38 AM »
OK.  You know a cord of wood is 4' x 4' x 8' or 128 cu-ft of wood.  A cubic foot of wood is 12 bd-ft so a cord is 128 x 12 or 1,536 bd-ft.
Except a cord of firewood accounts for the air gaps in the stack because the firewood is round or randomly split. When you measure sawn boards there aren't air gaps. 
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Offline No_Dude

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2018, 02:02:46 AM »
That works for me :) Just was looking for a ballpark idea on what it would look like.

Offline Chuck White

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2018, 06:38:37 AM »
Welcome to the Forestry Forum, No_Dude!
~Chuck~
Retired USAF (1989), Retired School Bus Driver (2012), and now a Mobile Sawyer
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Basic mechanical skills are all that's required to maintain the Wood-Mizer.
I LOVE MY SAWMILL

Offline Den-Den

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2018, 09:32:36 AM »
Also on your porta-mills what are the outside rails and the supports that span the inside made of size wise? Any good place to read on the relations of band thicknesses, FPM and the like?
there is a LOT of variation on how sturdy mills are constructed.  The less expensive mills just have angle iron for rails (they need supports placed fairly close together).  Home built mills range from that up to fair size I beams.  My home built uses 4" channel iron made into a truss with angle iron tension members.  If I did it again, would consider using larger steel and leaving off extra work of all that bracing.

Optimum band thickness depends on the diameter of your wheels and your tolerance for band breakage.  Thick bands and small wheels equals short life for the bands.  My wheels are 24" diameter and I get good life with .055" thick bands and can wear out .045" bands without breaking them.
Lots of information about FPM but much of it is about optimum speed for production cutting with high horsepower.  If you are using a smaller engine, those speeds are way too fast.
You may think that you can or may think you can't; either way, you are right.

Offline armechanic

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2018, 10:04:35 AM »
Welcome to the board.  I Mostly try to keep up with all the info on here.  I join the Buffalo National River between Compton and Ponca.
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Offline SawyerTed

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2018, 10:18:50 AM »


Just so you can get a different mental picture - theoretically, 10 logs 18" in diameter 8' long will yield 1000 board feet (more or less).  "Theoretically" because logs aren't perfect cylinders of wood, sweep, taper and other imperfections will reduce that number somewhat. So 11 or 12 logs might be more realistic.
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Offline Crossroads

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2018, 10:29:22 AM »
Welcome!
A fridge that is 36x36x6 tall would figured..
36x36x6=7,776/12=648 bf
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Offline Percy

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2018, 10:54:42 AM »
Welcome!
A fridge that is 36x36x6 tall would figured..
36x36x6=7,776/12=648 bf
BUT....if there is beer in that fridge, your calculations go out the window....specially on a hot day......ya.... ;D ;D
Welcome to the forum No_Dude....
GOLDEN RULE : The guy with the gold, makes the rules.

Offline SawyerTed

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2018, 12:35:00 PM »
Dead stacked a stack of lumber 25"x40"x12' is 1000 board feet
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Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2018, 03:21:47 PM »
Most of my clients are talking about freshly milled lumber.  Generally, a 1000 bf of 8' - 4/4 lumber, stacked 4' deep with 3/4" stickers, would be right at 5' tall.  And 40-50 gallons of sawdust.   ;D
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If you call and my wife says "He's sawin logs", I ain't snorin'.

Offline No_Dude

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2018, 11:31:49 PM »
Sounds like a good stack of wood then. I know this will probably vary widely by region and everything, but for you portable guys, BF and time wise, whats an average job? I have been thinking about if I decide I want to porta-mill on the side, how big of trees are common in my area. I know that we have a lot of probably 20-28's, but some monster tree's arent rare either, and I'd hate to have to turn an opportunity to mill down because I'm too small. What are your opinions sizing wise?  

Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2018, 01:21:39 AM »
There will always be logs too big for your mill.   ;D
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If you call and my wife says "He's sawin logs", I ain't snorin'.

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2018, 10:15:35 AM »
No Dude,

   A little late chiming in but one of the best ways I tell folks to imagine a Mbf of dead stacked lumber is that a a 5X8 tailer stacked 12" high is 480 bf so 2 trailer loads would be just under one Mbf (Actually 960 bf). Actually one trailer stacked 12" (12 rows of 1" lumber) and 13 rows on the second trailer would be exactly one Mbf.

   I find people tend to understand a 5X8 trailer load since it is commonly used and easier and better for people to visualize. 
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Offline bwstout

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2018, 12:17:25 PM »
This is what I know for facts. building your own mill is a rewarding experience when you final cut your first board. You will find some helps in Useful Sawmill Mod threads. I sawed my first board a year ago and just finished another mod this weekend. There is a guy on YouTube named Texas Ben that has a good set of prints he did sale them on eBay I used his prints. The expense for building your mill if you buy all new metal along with the stuff that makes it a mill will cost you about the same as a LT15 wide which is what my mill looks. Even though I could have bought one for less money I am still happy and the knowledge gained of building my mill is valued.   I live in East Texas just south of Texarkana if you are on I 30 to Dallas  or Hy59 to  Houston PM me and you can stop in and see all of the good the bad and ugly of building your on saw  mill ;DHappy Milling.
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Offline No_Dude

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2018, 08:14:33 PM »
Thanks for the offer stour! As for my metal costs, I came across a slew of pallet shelves, and I sure like that rectangle tube it's made out of, can get 2 shelves about 8 foot long for about 100$, so I think that's my rails right there, and the frames could probably be canabalized to make most if not all the bracings. Past that it seems that we are covered up in lawn mower motors, ranging from 10-20 HP, so that was my next major cost. After that it's bearings and sheaves and everything small stuff.

Offline No_Dude

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2018, 08:28:02 PM »
Was talking to a buddy who may want to throw in with me to start sawing logs, and we discussed seeing if we couldn't get with the local tree services since they have to dump their logs SOMEWHERE, why not next to my sawmill :) The question after that became, what do we do with all the lumber? We figured cabinet makers would be the go too for hardwood, and pines and other construction type wood is near non-existent in my part of the state, so contractors are out for the most part, after that  ??? ??? ??? Outside of individuals and cabinet folks, who would be worth trying to sell hardwoods too?

Offline Tom the Sawyer

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2018, 10:00:48 PM »
No_Dude,

You might want to seek out the craft or artisan market. I doubt cabinet shops would be interested; unless you can offer graded, kiln-dried, planed and straight line ripped, in quantities.  Contractors in most areas must use graded, certified lumber when building for human habitation.  Maybe less stringent when building sheds. 
07 Timberking B-20, Custom-made log arch, 20' trailer w/ log loading arch, F350 SD flatbed dump.  Princeton piggy-back forklift.  Bobcat S250, Stihl 025C 16" and a Husqvarna 372XP 24/30" bars, Grizzly 20" planer, Nyle L200M DH kiln.
If you call and my wife says "He's sawin logs", I ain't snorin'.

Offline SawyerTed

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2018, 10:54:55 PM »
First and foremost - create a business plan if you want to make any money in this business AND don't expect to get rich.  I'm making a little money part-time on top of a retirement income that pays my personal bills.  Then expect to hustle.  Can't make money standing around in this business.

Expanding on what Tom shared, after sawing, the secondary processing is what increases lumber value.  Lumber coming off the mill, not dried etc will sell for pennies compared to lumber that is kiln dried and surfaced on four sides.  Then additional secondary processing like tongue and groove for flooring adds value.  A 5/4 pine board of the mill might sell for 60 yo 70 cents a board foot compared to a square foot of high quality pine flooring might sell for $5 to $7 a square (board) foot. But that pine flooring has been kiln dried and molded on four sides with tongue and groove and a relief cut on the back.  More processing requires more machines and more labor.

Otherwise you are selling to the guys building barns and sheds or to the artisans and crafts people who want custom lumber as Tom mentioned. 

There are two sides (at least) to making money at this business.  One is the technical - sawing, stacking, drying, planing, molding etc.  The other is the business/marketing side.  Learn to saw and process wood very well.  Make sure you can produce high quality products.  Then market your skills to at least a couple of segments of your market.   Get established in a couple of segments and the other areas will grow.

In my case I've gotten a good reputation for custom (quarter) sawing red and white oak.  I've also established myself in the non-graded/non-certified construction lumber side.  I've sold/sawn lumber for hobbyist wood workers and have sawn lumber for the artists but I've also sold/sawn many many sticks of lumber to the farmers and hobby farmers around.  The cookie business and rustic garden benches came later.  This month is really the first month that I've covered all expenses and had a balance above where I started - 6 months in.  I'm lucky.

It is not a business that you can be successful without a plan, a market and very hard work both mental and physical.
Woodmizer LT35HD25, Kubota MX5100, IH McCormick Farmall 140, Granberg Alaskan Chainsaw Mill, Husqvarna 372XP, Husqvarna 455 Rancher

Offline No_Dude

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Re: New to the board and the Sawing world
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2018, 12:13:19 PM »
Yea, business planning is where we are at now. I figured I'm a freshman in college, I'm on scholarship, and it'd be something to do on the weekends. Heck class ends at noon for me 3/5 days. In a perfect world I'd start just doing porta/custom milling, until that pays enough to purchase a kiln, until that pays for a planner, until that pays for a moulder/resaw/whatever other equipment. The benefit I have, is that I don't have to feed myself off it, so as long as it pays for itself and a bit, I'd be perfectly happy for the next 4 years. So I suppose a 5 year plan would just be saw to buy tools, and once the tooling is all bought, evaluate my position and see how the market is. Having looked around, my area is covered up in cabinet guys, tonight's search will be other Craftsman, then onto flooring I suppose. Long term if someone wanted to get into making graded lumber, what all goes into that?


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