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Author Topic: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?  (Read 3279 times)

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Offline alan gage

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Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« on: August 16, 2018, 12:31:25 PM »
I'll have a Stihl 661 showing up next week. Will use it with a 28" bar most of the time and a 42" when needed. I feel comfortable running chainsaws. I wear protective gear, try to always be aware of where my bar tip is and how the log is reacting, am comfortable plunge cutting, and I don't use safety chains. Been cutting firewood for over a decade and in the last year have taken down about 90 trees to feed my sawmill and clean up the yard plus cutting up lots of logs that were already down or sourced from others. Current saws are a Stihl MS250 and Echo 680 (67cc). Used an Stihl 036 quite a bit in the past.

I've never used a saw as powerful as the 661. My other saws never feel like anything I can't handle. Have never felt like they were going to overpower me if something went wrong. I think I use good cutting practices but am just wondering if there is anything I should be extra vigilant about with the 661. I don't anticipate any problems using it but would like to avoid any unpleasant surprises if possible.

Thanks,

Alan
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Offline Jack Lilley

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2018, 03:11:01 PM »
I logged professionally for over 10 years with a 440C and Husqvarna or Stihl chainsaws. I most always used a saw around 70cc but did use a large Stihl for a time. Be very careful and hold on tight, a saw with that power can kick very hard and be difficult to hold onto, never get comfortable or confident with a chainsaw of that size, it will get you if you do.

Offline Busysawyer

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2018, 07:52:48 PM »
I run a 201t a 441 and an 880 and the way I use saws I feel like the big one is the safest.  For me the big saw is more of a take my time and plan each cut. Mostly bucking and felling large trees. The small top handle is what concerns me the most due to the way I use it. Mostly limbing down trees very quickly with very little time to think in between cuts. If you are in a comfortable position and are thinking about and planning each cut I doubt you will have an issues.  
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Offline Ianab

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2018, 08:29:20 PM »
In some ways I feel safer with a large saw, because it demands a bit more respect. You tend to be more cautious using, you have to worry about your footing an correct stance etc, just because of the weight and length of the thing.  You have to plan where you are cutting, and heft the saw into place etc. You can't just wave it around like a Jedi lightsaber.  :D

Longer bar means you have pay more attention to where the bar tip is. Make sure you don't go right through the log you are working, and contact something on the other side, that might create a kickback. 

Also, it's heavier work, you get tired quicker, and that's when you make mistakes. 
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Offline Huntr41

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2018, 09:04:04 PM »
I've been cutting with a 661 with the 25 and 32.inchbar for a few months and I have not had any issues. Just mainly bucking logs so not dropping or limbing so pretty good footing. I definitely treat it with respect! But it cuts great! Been cutting for 45 years with many smaller saws.

Offline Ben Cut-wright

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2018, 11:08:57 AM »
I'll have a Stihl 661 showing up next week. Will use it with a 28" bar most of the time and a 42" when needed. I feel comfortable running chainsaws. I wear protective gear, try to always be aware of where my bar tip is and how the log is reacting, am comfortable plunge cutting, and I don't use safety chains. Been cutting firewood for over a decade and in the last year have taken down about 90 trees to feed my sawmill and clean up the yard plus cutting up lots of logs that were already down or sourced from others. Current saws are a Stihl MS250 and Echo 680 (67cc). Used an Stihl 036 quite a bit in the past.

I've never used a saw as powerful as the 661. My other saws never feel like anything I can't handle. Have never felt like they were going to overpower me if something went wrong. I think I use good cutting practices but am just wondering if there is anything I should be extra vigilant about with the 661. I don't anticipate any problems using it but would like to avoid any unpleasant surprises if possible.

Thanks,

Alan
Powerful saws create terrible injuries when an accident occurs.  As such, attention to safety is usually more concerted.  Getting too comfortable with any dangerous power tool is high on the list of accident cause.

My larger Stihls pull start much better with the "D" handles instead of the factory grips.  Kickback during starting can test your pain threshold.

Ianab said it well, but I will repeat as bit.

Spent six hours yesterday felling and bucking with a Echo 900EVL.  Nearly 3 times the dry weight of the Stihl 661, 3' bar, heat index of 110 degrees, it was miserable.  Some climbing, some rigging, only a few fell with wedges. By the time the last dangerous leaner was on the ground, I was soaked from head to toe.  (My metabolism and preferences allow me to enjoy such work in single digit temps.) Don't push being tired or stressed past your limits to properly control any saw.
 
The added weight and dimensions of the Echo 900 probably makes it less prone to getting out of control than the lighter Stihl 661.   Use good operating techniques as you would with other saws, be aware of the greater potential for more serious injury, and never forget that saw has more energy than you can control....if it ever gets the advantage on you. 

ALWAYS try to "anticipate problems" and "unpleasant surprises", at least be constantly aware of the potential for unintended circumstances. 

 

Offline hedgerow

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2018, 11:40:39 AM »
I run a 201t a 441 and an 880 and the way I use saws I feel like the big one is the safest.  For me the big saw is more of a take my time and plan each cut. Mostly bucking and felling large trees. The small top handle is what concerns me the most due to the way I use it. Mostly limbing down trees very quickly with very little time to think in between cuts. If you are in a comfortable position and are thinking about and planning each cut I doubt you will have an issues.  
This hit the nail on the head. I think we get a little too comfortable running smaller saws. I got close to twenty years on you so I never run the big saw towards the end of the day when cutting and splitting wood. Just be careful and enjoy all that power. 

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2018, 12:15:00 PM »
I ran 90cc saws 8 hrs a day 5 days a week for years while heavy pulp cutting . Felling, limbing and topping tree length.
Ran 16" to 20" bars on them and had no problem... but I was alot younger then :D
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2018, 04:22:06 PM »
I got broke in 390 and 395 huskyís bars from 32 to 42 best thing keep your thumb around the handle and learn to drop start a larger saw the longer the bar the easier it is. If you donít feel like youíre up to operating donít just pay attention to your body and what itís telling you.

Offline thecfarm

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2018, 04:36:53 PM »
I ran a big saw like that. Than I grab on to a 50cc one and think it's a toy.  :o But it's not.
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Offline lxskllr

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2018, 05:18:26 PM »
I ran a big saw like that. Than I grab on to a 50cc one and think it's a toy.  :o But it's not.
That's kinda where I'm at, except scaled down. My big saw is 60cc, while my little is 42cc. I don't have the experience most of you have, so I'm probably similar to OP. More cautious, especially regarding where the nose is at, and I keep a firmer grip.
Otherside, is I sometimes find myself doing stupid stuff with the little saw, and I have to call myself out on it, and focus. It's easy to get careless, and it only takes a second for things to go south...

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2018, 07:09:54 PM »
If you can still find the discontinued small radius Oregon PowerMatch DoubleGuard noses you can tame any 90cc saw.
Back in the day the forestry company I worked for made these noses compulsory on all our saws.
No kick back injuries with these "safety noses".

Here's one I'm demonstrating on my 7.8 h.p 066 Mag.


 

 
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Offline Pulphook

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2018, 08:42:59 AM »
All great advice with experience....excellent posts.
As we age the saws get smaller and smaller with shorter bars. From 440s/660s to now the go to saw for me is the MS261 with a 16" or 20" bar.
Why ? That is one powerful little tool.
For us non pros with age ( repeat "age" ) it is less tiring and therefore safer cutting the +/- 6 cords firewood each year plus clearing  trails and blowdowns.
Using a smaller pro saw with shorter bars takes some planning and thinking with DBHs well over the bar length. Plunge/bore cutting is mandated.
Sure it takes more time, but easier on the body, harder on the brain. BTW, those shorter chains are easier to touch up in the woodlot with a stump vise and the 2in1 rigs that do the edge and raker with each pass.
The macho days with the big boy saws and 28" bars are long gone for us non pros. No need for the big saws and bars, and makes the cutting fun.
Furthermore, no chainsaws in hot humid weather for us. ::)
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2018, 09:13:43 AM »
Hereís a big no no in my book a short bar boring with a big power head thatís just asking for it come after you, when doing oversized stuff chase your cut donít bore it.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2018, 11:56:06 AM »
I don't recommend  bore cutting for novices learning on their own. I have trained students to bore cut in a 3 ft high 12" diameter stump in a felling technique with a MS361-16". The students with the best point scores were usually young women.

Stihl no longer sells a 20" ES bar with a huge 13 tooth 3/8" sprocket nose. They were very poplar in  hard wood cutting in the eastern seaboard and parts of Europe. But kickback energy was high on these bars and safety became paramount over durability.
Standard 11 tooth 3/8" noses are a better option.

But as pictured my 9 tooth Oregon Double Guard bores much more smoothly and just as quick as my 11 tooth PowerMatch nose below it.


  
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Offline Pulphook

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2018, 12:34:17 PM »
We do plunge/bore cuts often with DBH trunks > the bar length.
It was one of the techniques taught long ago in the CLP class. The instructor had a contest for 'meeting' the bore on either side of the trunk for the back cut.
It does demand practice, a sharp chain, use of the lower tip starting with caution, and WOT. Most of the pro arborists and pro loggers in the program never used the technique since all had long bars and 90cc saws.
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2018, 01:37:27 PM »
FWIW I had an 084 Stihl decide to mule kick me which must have fractured a bone in my hand because I could predict the weather for about 2 years afterwards .It now wears a D-handle .
Now this drop starting a high cube saw .It's none of my business what anybody does but I personally think it's an unsafe practice.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2018, 01:51:12 PM »
Try starting a saw up on a spring board or one with a 60Ē bar tell me how youíre going to hold it up or set it on the ground to start it? Normally youíll crank them around to top dead then drop/throw start them.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2018, 02:23:49 PM »
Dont stick your leg in front of the bars path .. Big saw kickback isnt nearly as much a problem as operator fatigue and holding the dang thing up. The mass of the saw will dissipate more kickback energy compared to an ultra light tophandle. But gravity will bring that big bar straight down when you pull it out of the cut so stay clear of that spot.  

Dont drop it on your foot.

Dont fall off the log youre walking on and land ontop that big saw.  Ie, when youre gonna fall throw that sucker as far as you can.  

Dont forget to set the chainbrake and swing the bar behind you when carrying it by the top handle with saw still idling.  This way the bar wont catch a snag and cross your path.  


When you bore cut, start by making a gill by using the bottom corner of the nose on the pull side, throwing chips at you.  Your bar will start at a 45* angle from your hinge and clip a corner off the opposite side hold wood.  Get some depth in this bevel cut to create a pocket for the bar, before swinging the power head, at full throttle,  90 to the trunk (parallel to the hinge cut) and then push straight in.   I think full throttle tends to kick back less than feathering. The fiber cant resist shearing at WOT (unless you hit a hollow chimney in the tree.. It can kick as you try to enter the far side of the chimney)

 I also kinda wallow in on a plunge so that its a bit wider than the bar.  I think it makes clearance for chip ejection and takes less power.  Start a bit further back than the final hinge line so you can creep up to set the finished thickness nice and clean and planned out.  This avoids the "oh crap i clipped too much hinge and might lose this tree any second" panic.

Oh and get a bigger gas can.  They drink. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2018, 05:31:50 PM »
What you folks do on the left coast I haven't a clue.Never been there .A 60" bar you just don't see in these parts .Fact I've got the longest two in probably a 6 county area in these parts .48" that fits on a few vintage old school red wood killers ,Mac 125 and Homelite 2100S  .The 084 has a 42" .This I can say the danged things are heavy .About like a 16 pound bowling ball on the end of a broom stick .Never saw a spring board other than at the timber sports shows . :)

Offline lxskllr

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2018, 06:36:30 PM »
How do you guys line up your bore when going in from two sides? That's a small target to hit exactly right. Close enough is close enough?

Offline Ianab

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2018, 07:00:26 PM »
How do you guys line up your bore when going in from two sides? That's a small target to hit exactly right. Close enough is close enough?
As long as your cuts overlap then "close enough" works. The wood that's left is a weak piece of cross grain and snaps off easily.  I generally use bore cutting on forward leaning trees, so when it's all set up and you cut the holding strap, any little piece of cross grain isn't an issue.
Heck I messed a couple up big time when I get new progressive lens glasses. The distortion down  my vision field made it hard to judge if the saw was level. (it wasn't  :D ) Cuts missed by about 4". Tree still went where I wanted it, and I trimmed the stump to hide the evidence.  :-[
What I usually do now do is sit the saw into the notch side to work out the "level". Then drag it out, swing the bar back, and start the plunge cut in behind the hinge. That gets you at about the right height and level, or at least "close enough". 
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Offline lxskllr

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2018, 07:17:52 PM »

Heck I messed a couple up big time when I get new progressive lens glasses. The distortion down  my vision field made it hard to judge if the saw was level. (it wasn't  :D ) Cuts missed by about 4". Tree still went where I wanted it, and I trimmed the stump to hide the evidence.  :-[
Glad to hear confirmation of that. I got glasses last time at walmart, and the exam doctor was a little strange. Said I needed bifocals which is technically true, but I didn't want them cause I need my vision consistent, if not perfect. I work at heights a fair amount, and need to be able to see close and far at the same time, and at the same angle.  She acted like she was *pithed cause I didn't accept her recommendation, and didn't want to sell me the glasses I wanted. So far, I can look over the top and see up close fine. I need to know where my feet are though, and she didn't get it.

Offline Ianab

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2018, 01:56:15 AM »
Don't get me wrong, I like my progressives. I'm badly short sighted and have worn glasses since about age 6. But as I get older a bit of normal long sightedness is kicking in as well, and I could no longer read through my single prescription lenses, and even reading a screen became a hassle. Short sighted eyes used to be able to adjust down to reading through the long distance glasses, now they can't. 

Your brain soon compensates for the distorted view, just it might take a week or 2. If you need them, get them before you take annual leave. That way you can bumble around for a few days and get used to them. :D

And they weren't cheap glasses.  :-\ The titanium frames (very light) were on special, but paid more for the high refractive and wider focus angle, to keep peripheral vision, and not be wearing Coke Bottles. 
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Offline ZeroJunk

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2018, 01:24:35 PM »
I have tried progressive lenses and the problem I had was at distance the only useable part of the lense was maybe the top 1/4 inch. So, if I was walking I almost had to have my chin on my chest to see. Likely just a bad pair for whatever reason.

I don't find anything necessarily more hazardous about a larger saw. As some have said you will get yourself in to tighter working areas with a smaller saw, you can maneuver them faster sometimes at your peril, doesn't take as much inertia to move them,and you may take them less seriously.

Sort of like studying every aspect of falling a big tree and then bang yourself up on something small.

Offline Pulphook

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2018, 04:23:22 PM »
60" bar on a springboard ! Fugetabowtit !
Nothing like like that or needed with our Eastern timber. For this firewood non-pro the largest I've felled is ~ 36 DBH WITH my baby  ;) 16" bar on the MS261.
Besides, I couldn't begin to handle a 90cc 60"bar. The springboard ( whatever that is ??? ) scares the bejesus out of me. I cut for firewood, for clearing and volunteer trails, for fun.
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Offline Dave Shepard

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2018, 06:30:50 PM »
Google "150' up and still 7' in diameter". Jerry Beranek 150' up a redwood with a 7' bar on an 090 on springboards with a cast on his leg.
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Offline realzed

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2018, 07:15:33 PM »

Back in the day the forestry company I worked for made these noses compulsory on all our saws.
No kick back injuries with these "safety noses".

Here's one I'm demonstrating on my 7.8 h.p 066 Mag.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Willard: Excuse my inexperience here - but what makes this type of nose so less prone or 'next to impossible' (my take on what you stated) to get kickback from.. Is it the pointed shape of the nose or something else I'm not seeing?  My 20" bar on my 261 looks to have pretty much the same pointed tip as the one you show as being best for kickback issues verses the rounder (bigger radius) that the 18" and 16" versions seem normally to come as standard on a 261..  Guess what I'm sort of asking is, if a bar has the more pointed and sharper radius is or does that constitute one with less likelihood of kicking back?  

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2018, 06:25:30 AM »
Google "150' up and still 7' in diameter". Jerry Beranek 150' up a redwood with a 7' bar on an 090 on springboards with a cast on his leg.
I've got a signed copy of that picture as well as signed copies of some of his books .The story behind that redwood is very interesting .It's also interesting about old school old growth cutting which is something you just don't see on the east coast or the heart land .Mrs Beranek ,Teri is one of my FB friends .

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2018, 06:37:18 AM »
I might add on the above it was staging supported by spring boards and bracing around the top of that big red wood .The cut was started by I think an 051 or 052  Stihl then followed by that 090 with that monster bar and I'll wager a good sum he didn't drop start  it .

I can't imagine what that thing must have weighed because my McCulloch 125 with a 48" tips the scales at over 40 pounds .

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #30 on: August 20, 2018, 07:52:17 AM »
I might add on the above it was staging supported by spring boards and bracing around the top of that big red wood .The cut was started by I think an 051 or 052  Stihl then followed by that 090 with that monster bar and I'll wager a good sum he didn't drop start  it .

I can't imagine what that thing must have weighed because my McCulloch 125 with a 48" tips the scales at over 40 pounds .
Iíll bet you he did, how else do you start a long bar saw? You set the tip on the boards then drop throw out well pulling back on the rope.

Offline Pulphook

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #31 on: August 20, 2018, 08:20:21 AM »
Never a "drop throw" start for this one. Unsafe. Call me "chicken" :(, but starting is either in the crotch hold (tight) or on the ground.
Too much torque in most pro saws ( even the 261) to throw the running saw out of your hands.
Only up a tree with my top handled saw will I drop start.
How many of you engage the brake BEFORE starting anyhow ? I do, since saw are like firearms and ordinance .....to me.

Are springboards and 60" bars still used out on the left coast ?
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #32 on: August 20, 2018, 08:25:35 AM »
Yeah once in a blue Iíve got a 60 for special oversized wood or where itís somewhere you donít want to board up. Thereís nothing like cutting your own boards and hoping they hold when climbing up.

Offline teakwood

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #33 on: August 20, 2018, 08:35:18 AM »
For many years i dropstarted the 088 with a 36"bar, that's fun!  If you don't have a good stand the saw can flip you over
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Offline hedgerow

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #34 on: August 20, 2018, 09:09:31 AM »
I might add on the above it was staging supported by spring boards and bracing around the top of that big red wood .The cut was started by I think an 051 or 052  Stihl then followed by that 090 with that monster bar and I'll wager a good sum he didn't drop start  it .

I can't imagine what that thing must have weighed because my McCulloch 125 with a 48" tips the scales at over 40 pounds .
About 20 years ago we bought a farm that had a house and buildings on it. There were two giant cottonwood trees in the yard that towered over top the three story house that needed to come down. Back then I didn't have a big saw. There was a gentleman in our area that had retired from the phone company in his 50's and did tree work. He came in with his bucket truck and saws and took down the two big cottonwoods. Watching him drop start his Stihl 90 with a 60 inch bar on it made my shoulders hurt. He was a giant of a man. I always start saws on the ground with the brake on. Even my smaller top handled saw.  

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #35 on: August 20, 2018, 09:50:25 AM »
Summer of 1984 I was standing at the counter of Madsen's saw shop in Centralia, Washington.
 Sam Madsen just gave me a reconditioned 60 inch General bar with a Oregon 2 7/8" roller nose.
Sam actually gave me this bar as a gift telling me I could shorten it up to make a bar for my Yamaha bikesaw.

Just as I was holding it a veteran timberfaller in full working gear walks in and says to me "where are you cutting the big wood !!"
He said he hasn't seen a 5 footer working for years.
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #36 on: August 20, 2018, 09:56:00 AM »
A couple years back Washington state changed some rules allowing a lot of the left over old growth to be cut, at the time they didnít have anything in over 42Ē and 95cc.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #37 on: August 20, 2018, 09:58:48 AM »

Back in the day the forestry company I worked for made these noses compulsory on all our saws.
No kick back injuries with these "safety noses".

Here's one I'm demonstrating on my 7.8 h.p 066 Mag.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)

Willard: Excuse my inexperience here - but what makes this type of nose so less prone or 'next to impossible' (my take on what you stated) to get kickback from.. Is it the pointed shape of the nose or something else I'm not seeing?  My 20" bar on my 261 looks to have pretty much the same pointed tip as the one you show as being best for kickback issues verses the rounder (bigger radius) that the 18" and 16" versions seem normally to come as standard on a 261..  Guess what I'm sort of asking is, if a bar has the more pointed and sharper radius is or does that constitute one with less likelihood of kicking back?  
Randy, yes smaller nose radius reduces kickback energy through a shorter curve in the upper quadrant area of the nose. All relative to sprocket tooth count.
Here's some pics.
On a side note Stihl discontinued a 13 tooth 3/8" sprocket nose because of liability.


 

 
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #38 on: August 20, 2018, 10:03:26 AM »
A couple years back Washington state changed some rules allowing a lot of the left over old growth to be cut, at the time they didnít have anything in over 42Ē and 95cc.
I figured that had something to do with it in that state.
When I was in Wayne's Saw Shop in Amboy, Washington that summer Wayne Sutton says to me "you have to go to Oregon to see some really big wood their logging."
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #39 on: August 20, 2018, 10:17:19 AM »
Itís not all that uncommon to see a 3 log load headed to Stimson in Clatskanie, a couple years back o did a 2 log load thatíll put a big grin on your face.

Offline realzed

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #40 on: August 20, 2018, 10:22:04 AM »
Sorry if I'm being dense - but why if a bar all but eliminates kickback, would a company (Stihl or any other) discontinue it for 'liability' reasons?  Seems to me, unless I'm not getting it here - that it would be an ideal thing to have in a lineup verses some that would have known issues that come with dangerous consequences in comparison..
I understand why the smaller radius could make a contact area of the bar sharper and more prone to dig in to a section of wood, thus making boring easier and the tip less likely to bounce up when fewer teeth engage the wood at a time and at a sharper angle, verses a bar with a larger radius - but in my eyes that would make a bar a lot more desirable not less - unless there are other factors at play that I'm not realizing in this..    

Offline sawguy21

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #41 on: August 20, 2018, 11:14:35 AM »
He is saying they discontinued the wider 13 tooth nose.
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #42 on: August 20, 2018, 12:35:58 PM »
I think what realzed Randy is saying is why were the small radius replaceable nose bars discontinued.

Well for one Stihl never sold a small radius replaceable nose bar. That was only the doing of Oregon and Windsor.
I should have quoted Stihl discontinued the 20" 13 tooth ES bar. I think the 25" might be gone too. Plus maybe I was too quick to say it was their decision to do that for liability reasons.

I remember back in the early 1980's when loggers in our area were starting to buy Stihl saws, the 11 tooth bars that came with them couldn't be used on the job site because of the companies  3/8" pitch 9 tooth safety policy. It drove Stihl nuts .
Eventually after switching from 16"- 20" Windsor rebadged bars to Oregon painted grey with the Stihl logo were they able to supply 9T professional bars.
At the time for Stihl to sell saws in Canada they had to sell a Canadian made bar with the powerhead. Only German made bars 25" and over could be sold with the powerhead in Canada.

But today with far less demand for pro grade  replaceable nose 9 tooth bars the Double Guard is only available in consumer grade 1 piece laminated bars.

But keep an eye out for old inventory Oregon PowerMatch Double Guard noses and Windsor Mini Pro bars, their still out there.
That reminds me Cannon sells a pro grade safety nose bar called the Super Mini. I got a 18" and still going strong, I believe they make a 20" and 24" with that setup with a Windsor Mini Pro style tip.

Now back to my MS261C muffler mod test :)

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Offline alan gage

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #43 on: August 20, 2018, 03:28:40 PM »
Thanks for all the input. Some real good advice that I'll take to heart.

As for if I really need a saw/bar this big I'll readily admit that I don't. The 16" bar on my 250 has cut up some 30"+ logs and the 24" bar on the Echo has taken down some ~36" trees as well. But the Echo doesn't seem very happy pulling that 24" bar and sometimes I get impatient when I have a day where I'm cutting a fair amount of large trees/logs. But the real reason for getting the 661 and 42" bar is that I scored (or maybe was cursed with?) a 42" pine log that will need to be split by chainsaw before going on the mill. I thought about doing it from both sides with the Echo and 24" bar but I just don't think the saw would appreciate that very much. I've kind of been itching to try a big saw anyway so this was my justification. I got what I feel is a good deal on a used one so went for it. I'll leave a 28" bar on the 661 for general cutting and take the Echo down to a 20" bar to hopefully make it a little more peppy. By the time I bought the used 661 power head, 28" and 42" bar and chains for the 661 and a 20" bar and chains for the Echo I'm right at $1k so as long as the used saw turns out to be a good saw I'm happy and can justify the purchase. I don't plan on lugging around the 661 all day so the Stihl 250 and Echo 680 will still be my go-to saws and the 661 will come out as needed.

Alan
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Offline Pulphook

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #44 on: August 20, 2018, 04:10:03 PM »
Now back to my MS261C muffler mod test :)
Pics please of your 261 mod ? ( Pretty please :-[)
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Offline Al_Smith

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #46 on: August 20, 2018, 05:33:09 PM »
I just dug up that pic of the big red wood .It was as a said planked over the spring boards .Now weather Jerry B dropped say 60 pounds of saw with a  7 foot bar over the side I can't say and won't argue about it .I wasn't there .No matter how it was done I'm sure it was a chore .
FWIW I had a 70 cc saw close the decomp on a drop and climb the rope .If it would have started it could have cut my arm off .It was a wake up call I've heeded every since .Call me a wuss but I'm kind of fond of having two arms and all my fingers . ;D My goodness how could I pick my nose ?

Offline Dave Shepard

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #47 on: August 20, 2018, 06:18:00 PM »
In his videos, Jerry holds the rear handle with his right hand and pulls with his left. This is with an 066. It's sort of like drop starting, but the bar is usually on a log or something. 
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Offline ZeroJunk

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #48 on: August 20, 2018, 07:51:18 PM »
I don't see any point in John Q Public drop starting a big saw unless there is no place to set it on the ground and stick the toe end of your boot in the handle.  What do you save, a second or two ?

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #49 on: August 20, 2018, 08:00:05 PM »
The novelty of running a high cube saw with a long bar wears off in a very short time .Been there ,it wasn't all that much fun .

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #50 on: August 20, 2018, 08:29:47 PM »
In his videos, Jerry holds the rear handle with his right hand and pulls with his left. This is with an 066. It's sort of like drop starting, but the bar is usually on a log or something.
This is how I was taught to start the larger saws or if thereís no log tip on ground but the same motion it works great the weight helps you start the saw.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #51 on: August 20, 2018, 08:32:32 PM »
I don't see any point in John Q Public drop starting a big saw unless there is no place to set it on the ground and stick the toe end of your boot in the handle.  What do you save, a second or two ?
A long bar say a 60Ē or so I donít want to lift it anymore then I have they will kill a back fast. Think of the start with them as more of a rowing motion where one hand is going forward with the saw well the other has the rope pulling back.

Offline ZeroJunk

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #52 on: August 21, 2018, 02:17:39 AM »
I don't see any point in John Q Public drop starting a big saw unless there is no place to set it on the ground and stick the toe end of your boot in the handle.  What do you save, a second or two ?
A long bar say a 60Ē or so I donít want to lift it anymore then I have they will kill a back fast. Think of the start with them as more of a rowing motion where one hand is going forward with the saw well the other has the rope pulling back.
I'm sure pros have reasons and the skill. But, I have seen customers do some jerking and yanking that makes me cringe.

Offline charles mann

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2018, 04:45:49 AM »
not a pro by any means, but my dad felled timber for 10 yrs as source of income, he used an 066 with anywhere from a 20" to a 42" and even those old bow bars, and he drop started every time. so as i got old enough to run a saw, i drop started and been doing ever since, and never a kick back, not even on the saws my dad removed the brakes on. iv been bumped 2x in 15 yrs of running a saw, luckily, the saw was in spool down and my steel toed justins slowed it down enough to only scratch the top of my foot. the sec time, during spool down, it caught my pants, tore the material and nicked my knee cap, nearly the same place my dad got cut, but his, both times, went to bone. My 2 and my dad's 2 incidents were both caused by a dang green stick, no bigger than writing pencil. NOW, running an old husq 372, 3yr old jonesred 2166 (husq 372 but cheaper) and my 661, I'm glad i listened to my dad and some old timers, and left the brakes on, bc green briars or yopauns (spelling check) have kicked them back on me, and the brake engaged, allowing me to still have both my legs and feet. I will NEVER run a saw without a brake. 

I have had the saws yank my knuckles into the recoil housing, skinning them up, but not yet, have they kicked back during a drop start. 

As to the OP, as others have said, TAKE YOUR TIME, plan your cuts and ALWAYS have a good footing and stance before bringing the engine up to cutting speed and setting your dawgs into the tree. those big saw, even my 20 yr old 372 have enough tq to throw you off balance, and if it lands on you, good chance it will be a hospital visit, or a trip to the morgue.   
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Offline gspren

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2018, 11:30:26 AM »
Mr Mann, sounds like a good set of chainsaw chaps would have saved your dad and you some blood.
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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2018, 12:50:19 PM »
Mr Mann, sounds like a good set of chainsaw chaps would have saved your dad and you some blood.
Oh, it would have. But poor folks couldnt afford them. 
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Offline John Mc

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2018, 07:45:03 PM »
Mr Mann, sounds like a good set of chainsaw chaps would have saved your dad and you some blood.
Oh, it would have. But poor folks couldnt afford them.
I consider chaps & helmet just another cost of owning a chainsaw, like chains and fuel. They are easier to afford than the ER bill and the time off work.
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Offline charles mann

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2018, 04:30:33 AM »
Mr Mann, sounds like a good set of chainsaw chaps would have saved your dad and you some blood.
Oh, it would have. But poor folks couldnt afford them.
I consider chaps & helmet just another cost of owning a chainsaw, like chains and fuel. They are easier to afford than the ER bill and the time off work.
you are correct sir, a LOT cheaper than an er visit and better than a trip to the morgue. but back in the 80s, we didn't go to a human dr, we went to a vet, it was cheaper and the meds were the same. depending the injury, self treatment or call a friend was what we, well, i should say my dad, since i was 7-8 yrs old, did. with both his knee cuts, he spent $25 for stitches and antibiotics and took 1 day off after getting cut and went back the next day. single parent life didn't leave much room for safety in his eyes, food in my belly, cloths on my back and a roof over my head was his #1 priority, everything else came sec, or not at all. 
i know i should use chaps and don't use them, not that i can't afford them, but I'm just stupid and asking for an injury. when i was milling with my alaskan mill, i really thought about buying them, especially since my upper legs and lower torso was within striking range/level of the chain. i definitely don't wear a skid lid at hm bc I'm not required to wear it. we are mandated by osha and our company safety policies to wear them at work now, and i don't how many times iv knocked my noggin bc i had it on. but, as a supervisor, i have to lead by example and wear the dang thing. plus my paycheck wouldn't be what it is if i didn't wear it. 
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Offline alan gage

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2018, 09:50:40 AM »
The new (to me) 661 showed up on Wednesday and the new bars and chain showed up yesterday. Gassed her up, slapped the 42" bar on it and went to town cutting half a dozen cookies off a 40" pine. Pretty impressive saw. I'm happy with it so far. It's definitely not something I'd want to lug around all day but for intermittent use I think it will be fine. The 28" bar should handle a little better. Sure does fill up your pockets with sawdust in a hurry.

Alan
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Offline Pulphook

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2018, 03:42:08 PM »
Saw for your age Alan. If ( and only if  :D) I were 40 the 661 or other big boy saw would be in the kit along with the 42 or 60 inchers.
Got to be aware of where your body is.....we learned long ago to use situational awareness. Not a hill to die on.
The MS261 con 16" does all I need.....and it is still fun.
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Offline alan gage

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #60 on: August 27, 2018, 06:21:12 PM »
The MS261 con 16" does all I need.....and it is still fun.
 

No doubt it's like most things: the more you know the less you need.

Used the 661 and 42" bar to rip this 40-42" pine down the center. Sorry, in progress or after pics.



Went pretty well. It was certainly work but not bad. Tried a plunge cut just for fun and it's certainly different with the long bar. Takes more pressure to make the nose bite in instead of just climbing up the bark. Both halves have been cut up on the sawmill and the lumber and slabs are stickered and drying. Some really nice looking 25" slabs if they behave themselves while drying.

Looking forward to putting the 28" bar on and cutting some regular sized wood. The 20" bar I put on the Echo 680 sure feels better than the 24" did.

Alan
Timberking B-16

Offline krustysurfer

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Re: Cautions to take with 90cc saws?
« Reply #61 on: Yesterday at 04:09:11 PM »
I ran a big saw like that. Than I grab on to a 50cc one and think it's a toy.  :o But it's not.
(personal story here) on the last job- going from 372xp to a Echo 2511t- it was ridiculous! two close calls on the first day- knicked a boot first day with what is definitely not a toy saw!and i don't think i have ever done that (53 here) every time i pick up that little tiger i have to remind myself to be extra extra careful............ blessings and aloha to you
You are Awesome and Loved By God! Aloha


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