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Author Topic: This is what happens when you don't thin.  (Read 2689 times)

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Offline Haleiwa

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This is what happens when you don't thin.
« on: September 27, 2018, 04:42:23 AM »
About 25 years ago, when sugar production collapsed in Hawaii, thousands of acres on Big Island w

 

 ere planted in eucalyptus trees.  The plan was to thin them for chips in five years, but the Japanese chip market fell apart, and they were left too thick.  Now they are not even worth chipping for the Chinese market.  Many of them are approaching 200 feet high and are essentially worthless.
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Offline Dan_Shade

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2018, 05:58:14 AM »
What is the diameter? 

I don't know anything about eucalyptus, but those sure are straight trees. 
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Offline Cedarman

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2018, 06:11:28 AM »
Can eucalyptus be pressure treated and used for fence posts?  Either round or sawed square.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2018, 07:41:14 AM »
I see at least 12 different Eucalyptus species listed for Hawaii. 
Depends on what species they are; what the potential use or not may be.
Eucalyptus sideroxylon is one that might be near the top of a search list.
 https://www.woodsolutions.com.au/wood-species/ironbark-red

Some species of Eucalytpus have been treated cca, creosote etc. Some post users looking for naturally durable posts now even if they are untreated and don't last as long - untreated might be burnt or composted where as toxic chemically treated posts can cause problems/ expense.

Offline tacks Y

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2018, 07:57:12 AM »
I don't want to pith in any ones pool but the look closer to 100 feet.

Offline petefrom bearswamp

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2018, 08:02:44 AM »
Dont know about Hawaii but utility poles here are typically 35 45 feet length and 6 ft or so in the ground.
Using a max of 40 plus above grd I figure 65 70 ft tall max.
Looks like a lot of biomass to me.
But not knowing markets there I may be full of bull tookie
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Online Southside logger

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2018, 08:18:06 AM »
Looks like a lot of straight and clear lumber there. Tight rings? Is the stuff tough enough for flooring?
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Offline Wudman

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2018, 09:16:42 AM »
The problem with the Hawaiian Islands is lack of processing facilities.  We acquired some dirt there (old sugar plantation) in a larger global acquisition, and promptly sold it due to lack of markets.  If you factor in $150 / ton freight for export, there isn't a lot of financial incentive to work in that market.

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Offline Haleiwa

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« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2018, 09:53:05 AM »
These are not robusta, although I don't know which species they are.  This particular species is a coarse, open grain that is mediocre lumber at best.  It is so wet that cut logs drip water.  As posts or poles the lifespan untreated is measured in months, not years.  This is a crop intended for fuel wood, and the cost of harvesting and shipping the toothpicks is more than the market will bear.  This location is around 100 feet tall.  The tallest trees are at a different location, but these are next to the road.
I was not involved in this project, but was on the site several years ago as a consultant for a power plant that looked at them as a potential fuel source. They were way too thick back then.  I just happened to drive by them the other day and took the picture.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #9 on: September 27, 2018, 11:14:23 AM »
So now all theyre good for is piling in the water to make artificial surf breaks.  Then build mana pua gentry on the site. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline kanoak

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #10 on: September 27, 2018, 01:51:58 PM »
I believe these are either E. grandis or hybrid E. grandis x E urophylla. A couple of years ago they were being harvested and logs were being sent to china; I heard that they were meant for studs. There was an incredible amount of tension in the logs; ends quartered themselves in the yard. There is a new bioenergy plant that may start to use some of them for feedstock. As noted, processing facilities and freight are limiting factors, particularly when dealing with low value material.
There have been close to 60 eucalyptus species planted in the islands, some extensively. Some of my house is made up of E. robusta which was widely planted as windbreaks in wet sites a century ago. E. sideroxylon can be seen on the drier side of waimea headed to kona on the upper road, planted as windbreak and shade for cattle. 
Aloha,
Kanoa

Offline sealark37

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #11 on: September 27, 2018, 02:51:57 PM »
What is a nice boy from Plattsburgh doing in the Islands?  You are missing the best weather of the year at home!  Should you not be tuning up your snow machine?   Been there, done that.   Regards, Clark

Offline Haleiwa

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #12 on: September 27, 2018, 03:59:49 PM »
I've lived on Oahu for 20 years. This is one last play trip before we move to New York.  It's my wife's home.
Socialism is people pretending to work while the government pretends to pay them.  Mike Huckabee

Offline Ianab

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2018, 04:14:02 PM »
Main problem with young eucalyptus like that is the wood is incredibly unstable from those smaller young logs. I've sawn sawn some, and it's developed every conceivable drying defect, all in the same board. Bet you didn't know a board could "cup" in both directions? Yup, into an S shape.  :D

Bigger older logs seem to be better behaved, and the exact species makes a big difference. 

Tight growth rings? Nah, try none. In the tropics they will just grow all year round, and put on a couple of inches dia every year. Even here in NZ I've cut down one for a friend that was ~10 years old, and over 20" at the stump. Not sure of the species, but the wood from that one actually behaved as it dried. ???

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Offline nativewolf

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2018, 04:37:26 PM »
I believe these are either E. grandis or hybrid E. grandis x E urophylla. A couple of years ago they were being harvested and logs were being sent to china; I heard that they were meant for studs. There was an incredible amount of tension in the logs; ends quartered themselves in the yard. There is a new bioenergy plant that may start to use some of them for feedstock. As noted, processing facilities and freight are limiting factors, particularly when dealing with low value material.
There have been close to 60 eucalyptus species planted in the islands, some extensively. Some of my house is made up of E. robusta which was widely planted as windbreaks in wet sites a century ago. E. sideroxylon can be seen on the drier side of waimea headed to kona on the upper road, planted as windbreak and shade for cattle.
Hey good to hear from you Kanoak!  How goes the fight against the firegods and invasive species?  E. grandis can develop into nice wood given enough time.  I don't know how it responds to thinning after suppression.  
Liking Walnut

Offline kanoak

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2018, 01:45:23 AM »
Aloha nativewolf, good to hear from you. Pele is taking a nap for the moment and the weather on my side is beautiful. Weed maintenance is constant and high priority at the moment as we are moving into short season and many of my targets, the giant grasses will flower and set seed quite quickly at this time of year. Not sure these plantings will be given proper management and time to turn into a more valuable resource; heard talk that the landowner is thinking of razing a significant amount and reverting the land to pasture. It is a shame that they chose this course back at the end of the sugar era.
Aloha,
Kanoa

Offline mike_belben

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2018, 07:19:15 AM »
Whats avg price on a gallon of milk these days?

And what exactly caused the sugar cane implosion?  The world never consumed more of it than we presently do.
Revelation 3:20

Offline longtime lurker

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2018, 08:32:31 AM »
I dont think those are E grandis - bark looks wrong to me. I am unfamiliar with E. urophylla or the hybrid.

E grandis is mostly used here for flooring, hardwood pallets, some use in general construction... its not particularly durable if weather exposed, though fine for internal use, and the high shrinkage means its mostly used in seasoned or KD applications. Nice timber though.




E. grandis logs in the bush, and half a one hooked up to the skidder.  Anything under about 80' to the first branch I would consider short.


 

 

grandis timber is the redder sample on the left,  I'd call that about middle of its colour range. It's reasonably workable so long as care is taken in drying. 
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Offline Haleiwa

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2018, 01:39:51 PM »
Whats avg price on a gallon of milk these days?

And what exactly caused the sugar cane implosion?  The world never consumed more of it than we presently do.
Hawaii sugar rode the subsidy train for decades.  When fear of Fidel Castro lost its ability to scare people, the train came to a screeching halt.  
Milk on Oahu is between 4.50 and 5.00 at Costco.  Considerably higher elsewhere.  Way higher on the outer islands.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2018, 04:49:57 PM »
Makes sense.  Im pretty sure cuba is number 1 sugar state, and we are its primary target buyer.
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Offline Claybraker

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #20 on: September 28, 2018, 05:24:18 PM »
Whats avg price on a gallon of milk these days?

And what exactly caused the sugar cane implosion?  The world never consumed more of it than we presently do.
Hawaii sugar rode the subsidy train for decades.  When fear of Fidel Castro lost its ability to scare people, the train came to a screeching halt.  
Milk on Oahu is between 4.50 and 5.00 at Costco.  Considerably higher elsewhere.  Way higher on the outer islands. 
Way back in the mid 1700's Britain imposed tariffs on sugar and molasses imported to the colonies.  The Sugar Act of 1764 which protected wealthy British plantation owners in the West Indies was one of the irritants that led to the rebellion a few years later. 

Offline Ianab

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #21 on: September 28, 2018, 05:44:27 PM »
Dairy cows don't do well in the islands. We holiday in the Cook Islands, and basically you just don't buy milk like we normally do. Fresh has to be air freighted 4 hours from NZ, so its mostly UHT cartoned. But then you can just pick up coconuts off the ground if you are thirsty, and know how to open one.
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Offline Riwaka

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2018, 01:54:29 AM »
To clear the eucs in hawaii put a $1 levy/ passenger on the tourists to buy a big feller buncher or two and  plant back into native vegetation.

E saligna can be turned into fibreboard but you would need a fair sized area and the electricity to run a mdf plant. 
https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf2001/krzys01a.pdf

Hawaii sugar - high costs versus sugar growing in other places with cheaper labour (slave labour)



Aussies have tropical cows

https://www.weeklytimesnow.com.au/agribusiness/dairy/herd-17-bred-for-a-tropical-climate/news-story/baf9e7512ca01d57d69da4fa37f4a9bd





Offline kanoak

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2018, 02:49:00 AM »
Aloha, 
longtime I have not done any proper identification on the species or cut any wood; just passing along what I have read on their plantings. Very cool and informative to see the wood and stand pictures. As stated by the op these stands have been neglected and I don't think there are many trees >12" dbh at this point but it would be great if they were managed as a resource instead of a problem. One thing I consistently hear about is the lack of quality drying. Local woodworkers don't like to work with local wood because of defect and poor consistency of product. 
Ranching is still big on the island; mostly for tax purposes at this point. I don't drink milk here; it is pasteurized, shipped, and then re-pasteurized. Besides paying a premium there is a very short time before it is the nastiest thing in the fridge. We used to have a multitude of independent dairies as well as butcher shops every couple of miles along the main roads. There is one dairy now and they are getting hammered for effluent discharge and growing gmo silage politically. Ranching did a number on the native flora, but created a vibrant culture that still hangs on. 
Other nails in the coffin of Hawaiian sugar were the rise of the sugar beet and the cost of labor.
Aloha,
Kanoa

Offline SwampDonkey

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2018, 03:28:56 AM »
One of the reasons I liked the old Hawaii 5-O was the shots of the natural landscape and the sugar plantation scenes. I don't watch the remake of the show at all.

An interesting part of the world. Who hasn't dreamed of going there? I don't think I'll make it, but I guess I'll make do on my own piece of paradise. :)

Pre-commercial thinning pays off. :)

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Offline kanoak

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2018, 04:00:20 AM »
You are absolutely right Swamp, paradise is now, not somewhere. Don't really want to ruin our image, but we have the same problems that are endemic to the states, as well as a few from the third world; a lot of locals, we call it brain drain,  move to the mainland to find greener pasture.
Aloha,
Kanoa

Offline Ianab

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2018, 06:09:40 AM »
An interesting part of the world. Who hasn't dreamed of going there? I don't think I'll make it, but I guess I'll make do on my own piece of paradise


You never know....

When I met up with Lil, we talked about "where would you go on a holiday?" I said "Some Tropical Island... "
Next thing I know I'm in Rarotonga. :D  

Then

"So, should we get married?"   

Only if I can be bare foot on a tropical Island Beach,,,,

Yup, Back to Raro... :D

To be fair Rarotonga isn't really anything like Hawaii, apart from being an Island in the Pacific. They have some cool rules, like you can't "buy" land. Only lease it.  And you can't build anything taller than a Coconut Tree. So there is no McDonalds / KFC, or huge resorts.  Makes it more like the Hawaii that people want to remember....
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2018, 08:14:03 PM »
Worse places to be then Raro Ian.

I've been getting back to this for a couple days, out in the weeds working you guys know the drill...

Those Eucalypts...  I mean there's 600 odd species of Eucalypt but those particular species you've mentioned as being a nuisance there... are highly valued as chip. Its about the density/ fibre length/ whatever other technical considerations but basicly they use those Euc species chips to blend with other sorts of woodchips to improve the properties of the finished product be it paper or fibreboard or whatever.

And Euc chip is doing good - demand is strong, prices are up, and no end to the good days in sight those as with anything in this industry whatever booms usually goes bust sooner or later.



$200  AUD/ BDMT is about $145 US per 2240lb dry ton. BDMT (Bone dry metric ton is the international chip unit, sorta like oil being sold by the barrel).

I know what I'd be doing with them.... attack... anything over 14" SED will go export log to China at around $0.40 USD/BF (based on what they're paying for the same species ex wharf here),(( EDIT: that is unscaled/ straight volune measure/defect and kerf allowance not deducted ))chip the rest for Japan or China... get a contract and go like blazes while the market is strong.

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Offline Riwaka

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2018, 08:34:10 PM »
School probably would not be too happy if they received a multi million dollar bill for the expense of removing the gum trees.
Kamehameha Schools starts new search for harvest operator - West Hawaii Today

Offline kanoak

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #29 on: October 15, 2018, 11:54:33 PM »
Contract is now up for bids. From todays paper it looks like they want someone to cut 3k acres. 
Aloha,
Kanoa

Offline Ianab

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2018, 04:33:59 AM »
It's not that the trees are worthless, it's just that the infrastructure to market them from Hawaii isn't in place. 

"Build it and they will come" isn't always the answer. 

And setting up the infrastructure now is questionable, because of the current problems, there is no ongoing harvest being replanted once the current one is gone.

Locally you could make money cutting that stuff for firewood, but being a tropical Island I'm guessing that market is extremely limited.  :D

Hopefully someone can put a plan together with enough financial backing to make it work.
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Offline LeeB

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Re: This is what happens when you don't thin.
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2018, 06:03:40 AM »
Maybe mulch or compost? 
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