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Author Topic: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting  (Read 2192 times)

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Offline jemmy

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1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« on: August 29, 2018, 11:14:40 AM »
When I purchased this mill the previous owner had a 56" blade mounted. I don't want to mess up that blade in my learning curve so I swapped it out for a 48" blade. The issue is that I need to move the blade guide back and situate it on the 48" blade. How far onto the blade should the wooden guides be? I imagine the distance between the teeth and the pegs is the most important factor. If anyone can point me in the right direction that would be grand and glorious. Thank you for helping!

Don't worry, I will end up posting many more photos/videos once the weather is frigid but for now I will just be posting trouble shooting photo's. 
 



 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Online Jeff

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2018, 11:38:33 AM »
Guidepins should just clear your shanks.
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Online CCCLLC

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2018, 11:42:53 AM »
Exactly like Jeff has said. Just under shanks at first available smooth surface. Control that cutting edge as close as possible.

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2018, 12:17:03 PM »
Awesome! Thank you Jeff and CCCLLC for the help!
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline dgdrls

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2018, 07:16:35 PM »
Jemmy,  good evening.

Just a though, you're gonna want to know what the arbor RPM is geared at.
The saw speed (surface feet per minute) is going to change with the smaller saw
 and will probably not saw as well as it could unless you pick up the arbor RPM speed.

Let us know how u do,

best
D


Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2018, 11:21:49 PM »
Ok, I was able to break the bolts that secured the guide pins, allowing me to move the pins to what I believe is the correct position for the new 48" blade. I have posted updated photos of the updated positioning. If you all could tell me what else needs to be address with the pins that would be great! My primary concern now is how plum the pins are and whether or not the distance (currently about 1/8" on each side), if there is even suppose to be any, between the pins and blade are appropriate. And despite these photos, I got the cable system hooked up and taught. So there is only two things left before testing the saw. These pins and I have a leak in the radiator :( ... But this has been two years in the making so I am pretty ecstatic, just need to figure these couple of issues. In regards to rim speed, I really have no idea how to calculate it. The power source is a 3-71 Detroit diesel with a standard transmission. The directions for cutting from the previous owner was "slam it into 2nd and bring it up until you hear the Detroit hum" hahaha, so not the most scientific fashion of distinguishing feed rates, rim speed etc. Any ideas on how to approach?  


 



 

 

Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #6 on: October 18, 2018, 05:16:44 AM »
Things may change with the distance on your guides when you start things up.  I always adjusted my pins on a running saw, but I wouldn't suggest that to someone without a bunch of experience around a running saw.  I'd loosen the pins up to see how the saw stands when its running.  Then shut it off and adjust until you get to where you can see daylight around the guides.  It may take a little bit of playing around with them to get them right.  

Get a digital tach to check your RPM.  They aren't very expensive.  There as some that are contact type.  Those you hold on the center of the shaft.  Others are non contact and are checked with a laser on a piece of reflective tape.  No need to get close to the spinning shafts.  Both will fit your needs.  The laser type are about $10 on Ebay.

Most mills of that era ran about 540 RPM.  When I was running diesels, they had a tach on them, and the throttle was set that it ran at a certain RPM.  These were industrial Detroits and didn't have a transmission.  
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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2018, 07:58:21 AM »
If you bring the engine speed up from idle, with the blade spinning, and at say half speed the saw starts to wobble, and slowly keep increasing speed until the saw runs flat, that is the hammered speed.    While sawing you cannot go below this speed. If you had the tach  described above, you could know this rpm when making this test.    What make is this sawmill?

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2018, 09:20:47 PM »
Alrighty, well I will be doing some shopping on ebay for a tachometer. And in terms of RPMs is there such a thing as too fast? Obviously there is too fast for the Detroit. But once you exceed the hammered speed does the outside pin have the responsibility of keeping the blade from bowing too far outward? This mill is an American Mill that has been set on a 6" H beam frame. 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2018, 06:35:25 AM »
Guide pins is sort of a misnomer.  They don't really guide the saw, but protect it from knot dodge and other sorts of things when the cut goes off line.  

The last mill I ran, I was running 700 RPM.  That's what the mill was set up for, and that's what the saws were hammered for.  If you run too fast, your saw just won't perform very well.  Fast running saws are harder for maintenance.  Your teeth have to be in good shape.  The angle has to be good and there can't be any corners off on the teeth.  The saw collars also have to be in good shape.  There isn't that much of an advantage on an older mill to run that fast.  Most of them ran around 540 RPM.  

If you go too fast for what the saw has been hammered, it will bow out, which will also effect your lead, especially if you are holding it back with the guide pins.  You'll also get heat in the rim, and that will twist the saw.  You'll also be burning up your guide pins.  
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Offline Gearbox

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2018, 09:03:59 PM »
I like to run my saws about 25 RPM over the stand up speed . the way I do it is back your guides off so you have a 1/8 on the log side . increase the speed as you will hear the saw banging the guides . keep increasing speed until the banging stops.  
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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2018, 09:04:24 AM »
I like to run my saws about 25 RPM over the stand up speed . the way I do it is back your guides off so you have a 1/8 on the log side . increase the speed as you will hear the saw banging the guides . keep increasing speed until the banging stops.  
Me too, or even 50 rpm over depending on how the governor takes ahold.

Offline DMcCoy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2018, 10:18:15 AM »
Just a fwiw.  Hopefully the rusty blade in the picture is your old blade.  I have those same bits and shanks and they are no longer available. 

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2018, 12:27:56 PM »
I remember my saw doc saying that you can go +/- 25 RPM from how the saw was hammered without too many problems.  I couldn't do that at the higher RPM that I ran.  
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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2018, 09:09:12 PM »
Just a fwiw.  Hopefully the rusty blade in the picture is your old blade.  I have those same bits and shanks and they are no longer available.
Are they style 3 or something larger?

Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #15 on: October 22, 2018, 12:39:15 AM »
Yep, that's my old blade, I got a nice 56" blade being stored inside that will act as my primary soon, just want to get through the learning curve on this one, I ordered a laser RPM tachometer and chrome paint. I'm going to get the radiator problem hashed out tomorrow hopefully, and will be making my couple of passes. The capable system is hooked up, the blade is pretty well secured, just need to tidy a few things up with black tape, zip ties, a few minutes with the cut off wheel, and 1 run to TSC or Home depot and I'll have my first couple of boards. Pretty exciting to be this close, practically been two years since I dropped the down payment for this mill. Got what seems like an eternally long knock out list of knick-nacky projects, after the already mentioned problems are solved (radiator, etc) Ive got to set up the throttle, but Im, thinking I will be able to rig something for the mean time hehe. I've got practically all day tomorrow to work on it, so I should have things tidied up and ready for testing by tomorrow night, all things going exactly to plan and what not..... I will keep you all up to date, I'm probably going to start a separate thread for this build, I have hours and hours of video that I took of the extraction of the mill, building of the form, and what not, I have practically the entire project captured on my go pro, just need to condense it. These are my current problems though, so I don't see this thread disappearing anytime soon. Thank you all for the help so far and for the future help and interest. These past two years have been quite a trip, and I know things are just beginning. Got practically an endless amount of knowledge to acquire, I'm just a young buck trying to cut some great lumber!
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #16 on: October 22, 2018, 05:50:30 AM »
Mounting the blade.  Put the saw on the arbor, and pull back on the shear pins before tightening.  If you don't, you might snap your shear pins on the first cut.  Snapping shear pins is nasty.  Also, when you tighten, you can overtighten and smash your collars.  The way I tightened up the nut was to snug it up with the wrench, then kick the end of the wrench 3-4 times.  That's tight enough.  
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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #17 on: October 22, 2018, 04:14:25 PM »
Well, I have the guide pins off of the blade by 1/8th inch and secured well. In terms of the shear pins, I put the blade on and how I thought it went together then tightened down the nut with a 36" pipe wrench no kicking, just the force of 250lbs giving a few pulls (not me my big friend), there were two pins that were inserted into the collar, then were inserted into the mill through the blade before the tightening of the nut.  I hope this makes sense, I've had the saw up to rpms and everything seemed to be good in terms of the the securing of the blade. I really did not understand your explanation of what to do with the shear pins, and from what you described as the consequence I don't fancy having my shear pins break on my first cut. If you or someone could put it into other terms or explain differently this technique that would be grand and glorious. 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #18 on: October 22, 2018, 07:07:25 PM »
I was describing what to do when you have the shear pins and collar on the saw.  You pull back on the saw while you snug up the nut.  Chances are you won't shear the pins.  But, it has been know to happen.
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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #19 on: October 22, 2018, 07:42:46 PM »
Those pins are a big deal. What Ron is telling you is that the saw pin holes must be touching the pins in the direction of force when the saw is in the log. They are not shear pins, they are drive pins. They do not have to fit tight and should be smooth. The saw needs to be able to 'oil can' in the collars so dents in the pins are not good.  Never stall or jam the saw in the log as this can dent the pins or worse and over tighten the nut and damage the collars and even bend the threaded end.  When learning to saw there is a lot to keep tract of.  It took me a long time to teach myself to saw and many years to trouble shoot well enough that I can saw every day.

Offline bandmiller2

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #20 on: October 22, 2018, 08:30:52 PM »
Jemmy, your doing the right thing going slow and asking questions. Being a sawyer on a circular mill is like learning to ride a bicycle, you just have to do it, a toss or two are to be expected. It seems strange that such large heavy machinery requires such exact adjustment. Really check your lead and be sure no slivers of wood or bark rub the saw plate and heat it. Learn to file straight, best to copy the profile of a new bit. I'm sure their is science involved but handset mill are more of a seat of your pants operation that will become second nature with practice. Frank C.
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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2018, 09:28:13 PM »
SUCCESS! hahaha, got everything set up and went for it. The pins seemed to be in good condition and went into the saw in a somewhat loose fashion but once the nut was spun on tightened there seemed to be a solid connection. First cut is a very little piece that I'm going to put on a shelf, didnt figure out the radiator yet, just kept filling it with water then drained it at the end of the day. Gonna get some fittings tomorrow to hopefully solve the issue. Got the chrome spray paint for the PTO to use in conjunction with the laser tachometer, and a game plan for the throttle, thank you all for the help! Got a lot of tweaking, and little punch list things to do/monitor, feels like I just met my first child haha, hes got a little attitude, but seems to be working pretty good. 






 

 
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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #22 on: November 30, 2018, 09:46:11 PM »
OKKKK, so I was attempting to cut up some 4x6s for the track extensions for the sawmill and lost some teeth. When I was cutting my RPMs dropped a few times, I didn't stall the motor, but it did throw the blade into a wobble. After a couple of cuts I noticed I was missing teeth, so I shut the mill down to inspect. What I saw was 2 teeth and their inserts entirely missing and 1 tooth was sheared off  :'( ... to make matters worse I noticed was what looked like hair line fractures in the blade that start in the center and stretch outward like sun-rays (picture below). Now when I bought this mill, the previous owner was not using this blade, something should have triggered my brain then. I have a 56" blade that I believe is in good condition. My question is, did I do this to this blade by having the RPMs drop? Or were these cracks probably there before I started cutting, and I couldn't see them until I started cutting and the cracks re-surfaced. If I did do this to my blade, I do not wish to do the same thing to the 56" blade. And on a separate note, do you NEED the guide pins to run the saw? Or are they there just to insure a straight cut through variable conditions? (like knots and what not) I only cut about 30 bdft before these issues arose. 

 
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Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2018, 11:33:01 AM »
Looks to me like you cleaned the surface rust off the saw when you made a few passes.  Judging from the cracks, I am surprised it stood at all.  There is rust in the cracks, so, it isn't something that you did.  

As for missing teeth, I've done that on numerous occasions.  There were holes in the roof to prove it.  It comes from the shanks being too loose in the sockets.  Sockets can get stretched over time.  You would need an oversized shank to correct it, or you could stretch it by peening the inside of the shank.  I have also tapped on the shoulder of the saw to put it back into place as a fix.  

Do you need guide pins?   You won't be able to control your saw and you will saw into something that will ruin your saw, like a headblock or the like.  Those will rip shoulders off the saw.  There's a lot of things that can pull your saw off line.  They include dull teeth, a chipped tooth, the grain of the log, knots, nails, insulators and a multitude of other things.  Your saw will get hot when it goes off line, and possibly bend.  Then you'll need to get it hammered.  

If nothing else, look at guide pins as an insurance policy.  
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Offline moodnacreek

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2018, 06:18:26 PM »
If everything was perfect that cracked saw wouldn't clean up unless you sawed watery wood but in this case it showed you what was there. That saw is scrap. Somebody ran that saw to destruction.

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2018, 08:58:03 PM »
Please don't run that saw anymore. Hang it on a wall somewhere or paint a sign on it.
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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2018, 01:28:17 AM »
Well I am very happy I shut things down when I did... When I saw those cracks I knew something was very wrong, and then I thought to myself, "I bet this thing is structurally unsound and might shred apart" So I gave a shout out to my guardian angel for not letting me die quite yet. Ive already got plans for this saw, it should make for a great sign out front!!!! Im still kinda quaking in my boots about that saw. I wasnt as concerned about the missing teeth, i figured that would happen on occasion. Those cracks are another deal though. I figure that saw is a pretty much a bomb waiting to go off... 
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2018, 01:34:28 AM »
And that makes sense for the guide pins... I didnt really think about the saw getting pulled to the point of ruining or hitting the cart, but I see how it could easily do that! Gosh now that Im sawing I understand why people like bandsaws so much...  
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #28 on: December 03, 2018, 06:53:41 AM »
A very nice thread!!
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Offline Don P

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #29 on: December 03, 2018, 07:19:25 AM »
I've skimmed the carriage and the dogs, neither of which you ever want to get into so yes do keep your eyes open and thinking cap on at all times. It is not good to ever throw shanks but it will happen occasionally. Take your proposed blade to a sawdoc to be checked and tensioned, it sounds like the previous owner ran his gear hard. One thing to keep in mind is most, but certainly not all stuff thrown by the blade travels in the plane of the blade. Make a point of not being in that line, front or rear, any more than you have to be. I line up, look down that line if needed and then step back to pull the stick.

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #30 on: December 03, 2018, 08:12:03 AM »
It looks like your saw collar is undersized, as well. Make sure it is the same diameter as the back one.

Greg
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Offline DMcCoy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #31 on: December 03, 2018, 08:25:38 AM »
JC!  That blade gives me the shivers. 

Your 56" saw- those look like 5/16" 4 1/2 8/9 bits.  I would check for stamp marks on your shanks and see if they are still available before spending too much on getting your saw reconditioned.

Yes keep your head out of the saw plane of rotation.  I have both circle mill and bandsaw.  The circle mill will flat out saw faster but has more waste.  It also has the sound and scratch marks you just can't beat.

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #32 on: December 03, 2018, 09:28:45 AM »
I cant imagine ever sawing without guide pins. Even with them, things can get hairy.

Duck and run! A circle sawyer initiation. in Sawmills and Milling

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Offline jemmy

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2018, 05:37:34 PM »
Jeff, that is some scary stuff. Where can I go to have my blade looked at? I don't think my local fab shop will really know what to do :) . I am in the Toledo area, I'm not apposed to driving a great deal to have quality work done. I have a different "good" blade that I should take and have looked at, I assume, before sawing with it, especially after this fiasco.  Btw Jeff the quote on your profile couldn't be more applicable in this thread  ;)
Plan for the worst, hope for the best, and take what comes with a grin. - Grandpa Chuck

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Re: 1950's Circle Mill Trouble Shooting
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2018, 05:17:09 AM »
Get in touch with one of the local circle mills and find out who they have hammer their saws.  In our area, we had a local saw shop stop by once a month.  They sold mill supplies like files, teeth, etc, and they would pick up saws for hammering.  They would deliver in the next month.  But, if I needed something done right away, I could take the saw to their shop and wait on it.  If you get to talk to a saw doc, you'll learn quite a bit.
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xx
glow plug trouble shooting???

Started by shinnlinger on General Board

7 Replies
7265 Views
Last post November 18, 2010, 06:14:25 AM
by StorminN
xx
Trouble shooting a Grand Cherokee

Started by Jeff on General Board

45 Replies
3795 Views
Last post October 19, 2012, 09:46:50 PM
by beenthere
question
Help trouble-shooting my 2000 Ford Ranger please

Started by RynSmith on General Board

14 Replies
1406 Views
Last post May 26, 2013, 07:52:07 PM
by millwright
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Trouble with Alaskan Mill, especially Mini Mill

Started by danf26 on Sawmills and Milling

25 Replies
19936 Views
Last post April 01, 2011, 08:31:45 PM
by danf26
 


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