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Author Topic: Hydraulic Sawmill  (Read 4780 times)

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Offline Southside logger

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #20 on: August 19, 2018, 08:16:18 AM »
In a sawmill application torque is your friend, thus why electric is the answer with industrial sized equipment. I am not convinced a 22r would perform the way you are hoping it will. My guess is they produce their top HP at an RPM that is a long way out of the torque curve, so when she needs that extra to get through twisted grain or big knots it just might not have the ability to muscle through without dropping off on RPM's to a point where it's too slow for the band.

Not trying to discourage your project, but if you have access to an experienced sawyer with a WM1000 and $1K will do the job you need then unless you are building this beast for the challenge then that is a much more economical solution.
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Online charles mann

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #21 on: August 19, 2018, 02:45:08 PM »
Southside, 
The low tq at rpm speed is what i thinking too, there wouldnt be enough. I think ill go with a 40-50hm diesel, belt drive for the band and put a pump/motor for the rasie/lower and carriage trolley. 
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Online charles mann

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2018, 02:13:58 AM »
well, iv located several engines, a 44hp kubota diesel, a 67hp perkins, already attached to a hydraulic power unit (not going hydraulic band wheel drive though) and a cummins 4bt. the cummins is $1000 per cylinder, but local for me, but still the last choice if possible, the others are either in northern idaho, or just across the border in washington and they are closer to my price range.

I am sorry if I'm asking a lot of questions, but i have been given a LOT of GREAT advise, i will follow/learn from those who have been down that road before. Iv gotten to where i look at things in the perspective of "you get what you pay for" and skimping on things can and most often DO lead to negative consequences. So following yaws advise, I'm dropping the hydraulic drive option and going conventional. "Why reinvent the wheel?" as the saying goes.

I still may run hydraulics for the carriage drive and maybe for the raise/lower, unless 12 vdc would be better. Which is where the question of chain/sprocket or pulley/belt comes to play.  
Now that I'm not going hydraulic drive for the band, which would be recommended, chain and sprocket drive or belt and pulley drive?
 
I'm sure, after reading a few replies, that more than 1 belt, and assuming more than 1 sprocket will be required on the drive wheel. Going chain, if something happens, i could go to tractor supply for the weekend break downs, or the john deere dealer during the week days and get chain and possibly sprocket. Which is why I'm leaning to chain/sprocket. 
Belts, i fear will have to be custom ordered, unless i build to what i can get locally at napa or john deere, or even the big rig service/parts centers locally, IF they even carry in stock the size (diameter/thickness, not length so much) belt. Im assuming and probably correct in my assumption, that normal automotive belts wont hold up to the stresses that will be encountered. But iv been wrong many times before on things. That is how we learn, form our mistakes. 

Again, Thank You all for your help and advice. 
 
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Offline Southside logger

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2018, 09:56:27 AM »
Hopefully some others will chime in on the engines here as I seem to recall some issues have been around the Perkins when used in a sawmill application - I want to say it's a side loading issue on the crank but never having owned one I could be off on that.  Baker uses a 4BT on their mills, and Woodmizer has plenty of Kubota engines running out there.

As far as the up / down, forward / reverse, the chain system on the Woodmizers works very well.  Up / down is a climbing motor on a fixed roller chain and the forward / reverse is off the hanging chain on the side of the frame with a gear pulling through the chain.  I know of a couple guys who had mills where the chain was mounted on top of the frame rail and sawdust / sticks / debris can be an issue getting jammed in there.  With both motors I would think that hydraulic will give you longer life and better vertical hold as your head won't be light when you are done.    
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Riehl Edger
Woodmaster 725 and 4000 planner and moulder
Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2018, 12:33:48 PM »
A hanging vertical chain is sort of a poor mans gear rack and pinion, not a bad design at all.  12vdc winch and cables  is another cheap and straightforward means.



However you choose to raise and lower, hold capacity is very important.  If you dont want to be setting a clamp brake with every height change, then you need a lot of gear reduction to hold.  Either worm drive gear box, winch motor planetary, or a positive lock such as a boat winch.  


Winch motors themselves are not terribly impressive without the planetary.  I am inclined to say v8 starter motors put out considerably more torque for a lot less money in direct drive and are a lot more available on sunday afternoon.  You can modify starter to run a pulley or sprocket pretty easy.  Delco 10MT is a real good platform to fool with imo.  Cheap and super easy to rebuild or mod.

A 12vdc reversing contactor is the name of the part you will want to make dc motors run two ways.  
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Online charles mann

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2018, 02:47:09 PM »
What about using chain to drive the band wheels? 
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Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2018, 04:24:12 PM »
What about using chain to drive the band wheels?
Would work well except that you need to keep it lubed and that is going to attract a LOT of sawdust.  I think there would be a sawdust build up problem - more so than v-belts sometimes get.  The maintenance would be a little higher with chain than v-belts.  On the positive side, it wouldn't slip!
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Offline Hilltop366

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2018, 06:33:43 PM »
Welcome to the forum charles mann.

A chain will be noisier than the a belt (thinking back to my motorcycling days) but it may not matter because the blade in the wood will be noisier than the chain.

Perhaps a plus of a chain will not need near as much tension as a belt which will put less side load on bearings.

I forget the exact "rules" for chain but there is a way to chose the sprocket sizes that works better for less vibration and longer wear. I'm thinking it is to avoid a tooth count that will divide evenly into each other. An example is a 6 tooth drive and a 24 tooth driven would cause more vibration and faster wear than if it was a 7tooth drive and a 24tooth driven. 

Unless you will continue to find extra large logs I would think hiring out the sawing for those ones could be a bargain, don't forget you have to transport those monsters too.

Offline Southside logger

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2018, 09:35:23 PM »
Helos can fly on piston engines too... but is it a good idea? Drive belts last a long time, barring some odd band break and they are actually cheap for the hours you get out of one. I would build your drive and connection to match with a commercially available triple belt and call it good.

The other issue is clutching a chain vs a belt which just slips into tension. You do need a weak point in the system and having a belt slip is a lot better than having a chain break apart at 2500 RPM.
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Enough cows to ensure there is no spare time.

Offline Satamax

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #29 on: August 20, 2018, 11:58:35 PM »
Charles Mann, reading your thread made me think about this. Hydraulic driven bandwheel. 

 

Sorry for the annoying music. 

As for power plants, isn't there many us pickups fitted with 4BT engines? 
French CD4 sawmill. Latil TL 73. Self moving hydraulic crane. Iveco daily 4x4 lwb.

Online charles mann

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2018, 12:21:42 AM »
Helos can fly on piston engines too... but is it a good idea? 

The other issue is clutching a chain vs a belt which just slips into tension. You do need a weak point in the system and having a belt slip is a lot better than having a chain break apart at 2500 RPM.
Helis have been flying on piston engines since the early 40s, and are still produced today. 
Turbines came into play bc of the power to weight ration. The engine on my hele is a lil over 4000 shp and weighs in around 1500 lbs wet and including the nose box. 
Belts are not out of the question, was just inquiring bout them and their longevity and drive cababilities over belts. 
Id stock an extra set of belts or chain and sprockets, which ever way i go. 
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Online charles mann

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #31 on: August 21, 2018, 01:51:45 AM »
Welcome to the forum charles mann.

A chain will be noisier than the a belt (thinking back to my motorcycling days) but it may not matter because the blade in the wood will be noisier than the chain.
 

Unless you will continue to find extra large logs I would think hiring out the sawing for those ones could be a bargain, don't forget you have to transport those monsters too.
I'm sure that diesel engine will drown out the chain noise, along with the band cutting through the wood.
trust, i haven't forgot about those big logs. iv loaded the black walnut 2x, red oak 4x and both my live oaks 2x already. my tractor with 3ooo# of lift wont even budge the pecan logs. since iv moved everything but the pecan to another location on my property, ill set my mill up by them first, mill them and haul them to my conex kiln a few boards at a time, since i have to haul them inside the conex 1 at a time. once that stuff is milled, ill put the axles under it and haul it over to the pecans and winch them to the mill since the logs are off the side of my driveway and i don't want to block it. 
i do have a place I'm harvesting red oak off of and there are 5 more trees in the 36"-42" range. once those are milled, ill relocate my idler wheel closer to the drive for anything under 36". 
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Online charles mann

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #32 on: August 21, 2018, 02:16:22 AM »
As for power plants, isn't there many us pickups fitted with 4BT engines?
if there are, I'm not finding any, and the engine i am finding are 2000 miles away in the northwest or here in tx, they want a 1/4 of a gold bar for them. 2 appeared today, 1 running, but wants $3500 for it and the other 1, needs a starter, radiator, cooling hoses, alternator, wiring for the electrical system and he want $3000, but it comes with a spare head, 4000 rpm governor spring, 47RE xmsn, engine stand extra peanut cover, water pump and he said a bunch of other stuff, but didn't list it, just said to come to houston and take a look see. its had the p-pump turned up and the fire ringed the head. i have no use for the xmsn, but the stock head, water pump and peanut cover might come in handy.
 
hell, the price of either engine is already just under half the allocated build cost. I'm gonna have to pinch pennies to be able to buy the band wheels, guides, carriage wheels, and i haven't even gotten to the lifting of the head yet in my budgeting. 
i havent figured the lifting part out yet. i was thinking of using linear rails and guide bearings and either 1.5" or 2" acme rod, and still might, but i also thought about welding up a box to go around the carriage vertical support beams and bolting on 1/4" UHMW on all 4 side of each beam and drill/ tap for a grease zerk fitting and scrubbers to clean the UHMW as the head moves up or down. when UHMW is wet/greased, it is slicker than owl poop on a hickory limb
i may go as some have mentioned, winch cable, but instead of the electric winch, go hydraulic winch. 
there are a LOT of small things in haven't worked out yet, gonna play it by ear as i build and keep reading and asking questions. i just can't read what someone types and understand it, nor hear the words and put it together. i am a monkey see, monkey do kind of monkey. 
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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #33 on: August 21, 2018, 02:38:30 PM »
CharlesCharles, nother source of engines, old farm equipement. Old combines, tractors, backhoes etc. 
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Online charles mann

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2018, 02:32:54 AM »
CharlesCharles, nother source of engines, old farm equipement. Old combines, tractors, backhoes etc.
thank you for your insight. i followed your advise and started looking, but folks are wanting as much for them old tractors/equipment as 1 of the motors mentioned above. i decided to inquire about the running unit, and the guy said it was a ground power cart from an airport and that he would sell it for 3k just to get rid of it. i figure before separating the motor, id see about getting the power cart fixed, producing electricity, and then divorce the motor and put an electric motor in place of the diesel and use the electrical side at my hanger, or maybe sell it, depending what it will cost to make spark. thank you for your input. i hadn't thought about old farm/construction equipment. 
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Offline tacks Y

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2018, 08:08:59 AM »
Sorry a little late to this. There is/was a Logmaster LM5 on Ebay. They ran the band with hyd, you may want to take a look and call LM for advise.

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2018, 08:11:25 AM »
Sorry just looked at Ebay and did not see it.

Offline ladylake

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2018, 08:25:56 AM »

 The LM5 is using a 85 HP Cummins with maybe 60 hp to the blade.  Steve
Timberking B20 12000 hours +  Case75xt grapple + forks+8" snow bucket + dirt bucket   770 Oliver   Lots(too many) of chainsaws, Like the Echo saws and the Stihl and Husky     W5  Case loader   1  trailers  Wright sharpener     Dino setter Volvo MCT125c skid loader

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2018, 09:52:23 AM »
30gpm at 2000psi is gonna want 40 hp (at below 3000rpm, preferably 2000 rpm ) plus substantial cooling and a whole lot of 1" hoses.  Its gonna be a serious project.  


Id look at refer takoff units for a 3 cylinder steady state governed diesel.  Find a running thermoking on CL or a truck wrecker.  Youll get the motor, radiator and sufficient cooling all in one tidy unit. Just get your pump, tank and return filters grafted into the cabinet and itll look pretty sharp. 

For salvage hydraulics, scrapped bean pickers, trenchers, fairway mowers and tennant sweepers have a lot of otherwise very expensive high end compentry you wouldnt find elsewhere that are adaptable to debarking and sawing.  The old stuff all ran popular american branded componentry that is still generally rebuildable.  Eaton charlynn vickers sunstrand etc etc
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Re: Hydraulic Sawmill
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2018, 12:46:26 PM »
I have a straight six high output 4.0 liter out of a Jeep. Complete. TBI. I keep trying to find a good place to use it since I can't seem to sell it to anyone.

Thought about putting a generator head on it and converting everything on the mill to run electric.
I knew what I thought I meant.


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