Cutting hung up heavy leaning trees

[Klunker]

 

 

We had some wind/tornado damage in our woods.
Lots of blown over trees and hung up trees.
Some trees are almost parallel with the ground and lots of them are up to 45 degree angle to the ground. The roots have pulled up with them leaving a big ball of soil.
Plan on turning some of the damaged trees into lumber.
Lots of heavy leaners/hung up trees.

This is one of the worse. A double tree that is hung up on a bunch of still standing trees.

Any words of wisdom on how to cut this type of tree.
I can't cut the tree/trees that it is hung up on.

Thanks in advance.

[mike_belben]

What do you have for equipment and whats your skill level?  What have you got for saws?

[Klunker]

What do you have for equipment and whats your skill level?  What have you got for saws?

I have a 30hp tractor with a grapple.
Skill level, I'm not a "professional", but I'm also not a newbie.
I certainly know this is a very dangerous situation.
Saws, largest I have is a Husky 562xp, 20" bar.
My first concern is if the top of the trunk is in compression or tension.
Hard to tell at times if the crown is holding it up or the remain roots are.

[mike_belben]

This thread had a lot of good info recently.  

Blow down salvage in Forestry and Logging

I can summarize most of my contribution by saying the unexpected is what causes injury and at times a saw should be used less for severing and more as an exploratory tool to predetermine the tree's condition by whittling gills or wedges out so internak tensions and compressions can relax and dissipate before severing.

Be careful and have a partner who can get you out or call for help. Wear your gear and think it thru, no 2nd chances.

If your tractor grapple can clamp a piece of log, use it like a joust to bust stuff you have pre-cut.  

[lxskllr]

I don't know much about anything, but I like Mike's advice to make test cuts to relieve tension. I'd clean up the immediate area so it's virtually spotless(no tripping, plenty of room for escape), and then work on the problem trees. Light cuts, and go slow while watching everything carefully. Once it's free enough, you can then start pulling with machines.

[Hilltop366]

An online resource may help.

https://woodlot.novascotia.ca/content/lesson-seven-bucking.



If unsure I do a bit of "nibbling" to try and see what is going on then proceed to jam my saw.

[John Mc]

If unsure I do a bit of "nibbling" to try and see what is going on then proceed to jam my saw.

 

Yes, exactly! It's important to do some exploratory work first so you can be sure that final cut will thoroughly jam your saw.

[mike_belben]

 

If theres no kerf theres nothing to get jammed between.  Another issue the beaver has solved over the ages.  

Translation:  when a kerf starts getting deep, make another right next to it that intersects the first.  Pie slices will give you jam free clearance to whittle all day.  If it starts closing, more pie.  More pie cant be wrong.

[Southside logger]

More pie cant be wrong

[mike_belben]

 

I rest my case.

[Skeans1]

One thing with blow down is run a long bar on a big saw you can use a face as mike is saying, an open would be a choice or a humboldt face. Best advice when cutting timber I’ve ever gotten was if you have to ask how don’t do it, you need a someone with the knowledge to learn from.

[Southside logger]

Pie and jam in a thread about blow downs - it always goes to food around here.  

[mills]

Hard to tell from this picture, so don't take this as gospel. 
I'm guessing that the bottom tree is hung tight at the top, and the top tree is holding it in place at the bottom. The top tree may or may not be supported well at the top, but looks like the root ball is going to be pulling back to the hole. I'd bore cut the bottom tree first starting at the center and working both ways until the tree tells you which way it wants to go. I'd then cut the top in the same manner with the expectation that root ball will put more pressure on the trunk than the top will. 
I will now go back to my corner and await the other responses. A lot of you boys have a lot more experience cutting blow downs as I do, so nail away. Got to have fun with it.
   

[John Mc]

It's going to take a lot more than a single picture of part of the trees for me to comment with much that will be of any help on storm damaged trees. Storm damage clean up is one of the more dangerous aspects of work in the woods. If you want to tackle this yourself, and do not have a lot of experience at this, I'd suggest finding a friend to walk you through things and make suggestions.

[Southside logger]

Not knowing whats around and like John said - it would really take a lot more overview to assess the situation.  Is there any way to get a big skidder in there to hook a winch to these and either pull them out by the root ball, stand one back up, or even pull it down the rest of the way?  If not can you get a big dozer or excavator in there to work from the rootball side and get the stress out so it comes down?  

There are no really GOOD options that involve being on the ground with a saw in a mess like that - at least not to start, maybe once you have some place for stuff to go, but at first there are a lot of unknowns, not saying it can't be done, but in the safety of a cab perhaps it can be done with less risk of bodily injury.  

Many years back, I was a teenager, I watched a homeowner sawing away at a storm felled tree - it was a big one and honestly he did not belong working on it.  Well, he got the top off just as the main trunk vaulted him into the air as the rootball pulled it back up, he must have gone 15 or more feet straight up and just as far horizontally, I will never forget the noise he made when he hit the ground, I also remember that it took a very long time for the ambulance to get there.  I never found out how bad he was hurt, but it was bad for sure.    

[mike_belben]

This may not go over well here and im not advocating it for anyone, but i walk up trunks like that and cut pieces off or set cables once or twice a year, 2, 3 , 4 trees stacked and tangled or propped into a pecker pole.  The last one i did was a bushel of bign's propped up  over some expensive headstones.  I walked up and whittled and winched it all apart.

Its hard to known whats going on inside a pinned tree in person, impossible to be certain through a photo.  The man with the saw has to be asking a lot of questions and considering a lot of scenarios and CANNOT BE PRESSED FOR TIME.  It takes as long as it takes and verifying your theory is important. Rushing it will cost you life and limb.   The risk doesnt end at pinch or stump stands.  You can be standing on a barberchair or under a log that rolls or kicks. Theres limb flings and hornets and rot and jammed together crotches, saw kickback, losing your balance and falling on a saw or into a limb pocket you cant get out of, getting a foot pinned. It all comes into play.  

I am self taught and always solo.  The good Lord probably got me this far, but being overly cautious probably makes the job easier on Him.  

[Tramp Bushler]

One thing with blow down is run a long bar on a big saw you can use a face as mike is saying, an open would be a choice or a humboldt face. Best advice when cutting timber I’ve ever gotten was if you have to ask how don’t do it, you need a someone with the knowledge to learn from.

 Blowdown is just flat Deadly. Fresh blowdown is the worst. Everything is loaded like a grizzly trap.
 You NEED a long enough bar so that your dogs never come close to touching wood. BECAUSE, you WILL GET HUNG UP !!!! No part of If you get hung. Just how soon after you start cutting and how many times.
 A 562 will pull a 28" bar. That's a short bar, but the longest small Husky mount.
 Perfectly straight cutting , razor sharp chains are necessary.
 
 Always start on the bottom tree. And if possible start at the top of the bottom tree And work your way to the butt.
 Sometimes I run 4 kerfs . more often I make 3 kerfs and run them all the way .  You need a spare bar of the same length and spare chains.
 
 Bucking Blowdown is really a job for a professional timber faller.
 Honest and true . Its just stupid dangerous.

[Skeans1]

One thing with blow down is run a long bar on a big saw you can use a face as mike is saying, an open would be a choice or a humboldt face. Best advice when cutting timber I’ve ever gotten was if you have to ask how don’t do it, you need a someone with the knowledge to learn from.

 Blowdown is just flat Deadly. Fresh blowdown is the worst. Everything is loaded like a grizzly trap.
 You NEED a long enough bar so that your dogs never come close to touching wood. BECAUSE, you WILL GET HUNG UP !!!! No part of If you get hung. Just how soon after you start cutting and how many times.
 A 562 will pull a 28" bar. That's a short bar, but the longest small Husky mount.
 Perfectly straight cutting , razor sharp chains are necessary.
 
 Always start on the bottom tree. And if possible start at the top of the bottom tree And work your way to the butt.
 Sometimes I run 4 kerfs . more often I make 3 kerfs and run them all the way .  You need a spare bar of the same length and spare chains.
 
 Bucking Blowdown is really a job for a professional timber faller.
 Honest and true . Its just stupid dangerous.

Yeah it is and many good fallers have been killed over the years bucking the stuff. Hey now take it easy on my little 562 it’ll run a 32 it’s a large mount husky.
On a side note how’s Tramp doing? How’s the truck been treating you these days?

[Peter Drouin]

Cut some on the bottom of the tree near the stump, Cut from the top till the tree falls off the stump, watch the stump. Pull out with a tractor.

[HolmenTree]

D8 dozer with forestry canopy and a feller buncher on tracks if there's alot more then in pic.

[DMcCoy]

I cut 1 tree like that years ago not a cluster.  I got lucky as the stump went back upright and the stem went flying past my head.  20" alder - so a lot of weight.  The speed at which the stump re-settled caught me by surprise to say the least.  I'm not a pro but not a newbie either.  I was a bit shaken by the experience and have never had to or wanted to cut another. 

I have cut many heavy leaners and you can't treat this like a normal hard leaner because the stump is loaded with heavy dirt and wants to go back upright.   The forces are not like normal standing trees. The different things that could go wrong is really high and you would be by necessity right in the middle of it..

If you can hire a track hoe large enough to dig that out of the ground and have him hold the root ball while the stems get cut would be safer.  Or a D8 as Holmen mentions.

That is a nasty and very dangerous situation.  Remember there is no amount of lumber is worth permanent injury-none.

[tawilson]

I have waited till winter on some uprooted trees just so the stump was froze in place. Probably wouldn't help on the ones in the pic though. 

[John Mc]

Cut some on the bottom of the tree near the stump, Cut from the top till the tree falls off the stump, watch the stump. Pull out with a tractor.

I do that a fair amount on blowdowns.

If I know the stump is likely to flip back up, sometimes I'll cut like I'm felling the stump up: notch the underside, bore cut to set the hinge. Open up the bore cut till I've got just the hinge and some holding wood on top left, then when I'm ready, clip that last bit of holding wood. It's a lot like what they teach in the Game of logging, except you are felling the stump up, instead of felling the tree down.
Sometimes you may need a thinner than normal hinge, since you don't have the whole weight of the tree helping you to get things moving (the hinge is often not as critical as when felling a tree, since you are generally not so worried about "steering" the tree in this situation). If I think there is a chance I've read it wrong, and the stump might not want to stand up, I'll tap in a wedge to keep the kerf from closing before I cut the holding wood.

[Tramp Bushler]

One thing with blow down is run a long bar on a big saw you can use a face as mike is saying, an open would be a choice or a humboldt face. Best advice when cutting timber I’ve ever gotten was if you have to ask how don’t do it, you need a someone with the knowledge to learn from.

 Blowdown is just flat Deadly. Fresh blowdown is the worst. Everything is loaded like a grizzly trap.
 You NEED a long enough bar so that your dogs never come close to touching wood. BECAUSE, you WILL GET HUNG UP !!!! No part of If you get hung. Just how soon after you start cutting and how many times.
 A 562 will pull a 28" bar. That's a short bar, but the longest small Husky mount.
 Perfectly straight cutting , razor sharp chains are necessary.
 
 Always start on the bottom tree. And if possible start at the top of the bottom tree And work your way to the butt.
 Sometimes I run 4 kerfs . more often I make 3 kerfs and run them all the way .  You need a spare bar of the same length and spare chains.
 
 Bucking Blowdown is really a job for a professional timber faller.
 Honest and true . Its just stupid dangerous.

Yeah it is and many good fallers have been killed over the years bucking the stuff. Hey now take it easy on my little 562 it’ll run a 32 it’s a large mount husky.
On a side note how’s Tramp doing? How’s the truck been treating you these days?

 Doing good. Knees have healed up fairly well. . Took a day off work to go cruise some timber. This area doesn't have much for big trees so I've gotta go poke around to see if I can find some that will make 2×12s. I need a couple hundred. From 16' down to 8 '
 How' be you been ?
 I thot the 562 was a small Husky mount. Showing my age I guess. I'm prolly thinking of the 262 or 362.

[John Mc]

I thot the 562 was a small Husky mount. Showing my age I guess. I'm prolly thinking of the 262 or 362.

 

The 560 is a small mount, but it's not available in the US. 562 is large mount

[Al_Smith]

Those things are "widow makers " on the ground .If you start at the root ball,it will barber chair and the root ball will try to sit back up .All that wood under tension is very dangerous . I like the D8 remedy .

[Southside logger]

a feller buncher on tracks if there's alot more then in pic

I would be concerned that a buncher would get the $10K disc wedged in some of those.  Then what do you do? 

[thecfarm]

Not to give out any false information.
I have cut quite of few leaners. BUT I let mine age on the stump for at least a couple years.   Or that what's one of my friends tell me. I have never had one try to stand up on me. But I have seen two pine "stumps" that are about 20 feet tall down the road.  Looks odd to see them like that. We had a bad wind storm and they fell across the road. I have a few that are "ageing" now. But these are on the ground. Lucky this time. But I do respect them leaners. With all the leaves-needles gone.I can see what is holding the tree up too. Or not holding it up.

[HolmenTree]

a feller buncher on tracks if there's alot more then in pic

I would be concerned that a buncher would get the $10K disc wedged in some of those.  Then what do you do?

Maybe I'm showing my age .....
1975 as a 17 year old kid I operated on day and night shifts a Drott 50 on tracks with a shear head and 2 other Drotts with auger heads.
I removed alot of blow down with both head styles and never broke one of them.
So I think your biggest concern would not be the head....but how good is your operator.

[HolmenTree]

Actually they were Drott 40 with 50 undercarriages.
Cut alot of wood with them .
We had Clarke 667 grapples skidding to roadside and 3 man Forano cut to length slashers .
Even had experimental chain flails delimbers mounted on 330 TJ skidders.
We had a couple  delimber shear heads for the Drotts but never used them. Too slow and broke up too much wood.

[Southside logger]

Oh - not saying it can't be done, but I don't want to be sitting there when you hear the disc suddenly stall out as the stump shifts and she is stuck.  $10K for a what - $50 tree? Not me.  

I prefer the idea of a heavy piece of iron working at it from the bottom end, dig, pull, or push, 40,000+ lbs of iron will give a guy a lot of protection.  

[Skeans1]

Oh - not saying it can't be done, but I don't want to be sitting there when you hear the disc suddenly stall out as the stump shifts and she is stuck.  $10K for a what - $50 tree? Not me.  

I prefer the idea of a heavy piece of iron working at it from the bottom end, dig, pull, or push, 40,000+ lbs of iron will give a guy a lot of protection.  

I think we’re all thinking different equipment, there’s hot saws which are so so for blow down its do able, intermediate discs which is about like the bar saw, bar saw, and the fun old shears. Another thing is the size of equipment you guys see vs the wet coast and Canada you take most of the buncher out here they’re 80k plus with 5 pumps one just for the saw, one for the boom, the swing, and two for each travel they don’t stall the disc.

[coalsmok]

All I’m going to say is be careful and watch what you’re doing and how the trees react. Most of my hurts and damages have been caused by cutting this kind of stuff. Last summer a blowdown mess on a fence came way to close for comfort on gutting me. Thank god the inertia/kickback brake worked as I landed on the saw when the tree threw me.

[Klunker]

Thanks for the responses.

My tractor has a grapple, But usually I wench the trees if something is stuck. I feel safer at a distance than right next a bunch of pickup sticks.

A couple of notes.

1) I have cut a few trees that had the trunk on the ground with a root ball or close to parallel to the ground with a root ball.

I mark of my logs sections starting at the bottom of the tree and work up. Then I start taking the top off so that I'm left with just the logs. Most of the trees have about 30-40 ft of logs in them. I can tell after the first or second log if the root ball is going to go back usually. If the tree starts to rise after each log is cut off, its going back. But sometimes it seems as if its a balancing act. Remove enough weight and it goes all at once. Not fast but within 1-2 seconds. Usually happens when I cut the 2nd to last log from the stump. So I'm careful when cutting these as I have seen it happen.

2) Red Oaks love to split. I have cut a few Red Oak leaners and they like to split. Just cutting in to test the waters and they split when the saw is in only 1-2 inches with a nice crack. Lots of tension in some of the leaners and Red Oak does not like tension. I usually notch the top and saw from underneath up as most of these fall down when cut.

3) I do some exploratory nibbling at times. In some cases it hard to tell if the tree wants to open up on the top or bottom as you cut. And the worse case is neither. I have had some that I ended up notching both top and bottom and working the saw in from both sides and there is no movement on the trunk.
Then you end up cutting the log all the way thru and it only moves together pinching the saw. Thats when I wench it apart from the side. A little tug is all it takes, once one of the sides get past the other they usually fall down.

Back to my trees in the picture. They are Bitternut Hickories, my experience is they love to split also.
The top tree is pretty much just held in place because of the root ball. There a couple of small branches on the top touching the tree that the lower one is well lodged against. I don't like the idea of cutting the top tree off as I'm concerned to where it goes when it falls down and hits the lower trunk. Will it fall towards me or away from me?

Cutting the bottom tree scares me cause of the weight on it, must be tremendous, I can see that splitting and the the whole mess coming down and rolling side ways cause the top tree looks like it has a relatively free path to the ground if the lower tree was not stopping it.

I guess that my biggest fear is there are 2 trees there and I'm worried that cutting one will make the 2nd one go someplace.

I have help coming with in a more experienced person. I'm going leave that beast till he is here.

[mike_belben]

Sounds like youll be fine.  Wear your gear and think safety.   Take pics so we can all armchair cowboy about your performance later. 

[olcowhand]

I started on this mess last weekend. My trail runs through a small ravine in this spot, and there are 6 Blowdowns and the Top of a 26" DBH Ash that broke off about twenty feet up. This pile is about 12'- 14' high, with the trees laying close to horizontal from the part of the slope they blew down from.
I employed Mike's trick once, walking out on the Maple to take the top of the largest Beech off the pile. The branches of the beech were wedged on both sides of the maple, and when I cut the one that was keeping the top hung up and the top rolled off, the whole pile lurched up about 5".
There has to be dozens of hidden spring poles in this mess, and I'm waiting for the first kick in the pills.
I have to get through this; it blocks access to over half of my wood.
Like C/L, if I'm still on this site, that means I haven't been finished off yet....

[mike_belben]

Yeah, thats a trainwreck alright.  Be safe.

[Southside logger]

Can you drop that ash so it does not come down on it's terms?  I have seen a lot of EAB killed ash break off just like you say, then break again lower.  

[Hilltop366]

If I can get at the root ball of a tipped over tree with my tractor I will pushed the tree towards the top or rolled it sideways to dislodge the rest of the roots and then push on the roots in the other direction to lower the top down off the trees it is hung up on.

[gspren]

I use my pole saw attachment pretty often on tangled messes, just start where the branches are 4-5" and work my way bigger. I like the extra distance and reaching over some to get at others is nice.

[Al_Smith]

I use my pole saw attachment pretty often on tangled messes, just start where the branches are 4-5" and work my way bigger. I like the extra distance and reaching over some to get at others is nice.

Actually last year I did the very same thing .Wind blown top of a huge bitternut ,around 24 inch where a straight line wind broke it 40 feet up in a 100 footer .The spar is still standing ,3.5 feet at the base .
After I "fence posted" the top until it was nearly straight up I broke it loose using snatch blocks with a 4 part line and a tractor .Could not  get to it with a bucket truck and it was too dangerous to climb .Around two cords of firewood with maybe 1500 bd ft of saw log still standing which may end up as firewood depending on what mood I'm in at the time .

[Tramp Bushler]

 If I was in your area I'de come by and get it all bucked down for you. As I'm not all I can do is hope and pray for you. If you can move the logs as you cut them off that will help.