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Author Topic: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?  (Read 2885 times)

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Offline OlJarhead

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #40 on: September 13, 2018, 11:35:32 PM »
I have a 576XP and sadly had to have it completely rebuilt under warranty.  It was running lean and no amount of adjusting (by the local Husky repair folks) would stop it from burning up.  Sent it off and got it back running nicely.  It's still going well but I'm not too keen on pushing it.
Sorry to hear that, very disappointing to spend ones cash and have to go through
such a repair, I know a lot of people who had melt downs and they were messed
about something chronic, shop blaming them and refusing to sort the saws, pleased
you at least got sorted, I am stumped though that this sort of thing is still happening
with the time they have had to fine tune this system, will it ever be fixed or are they
nursing it along until the come out with fuel injection systems, hard to beat an ordinary
carb, they could have been smart enough to enable the fitting of a normal carb and just
let the auto-tune handle the spark timing, I for one would be swapping in a carb if this was
the case, wonder who is really to blame for lumbering us with this epa rubbish, did the epa
push the manufacturers, did the manufacturers push the epa, or are they in together so we
have to keep replacing our machines thus making someone else rich.
Mine isn't an autotune but they have made it so you cannot richen up the saw enough.  It was running lean and I kept getting the run around from the local 'approved' repair shop.  Sent the saw back to the original retailer and they took care of me.  I've not pushed the saw yet but I've run it enough to 'break it in' I believe.  Plan to run it harder soon though and see what happens.
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Offline John Mc

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #41 on: September 14, 2018, 07:57:38 AM »
a guide will dull the chain as you slide it along , yes I know for most people that still pretty sharp but Im not most people and cannot stand how a chain cuts after using a guide or a new chain out of the box , even stihl 33rs does not cut and has to be filed when brand new
You lost me there. How does this guide dull a chain? It makes absolutely no contact with the cutting surfaces.



I tend to use the one shown below (though I have and do use both styles). I can understand the concern over dulling the chain, since it rests on top of the cutting tooth during use. However, even then, it's just about parallel to the top plate. If you are putting the kind of down pressure on the guide that would deform the cutting edge of the top plate, you are most likely not using it correctly. The sharpening stone I use to sharpen knives is at a steeper angle to the blade, and uses similar (or greater) pressure, but does not dull the knife.


Note: I'm not saying that you don't get better-performing chains by hand sharpening, Ed. Lord knows, you've done a lot more of this than I have. I'm just questioning if that is because the guides somehow dull the chain, or if you have developed a technique that results in a better or more aggressive cutting profile.

I doubt the guides give the best results for all uses. For instance, all of the roller guides I've found are set up to guide you to a 30˚ angle. For me, that's OK for semi-chisel chain, but I prefer a 25˚ angle for full chisel chain. (25˚ also happens to be what the manufacturer recommends. Maybe I'd find an angle or a depth I like better if I played around with it enough. I just haven't taken the time to experiment.)

To the OP: sorry for the topic drift. I hope at least some of the discussion is of interest.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline outinthewood

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #42 on: September 14, 2018, 07:18:33 PM »
As already said, a little devation from the original question but ! The Husqvarna guide shown ( the blue one) will not cause any drag across the tooth but will wear on the rollers and end up giving to much of a "hook" on the cutter. If you hold the solid "stihl" or "oregon" metal type guide as intended i.e pressure to the rear of the tooth then no problem but if you don't do that then yes you are dragging the frame across the cutter edge ! I said in an other post that I cut a lot of windblown timber and on the sale I've just finished yesterday I was sharpening 6/7 times on a 400mt run, I'm in front of a harvester so it's all about time so I freehand and about every 4 times use a guide or with the best will in the world you just go to far into the back of the cutter and too much hook ! I'm well aware of Mr EHP rep and was of the same view but the clue is in the name "guide" I find I get a good bit longer out of a chain doing this. 


Offline HolmenTree

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #43 on: September 14, 2018, 08:52:13 PM »
Ed is right the file holder guide does dull a cutting edge.
The trouble is the rib in the middle where the middle of the file rests on snags the cutting edge on both ends of the rib.
Here is a brand new Oregon file holder guide that I marked the underside of the rib with a black felt marker.
With just a few strokes of the file on the cutter both ends of the rib has a shiny wear mark on them from the cutting edge.


 

Also notice the wear marks on the chrome layer on top of the cutter. This is just from 2 strokes from the hardened steel guide.
Not good for the longevity of the chrome layer throughout the life of the chain.

Another trouble with any kind of guide is you can't support the cutter you're filing with your free hand.
I like to get a solid grip of the cutter I'm filing, which makes filing accuracy such much easier.
Using a guide is like trying to filet a fish while it's still flopping around :D
Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Online Skeans1

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #44 on: September 14, 2018, 09:46:44 PM »
Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?

Offline John Mc

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #45 on: September 14, 2018, 09:56:49 PM »
Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?
Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Online Skeans1

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #46 on: September 14, 2018, 10:01:36 PM »
Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?
Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).
Why dont you guys west of the Rockies run square?

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #47 on: September 14, 2018, 10:30:02 PM »
Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?
Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).
Why dont you guys west of the Rockies run square?
Another history lesson Skeans. :P
Square ground chisel bit chain and old growth fir, cedar and redwood go together like bread and butter.
Starting about 60 years ago handfallers in that timber needed a slick cutting chain to pull those big 1/2" chisel chains (some bigger in 9/16" 5/8") with long bars in softwood that will plug up a round filed chain.
Making stumps 4 ft off the ground and walking on the tree to limb it poses alot less  danger dulling those keen edges.
Outside of the PNW center of the universe loggers have perfected felling ,limbing, topping and bucking smaller timber at ground level. 
We can whip out the file and touch up a 20" chain in just a few minutes and go back at it..... and him and his skidder operator partner will have 60 cords of 50 ft tree length in the landing by the end of the day.
Now how many fallers on the west coastal areas touch up or can hand file a badly dull chain at the stump today?
Maybe fumbling changing out bench ground chains?
You ever see a good butcher or chef who can't sharpen his tools right on the job?

Making a living with a saw since age 16.

Online Skeans1

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #48 on: September 14, 2018, 10:38:20 PM »
Just curious I keep seeing you guys put chisel and all I see is round ground teeth, what happened to square was chisel and round was semi?
Chisel vs semi-chisel has to do with how the side plate meets the top plate: chisel has a squared-off corner while semi chisel has a radius or chamfer where they meet. How you grind it is not what makes it chisel or not. You can have round-ground chisel chain or square ground chisel chain. Semi-chisel is always round-ground (or at least that's all I've ever seen - I'm not sure what the point would be in square-grinding a semi-chisel chain).
Why dont you guys west of the Rockies run square?
Another history lesson Skeans. :P
Square ground chisel bit chain and old growth fir, cedar and redwood go together like bread and butter.
Starting about 60 years ago handfallers in that timber needed a slick cutting chain to pull those big 1/2" chisel chains (some bigger in 9/16" 5/8") with long bars in softwood that will plug up a round filed chain.
Making stumps 4 ft off the ground and walking on the tree to limb it poses alot less  danger dulling those keen edges.
Outside of the PNW center of the universe loggers have perfected felling ,limbing, topping and bucking smaller timber at ground level.
We can whip out the file and touch up a 20" chain in just a few minutes and go back at it..... and him and his skidder operator partner will have 60 cords of 50 ft tree length in the landing by the end of the day.
Now how many fallers on the west coastal areas touch up or can hand file a badly dull chain at the stump today?
Maybe fumbling changing out bench ground chains?
You ever see a good butcher or chef who can't sharpen his tools right on the job?
Theres still a few of us that can file both to get through a day, even so how many cord is a 200 say 3.5 on the stump fir? Most of us swap out the chains because its more productive when you can only hand cut for six hours a day. These same chains do really well in hardwoods as well such as alder, maple, and oak. Last time I was on a job that was hand fell all the stumps were ground level faces put in on the low side undercut first for as low as possible, heck most of the back cuts were just a small step.

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #49 on: September 14, 2018, 11:03:11 PM »
Logging where I'm at on level ground with line or grapple skidders and where  you're at  are apples and oranges in total differences.

Back in the 1960's when us farmers here thought we were good loggers, we didn't know what real production was until the Frenchmen from Quebec and the Finlanders showed up, they doubled our production and we learned real quick.

Best production here in limbed 55 ft topped at 3.5 "spruce and iack pine treelength with butts at average 12"- 16" diameter piled at the landing for 2 guys is 60 cord average a day . 
Thats alot of trees and we worked 7 to 8 hrs 5 days a week.

And I can guarantee you any of the fallers in our camps can file a round filed 72LG or 33 RS  chain at the stump and make it cut faster in a 16" log then most of your guys trying to do the same with a square file.

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Offline HolmenTree

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2018, 11:08:31 PM »
Here's some food for thought from 1965.
 

 

 

 

  
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Offline John Mc

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #51 on: September 15, 2018, 07:26:47 AM »
I don't use square ground chain because while it may cut faster when freshly sharpened, it also dulls faster. I'm cutting almost all hardwoods, low to the ground and not always in the cleanest of conditions (though not dirty enough to warrant using a semi-chisel chain, IMO). Round-ground - or in my case, round filed - chisel chains seem to match my needs well.

Also, I can hand-file round filed chain and get good results. I've never tried to do that on square-ground chain, but I understand it is more difficult. I don't think I'd have a prayer of doing it right if I didn't have my reading glasses with me, but I can still seem to get good results without my glasses on round ground chain (though it is easier if I have my glasses on).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline John Mc

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #52 on: September 15, 2018, 07:52:14 AM »
Ed is right the file holder guide does dull a cutting edge.
The trouble is the rib in the middle where the middle of the file rests on snags the cutting edge on both ends of the rib.
Here is a brand new Oregon file holder guide that I marked the underside of the rib with a black felt marker.
With just a few strokes of the file on the cutter both ends of the rib has a shiny wear mark on them from the cutting edge.

(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
I stand corrected. I forgot all about that little rib. Mine does show a slight mark. I'll have to sharpen with out that guide and compare a before and after running the guide over it. I'll be interested how much it deforms the tooth. I know if my file is getting dull, I do tend to use more pressure (I know... replace the file, but I don't always have a spare with me in the woods.)
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #53 on: September 15, 2018, 08:11:54 AM »
John, you ask "I'll be interested how much the rib deforms the tooth?"

Well think of rubbing the edge of your sharpest pocket knife on that hardened steel rib. :)
Or better yet a razor sharp wood chisel.
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Offline ehp

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #54 on: September 15, 2018, 09:44:03 AM »
Its just me but I'm so picky even on my race chains I cut them free hand and NEVER lay a racker depth gauge on the tooth .

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #55 on: September 15, 2018, 11:14:10 AM »
Same here.
Back in the '80s I used to use a hard plastic raker gauge with a steel slotted plate in the center to file on.

The plastic body rested on the depth gauge and top of the cutting edge so no worries about hurting the cutting edge.
Lost it years ago, couldn't find another since. Made in Australia.

I've been free hand filing for so long now I just swipe the depth gauges a certain way with the flat file and don't bother checking it.
Long as my eyes hold out I"ll be good to go for a bit longer. :)
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Offline John Mc

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #56 on: September 15, 2018, 01:49:47 PM »
John, you ask "I'll be interested how much the rib deforms the tooth?"

Well think of rubbing the edge of your sharpest pocket knife on that hardened steel rib. :)
Or better yet a razor sharp wood chisel.
I have been thinking about that. I have not pulled out my gauge to actually check the angle, but if it's just a few degrees, it may not be deforming it much at all. Depending on the angle, it could be like "steeling" a knife after sharpening. Also, at least the corner would be somewhat protected if you are filing out toward the point, rather than back into it.

I'm also thinking several light swipes with the guide sliding along it is doing a whole lot less to the edge than even just a few cuts in a hard oak log.
BTW, I hope I'm not coming across as argumentative or disrespectful on this point. I recognize that both of you have a whole lot more experience at this than I do. I also have no interest in competing in chainsaw racing. I just enjoy thinking about this sort of thing when I have some "down time", and it's great to have people like you to run my thoughts by.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline outinthewood

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2018, 07:07:57 PM »
This has taken a turn down a side street well away from the original question ! As always a nice bit of background from Mr H. I first started sawing at the age of 14 on the farm and was introduced to a common guide made of alloy which was very simple and i'm sure not that accurate but it worked and as I mentioned it is only a guide ... I have a modern copy of that alloy guide which is now made of "white metal" or "pot metal" if you like so no danger of any damage to the plating on the cutter , however, I wil go out tmr and do a look but I don't remember catching the cutting edge with a guide to the extreme that I dulled the cutter ? Now a race chain or a square ground chain is a horse of another colour and in that vein of course a chain out of a box will be better after being re-filed since it has rubbed against it's self in the box ! I did try Square chain and can hand file it ok but just found it was to fine for my conditions. Chains are just like saws it's how "you" like them and get on with them ...Now at 55yrs old I still try anything to make my working day better and more productive. 

Offline HolmenTree

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #58 on: September 15, 2018, 09:11:52 PM »
All is good guys :) 
Yes we got a little side tracked but it did all start when OP  gpbrant  settled for the Redmax, thanked everyone and signed off. I myself got a bit carried away....all or nothing :-[

My apologies to everyone.
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Offline John Mc

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Re: which of these 60-75cc saws would you buy?
« Reply #59 on: September 15, 2018, 09:16:06 PM »
All is good guys :)
Yes we got a little side tracked but it did all start when OP  gpbrant  settled for the Redmax, thanked everyone and signed off. I myself got a bit carried away....all or nothing :-[

My apologies to everyone.
No need to apologize, IMO. Sometimes the side tracks are as interesting as the original discussion.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow


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