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Author Topic: Skidder/Forwarder Question  (Read 1594 times)

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Offline teakwood

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Skidder/Forwarder Question
« on: October 07, 2018, 09:16:54 AM »
A big teak company in my area has ask me to help them out with their new purchase. They bought a Welte 130M from Germany and shipped her over.

At 5.11 the 130M is explained.



They asked me to train the operators and help with maintenance and overall care taking of the machine.
Although i have very limited experience with this type of machine i do have vast knowledge owner/operating my old deere skidder and the big Volvo Excavator.
I'm also known as a machine owner who takes excellent care of his machines.
They other big thing is that i'm from Switzerland and speak german and the machine is from Germany and i can translate some doubts to spanish and explain them to the operators.

A question for the FF forwarder operators? What do you guys use for traction in the rainy/muddy months?  Chains or Tracks?  
 
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2018, 09:30:24 AM »
Tracks all the way around chains might be ok if youre on flat ground.

Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2018, 10:44:47 AM »
it's a 6x6 machine, so the front axle is just one, like a normal skidder. Also tracks on the front tires?
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2018, 10:58:24 AM »
it's a 6x6 machine, so the front axle is just one, like a normal skidder. Also tracks on the front tires?
Id track the front tire as well, they do it on the skidders up here all the time.

Offline barbender

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2018, 11:07:50 AM »
That looks like a nice machine. We run tracks under the bunks, and chains under the cab.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Gary_C

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2018, 11:23:32 AM »
Tracks will give you flotation and traction, chains only traction. 

I run tracks on the bogies pretty much year around and chains on the front only when steering becomes a problem in hard frozen ground.
Never take life seriously. Nobody gets out alive anyway.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2018, 11:39:09 AM »
Guys with the 6wd forwarders out here and harvesters run tracks all the way around.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2018, 10:02:17 PM »
Tracks/ chains on the Welte will be how well the axles are made and what the manual book allows for weight.

Something like a terra 85 on the bogie?
Terra 85 | Clark Tracks

4 cylinder not as nice a sound as the 6 cylinder
Volvo engine in this spec sheet
https://www.welte.de/fileadmin/downloads/4-zylinder_w130_web_en.pdf
deutz in this one?
Details - Welte Forstmaschinen, Kombimaschinen, Kommunalmaschinen und Spezialfahrzeuge

Find out what other machines they have; to work out the best combination to put together a recovery team/ (kit - blocks, dyneema rope etc)  Big tow -australia    Synthetic Rope Services | BIGTOW Heavy Vehicle Recovery Strop    and equipment for when they flip the Welte on its side or upside down. Laminated instruction sheets in espanol with diagrams to reduce the chance of wrecking the welte when recovering it. Making sure the engine is right before attempting a re-start etc.  
Show them how to make home made DEF if short of DEF in the wilderness. etc

Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2018, 08:20:31 AM »
Thanks for all the replies.

It will be the 4zyl Volvo penta motor with all the oils all ready changed to what we can buy here in Costa Rica. I talked to the boss of the company and he explained me that another container is sent with tracks and parts/ filters/ oils, so i will see what we can make with that. Initial oil changes have to be made by 250 and 500 h of use

They have several ag tractors with 3pt winchs, 4 bells for the landings and loading containers and some trucks with cranes.
They had a cat forwarder which is broke down because of operator errors and lack of maintenance.
I did a post some years ago, had great responses form our members and forwarded this to the CEO but they didn't made changes because the chief of Operation is penny pinching and has the big hammer on production production production.


Forwarder loaded with teak. pics in Forestry and Logging

I already told the CEO that it's crucial to have just one or two good operators for that machine and that the maintenance is made by only one and the same person, which i hope i will be. If they don't like my ideas i will walk away. a 400-500k machine should be handled correctly no matter the cost so she can produce money!
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Offline barbender

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2018, 09:19:13 AM »
They don't produce produce produce if you don't maintain them correctly!
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2018, 07:05:07 AM »
If the manager wants production the cat 574 forwarder will have to be fixed.

I would use the Welte in clambunk spec . I assume the teak is hand-chainsaw felled and chopped mostly to full length at the stump.

Then welte to pull out long length logs to somewhere to chainsaw to shorter length. Find a Hitachi zx225 or similar cat excavator  with grapple. to sort and stack. 
Then cat forwarder up dirt track to roadside where road? trucks with cranes can self load.  

Personnel - 2/3 chainsaw felling,  1 welte operator,  2 chainsaw cutting to length & using zx225 and cat 574 operator.   (total 6, 7 or more crew)

Probably have a crane trailer as a backup to the cat (if it is ruined) and winch tractors backup to welte.

Depending on aims -Best practice, least soil damage or least cost? Make some grapple wheel logging arches  for the tractors?
Profidrive trailer on tractor 


If logs need to stay long find a usable  articulated dump truck for log hauler conversion
Volvo adt hauler

Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 08:10:36 AM »
The plan, and i'm sure that we have to make changes over time, is:

15 hand fallers (they want to reduce that) drop tree and top, in slopes winch the trees with tractors and oxen (15 pairs available) to flatter ground where the welte, which will work just as a clambunk machine, can grab the long wood and forward  to the wood roads where they get deposited and then load to the trucks (maybe with a grapple excavator, not sure yet about that step???) and the trucks bring the loads to the big landings where they get shorted and sorted and put in containers for export or they haul the load to the sawmill they own. The landing they have pretty much figured out with the tri tire bells for sorting and loading.
I have a 30to Volvo Excavator but without a grapple and i'm not sure if i could try to work something out with them to get a contract. but maybe she is just too big.

This company harvests 30 000 m3 a year and this will raise to 50 000 m3 in a few years so we need to optimize the wood handling.
Take in mind that 7 months of the year we have rainseason where production gets crippled in half and the nice wood roads get nasty.
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 09:00:28 AM »
Sounds more like they need a harvester then hand fallers, here some of the guys yard and load the trucks with the forwarders.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2018, 09:51:12 AM »
Yeah but how do you maintain a harvester in the jungle?  Men are a lot easier and cheaper to replace, and the short time window makes staying running critical.  Cant be waiting for parts when its time to make hay. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2018, 09:54:23 AM »
When i think of a harvester i think computers and cables and diagnostic ports.  to me a forwarder is just a long skidder, but i guess by now even a new forwarder will have complicated systems.
Revelation 3:20

Offline barbender

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2018, 11:55:02 AM »
They do, Mike. They have less maintenance and repairs than a harvester by far, but you still need someone like teakwood close by to take care of issues that arise.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2018, 06:33:07 PM »
Rain forest think  6x6, 8x8 trucks like the Renault Kerax, Nissan Diesel,  Scania, MAN, Volvo , Mercedes etc get used as log haul trucks in the tropics.

MAN TGS 40.440 6x6    going up a dirt assisted by bulldozer and rubber tired loader - check the airlines to the trailer.
Truck Logging MAN TGS 40.440 6x6 dengan Kerja sama team di Medan berat. - YouTube

Hyundai are starting to do a few more extras from factory for forestry - India - Hyundai r140w - reinforced boom & grill from factory, ( also do a 170), can guess any track machine is likely to be driven too far if there are no truck transporters close by. A log loader boom might be helpful. With the digger boom there are quick change attachments between power rotate log grapple/ heel and a bucket.


Offline Riwaka

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2018, 03:43:27 PM »
Small cable system for small teak extraction - Laos with Maxwald/ Seilwinden, Austria.
Lifting logs to reduce soil compaction and erosion on within stand skid trails.

Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2018, 07:06:39 PM »
thanks Riwaka for the good videos, very informative.

But for our area her it seems to complicated, time consuming to install, to small and to slow. The company i will work for does already clear cuts in 20 year old teak. logs up to 24m long and 20" diam weighting in at 500-1000 kg green weight.  

at 5.00 min they say that you need min. 30m3 per installation to be profitable, with those toothpicks they haul in the video you will need more than 250-300 trees to get to 30m3. even if the line is 200m long you will not get to these numbers in a teak thinning.

Spoke with the CEO and he is waiting for a offer. He wants me to give a price for my days work for the initial 2 weeks straight. Training the operators, overwatch the machine for good use and workpractice. 
and then 1day every week or second week to overlook the operation and make the oil changes and maintenance on the machine with their company mechanic.  

i think 100$/day for the first 2 weeks and then 150$/day for the maintenance and i bring my own tools. What do you guys think? take in mind that we don't have first wold salaries. a worker owns 20$ a day, a operator 40-50$ 
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2018, 08:48:20 PM »
I live in the first world and have worked harder for less.  

Revelation 3:20

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2018, 07:31:20 AM »
I'd say what does a supervisory mechanic cost in relationship to an operator in Europe or the US.  2-3 times as much?  I'd think at least that.

Good luck !
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Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2018, 07:52:31 AM »
I live in the first world and have worked harder for less.  
Believe me mike, me too!
That is what i figured also nativewolf.  I bring my knowledge as owner/operator, mechanic and translator, so i think my time is worth that.
I also have to drive with my own car to the site, one is 10km the other 40km away.
I will include some off worktime duty for that price such as:
contact with the Welte fabric for mechanical question and assistance
the axles and boogies are from a different brand. NAF, so i have to contact them to get any info because the welte books don't explain this parts.
document maintenance history    
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2018, 10:09:45 AM »
Yep, documenting and staying ahead of things.  They just don't have the same conditions that you will have to deal with.  May I say that is an odd choice.  Wonder how they came to that decision?
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Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2018, 06:05:26 PM »
They just don't have the same conditions that you will have to deal with.  May I say that is an odd choice.

What do you mean with that? i'm not sure i fully understand.

Today they sent me the parts list they ordered with the machine, oh boy it's a dream.  26k in parts, filters, tires with rims, break valves, magnetic spools, pressure sensors, switches, the list goes on and on.
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2018, 07:06:59 PM »
I look at Welte as a boutique specialist with a narrow customer base almost all in N Europe.  In N Europe overall user/operator/mechanic employee pool is pretty good and the conditions are known.  

To me Welte seems a bit of a risk, low global sales in a complex machine.  Neat machine and if you owned it ...great, you'd make the most of it.  But to buy it without knowing they have someone like you on board...whew that could be high risk.  Of course they bought cat before, risk of a different sort.  

JD, Komatsu, Ponsse are much larger manufactures with wider distribution networks. 

Are your soils in CR ultisoils I guess maybe so, actually different physical properties than many soils in NE.  Certainly different temperature regimes.  Are all the cooling system sufficient?  Will you have to double/triple down on fluid changes, add more cooling, etc.  I'd have picked a machine known to work in tropical conditions and knowing that the hydrostatic drive components could take the wear and tear and abuse.  Or, if they can't to know it.   

I mean with you on board they should be quite fine, and that parts lists is great!  Without you on board...well it could turn into another parked machine.
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Offline barbender

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2018, 07:16:39 PM »
I don't think it really matters what manufacturer they chose with a modern forwarder, I doubt anyone has much of a presence in CR, especially CTL equipment.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2018, 07:57:33 PM »
Barbender I agree on presence in CR not being so much the issue.  This might be one of the few Welte machines in the world working in the tropics and I think that is important.  It is never cool, deep volcanic clay soils actually have different soil properties, they can sometimes be tough on equipment.  Just ...well it is interesting.  Ponsse has  many sales in Brazil for instance.  So they have some experience with forwarders in the tropics and cooling system.  Ditto for Komatsu and JD maybe there are some Tigercat machines working Brazil, I don't know.  

Anyhow, it was a bit odd.  I mean it would be odd if you bought one in MN but just a bit more so in CR.  They may be the only welte customer in central america.  On the other hand, I bet the Welte techs are glad to visit in January :).  
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Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2018, 09:03:44 PM »
They may be the only welte customer in central america.  On the other hand, I bet the Welte techs are glad to visit in January .  


You can bet on that, maybe even the only one in america. I hope i can work with/for them but remember this machines are also new to me, so i'm by no means an expert. I will add a lot of value for the maintenance part and i'm good in careful operator overlooking.

I look at Welte as a boutique specialist with a narrow customer base almost all in N Europe.  In N Europe overall user/operator/mechanic employee pool is pretty good and the conditions are known.  


That's what i ask the CEO, what's up with parts and repair assistance?  He told me that it was exactly the same with the CAT, in CR CAT only sells construction equipment so they wouldn't even bother with helping them finding parts. so it doesn't matter which brand you buy, you will have to import parts and service.

They did a mayor repair on the Forwarder, the whole back end is new, drives and boogies (who would have seen that coming ), so the forwarder is also ready for work and i'm sure i need to overlook those operators too
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Offline nativewolf

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2018, 09:23:25 PM »
I'm sure you'll do just fine.  Supposed to be fine machines.  Just putting a machine in a totally new environment is always a gamble.  I guess I'm paranoid re the hydraulic cooling, I would watch the cooling as you put a load on the machine.  It would be nice to get a video camera filming the control panels or else to see if they offer a output to capture a data dump of the hydraulic system as it goes about the day.  See how the temps change as you put the load, try with varying loads at various outdoor temps.  Take a fluid sample before you start working and then 2 weeks later.  

Good luck, seems this could be a good gig for you!
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2018, 09:31:32 PM »
My main question is why not just put a clam bunk on the forwarder? Cat didnt originally build those forwarders they were Fabtek which means you can source everything for them. How much production is left on the table not running a processor even on the landing? Theres other places you can make effective use of that money vs this machine would be my thought.

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #30 on: October 11, 2018, 10:12:33 PM »
Cat forwarder (vs clam bunk)Guessing that the logs have to be kept clean for export) Log would not want the expense of washing logs or exporting a container half full of mud.

Volvo have some fairly new wheeled excavators - single tires so the mud does not clog them like duals.   15 tonne with 3 section boom (volvo have 20 tonne and others)

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #31 on: October 11, 2018, 10:23:43 PM »
With a forwarder that has a clambunk on it you can do both tree length or short logs since a set or two of bunk are retained with the clam holding the tops tight.

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #32 on: October 11, 2018, 10:35:37 PM »
Just like this 

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #33 on: October 11, 2018, 10:54:21 PM »
Yep the Weltie is an odd choice.  I'd have gone for Ponsse, they have offices and sales in Brazil so they know tropics.  Big company, great forwarders and processors.  JD would have been the second.  I'd have bought something looking at getting a processor.  Everything tracked up and bought a few extra tracks to be careful.  Plantation thinning work, you could do it all with a small team and 1 mechanic.  Jam through it with 24 hour shifts.  If you have too much capacity move into subcontracting.  Perfect sorts via the processor computer.  
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Offline barbender

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #34 on: October 11, 2018, 11:31:31 PM »
Ponsse definitely has experience in Brazil, I wasn't considering the heat factor. Sometimes when us grunts on the ground are scratching our heads wondering about a decision, with all the practical aspects of keeping something running and making money, the actual decision we envision a lot of thought went into could've been as simple as a couple CEOs bumping into each other in a bar or something. "I need to get a machine to Costa Rica to haul teak." "Oh yeah? My nephew runs a company where they make those!"🙄
Too many irons in the fire

Offline Riwaka

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #35 on: October 12, 2018, 03:25:43 AM »
Ponsse ten years in Brazil & background

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #36 on: October 12, 2018, 08:06:23 AM »
Ponsse definitely has experience in Brazil, I wasn't considering the heat factor. Sometimes when us grunts on the ground are scratching our heads wondering about a decision, with all the practical aspects of keeping something running and making money, the actual decision we envision a lot of thought went into could've been as simple as a couple CEOs bumping into each other in a bar or something. "I need to get a machine to Costa Rica to haul teak." "Oh yeah? My nephew runs a company where they make those!"🙄
Ha, I've been that guy selling the ceo :).  In this case though I think it is just making job security for teakwood.  
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Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #37 on: October 12, 2018, 08:32:42 AM »
 No no, i will try to explain. The company is Swiss and the new inverstors are from Germany, Welte is from Germany so maybe that was a point. But i think the real reason is they have some logger friends/contractors which some times work and help for the firm giving them advice. the have come over to look at the process how we work here. they have done directional felling courses for the chainsaw operators (which didn't stick by the way  ), skidding and handling improvements, good guys with lots of experience in Switzerland. As they know the complicated machines from Europe (Welte, HSM, Valtra, ...) very well and have it sorted out logging in Central Europe they want to adapt that system here, so they suggest the only machines they are familiar with.
The biggest problem i see is the operators, in Switzerland a operator earns 6k a month has excellent training and are experts in knowing their machine.
I am not saying that there are no good operators in CR but they are few and have to be found and trained well.  
I'm surely not the best operator there is but if my excavator has a complain i feel it right away in my butt or i hear it and will stop to investigate the problem and that is my biggest selling point, but kinda hard to explain to a CEO.
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Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #38 on: October 12, 2018, 08:47:56 AM »
I would watch the cooling as you put a load on the machin


Thanks for that advice, i will definitively put an eye on it.

My main question is why not just put a clam bunk on the forwarder?


Good point to consider. I think the machines will always be used to haul long wood, so the clambunk is king.

I'd have bought something looking at getting a processor.


A processor would be to complicated and expensive i think. Teak has very sturdy branches and they can damage the log, just a thought. The bark peels really easy when green and a processor head would definitely peel a log and we get payed by the diam. a peeled log is less diam and will give less money, even if it's just 5%.
Remember teak, even in small diam, is a high value wood. So we have high value but high careful handling logging going on here, i don't know if that makes sense.
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #39 on: October 12, 2018, 09:48:51 AM »
Quote
The company is Swiss and the new inverstors are from Germany, Welte is from Germany
Ahh so it was a kickback scheme then...  

;D



Costa rica is a lot of red clay right?  Does it rain enough to keep dust down during harvest timeframe or is it dry powder?   Basically oil leaks and dust will be the main cause of reduced heat exchanger efficiency.  Periodic power washings of the radiator and oil cooler and any time a hose blows, getting that powerwashed before dirt starts caking on.. Will go a long way.  You want a fuel oil fired steam producing power washer to break the grease and oil down.  

If its that crazy hot you may have to add heat exchanger capacity.  And it probably wont fit under the tin.  If absolutely necessary i would look at feasibility of building a cage mount over the cab roof and have aluminum cores and 1/8" tanks tigged up at the local racecar shop.  I would duct them for electric fans with sideflow so that they haveeither white or reflective tin armor over the top, to prevent solar heating and leaves from packing into the fins. The degas tank and fill cap would have to go on the top.  Air space is always needed at highest point in a cooling system and there would be no more checking coolant from the lower radiator cap unless you want a face full.  

 The good news is heat rises so roof exchangers are really effective at creating a thermal siphon with no pump flow.  The machines would cool down pretty well even just parked in the shade at lunch.  The more surface area the better.  
Revelation 3:20

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2018, 11:02:43 AM »
(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)(Image hidden from quote, click to view.) No no, i will try to explain. The company is Swiss and the new inverstors are from Germany, Welte is from Germany so maybe that was a point. But i think the real reason is they have some logger friends/contractors which some times work and help for the firm giving them advice. the have come over to look at the process how we work here. they have done directional felling courses for the chainsaw operators (which didn't stick by the way  (Image hidden from quote, click to view.)), skidding and handling improvements, good guys with lots of experience in Switzerland. As they know the complicated machines from Europe (Welte, HSM, Valtra, ...) very well and have it sorted out logging in Central Europe they want to adapt that system here, so they suggest the only machines they are familiar with.
The biggest problem i see is the operators, in Switzerland a operator earns 6k a month has excellent training and are experts in knowing their machine.
I am not saying that there are no good operators in CR but they are few and have to be found and trained well.  
I'm surely not the best operator there is but if my excavator has a complain i feel it right away in my butt or i hear it and will stop to investigate the problem and that is my biggest selling point, but kinda hard to explain to a CEO.
SO germans knowing best.  Well, that's pretty common phenom in german overseas operations. Its why they often don't do so hot with them ( the strength of german is not multinationals it is middle sized national companies).  German investors is the only reason this makes sense and I predict an excellent off farm income for you.
Re bark stripping off, most scales measure inside bark.  You are paid on outside bark diameter?  I'd still put a processor head to work.  Keep knives sharp and rollers updated/maintained.  In fact, seems to me a teak operation would almost be perfect for mechanization.  
Liking Walnut

Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2018, 04:47:45 PM »
You are paid on outside bark diameter?


Yes we are. however it would be interesting to see how a processor would do in teak.  
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

Offline teakwood

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2018, 04:53:54 PM »
Costa rica is a lot of red clay right?  Does it rain enough to keep dust down during harvest timeframe or is it dry powder?


Where they have the Fincas there is no red clay!  It rains quite a bit in rainseason with lots of mud and it's bonedry in dryseason with lots of dust.

It's hot but not dessert hot, so the temp for the machines doesn't concerns me too much. My Volvo Excavator i brought down from the states and my old 540A deere do just fine with the heat.
But good point on the periodic pressure washing
National Stihl Timbersports Champion Costa Rica 2018

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Skidder/Forwarder Question
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2018, 07:58:51 PM »
You are paid on outside bark diameter?


Yes we are. however it would be interesting to see how a processor would do in teak.  
Its about which drive rolls are on the head, the drive roll pressure, and knife pressure. Doing alder here I cant pierce the wood with the feed rolls for stain reasons, when we do it Ill loose up the rolls and knifes with no issues with log reject.


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