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Author Topic: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters  (Read 3031 times)

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Offline ppine

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Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« on: October 07, 2018, 11:40:48 AM »
I never thought I would ever consider this concept.  I spend a lot of time talking with foresters, and the modern ones are all caught up in global warming, sustainability, collaboration and other crap.  Some of them seem to think forests are best managed by controlling fire.  It is very disturbing and needs to change.  I encourage anyone in the logging business, to stand up and make your opinions known.  Attend hearings, send letters, and emails. 

Logging is obviously, to anyone worth their maple syrup, the only way out of the mess we are in.  One hundred years of fire suppression and reduced logging since the early 90s, has left with tremendous overstocking, especially on public lands.  Get the word out.  It is time to start thinning, harvesting, and removing timber like we mean it.  The technology is well understood.  Clear cutting, selection cuts, seed tree and shelterwood methods can all be used depending on the application. 

The wood products infrastructure has shrunk in many areas where it is hard to find a mill.  Haul distance makes some site uneconomical.  Start with the ones where you can make some money.  Taking the large trees is how you pay for taking the smaller trees.  Down the Road. 
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Offline bushmechanic

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2018, 01:43:16 PM »
I think you are correct there ppine, but unfortunately we are subject to public opinion. I'm not allowed to roll a tire through a stream but when I watch tv I see gold miners tearing up streams and creeks, diverting water and that's all ok. It's strange how we are harvesting a renewable resource and oil seems way more important! Now they want to ban plastic bag use, I wonder why they went away from paper in the first place! I'd better stop now, next thing I may offend someone :o     

Offline Texas Ranger

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2018, 02:50:54 PM »
I disagree, politely, logging is one tool in our tool box, as is fire, chemicals, etc.  Poor forestry at the federal level is a good source to find the problem.
The Ranger, home of Texas Forestry

Offline Skeans1

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2018, 06:33:50 PM »
I agree having worked for foresters that do create fire hazards with down wood piles and snags for the PC crowd.

Online Runningalucas

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2018, 07:06:26 PM »
I agree a lot with the OP, imho, the problem arises at the educational level, and how lobbying from corporate conglomerates have some of their strongest effects at the education, or developmental level. 


Online thecfarm

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2018, 07:23:36 PM »
@bushmechanic,how right you are with the plastic bags. One city in Maine will charge you 5 cents for every plastic bag. ::)  Just go back to paper. Oh I forgot,cutting trees is bad. ::)  I wonder how many paper bags have ever killed a critter that lives in water.
As I keep saying I would like these people to live one year without using a wood product.
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Offline BargeMonkey

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2018, 08:05:13 PM »
Oh boy 🤣🤣🤣  This is like the classic "Chevy / Ford" or "Husky / Stihl" war. I've found that 3/4 of foresters I work with here are very good, I've seen alot of guys who would rather argue and cry than explain "Why" they dont feel something is right on a job. Anymore jobs here marked by state or private foresters are BIG and what wasnt acceptable yrs ago for smash / barking up is normal, the little guy is being pushed out here. My gripe with foresters has more to do with which ones can be bought or how collusion is rampant, my competion is literally sleeping with the forester who is marking jobs for him, I'm going to pull the rug out on both of them one day. 🤣 

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #7 on: October 07, 2018, 09:55:14 PM »
Going to war with your forestry adversaries will only make them dig in further.  Win them over with proof.  

Find a terrible site, find landmarks to take pictures from (numbered stumps would work great) and fix the site with a chainsaw.  Go back every year and take the same pictures.  Post the results wherever you can, bring people to the site for tours etc etc.   

Ive been bringing my 5 acres back from a highgrading wreck for 2 years now and the results are incredible.  More growth, more ground cover, better moisture retention, more wildlife by far. Cut cut cut.  When in doubt, cut it out. Anything iffy comes down.  Heavier i cut a patch, the faster and straighter it comes racing back. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline asw1974

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #8 on: October 07, 2018, 10:08:53 PM »
Don't put all fosters in the same boat. I am a forester who makes his living cutting timber. My mentor told me once there are two types of forestry schools, the ones in the south where they teach production forestry and the ones in the west where they teach how to take care of national land. I agree with you there are foresters in your area that don't know how to manage a forest properly. Think of all the resources wasted by just letting it burn up. For the life of me I can't understand why they don't harvest trees out there.

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #9 on: October 07, 2018, 10:22:28 PM »
Id tell ya, but that would venture into politics which is forbidden here. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2018, 11:04:51 PM »
One city in Maine will charge you 5 cents for every plastic bag.
 
Which one?  I'll go there and buy them all!  They sell for 10 cents here.  I could double my investment overnight! :D
John Sawicky

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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2018, 11:34:08 PM »
Oh boy 🤣🤣🤣  This is like the classic "Chevy / Ford" or "Husky / Stihl" war. I've found that 3/4 of foresters I work with here are very good, I've seen alot of guys who would rather argue and cry than explain "Why" they dont feel something is right on a job. Anymore jobs here marked by state or private foresters are BIG and what wasnt acceptable yrs ago for smash / barking up is normal, the little guy is being pushed out here. My gripe with foresters has more to do with which ones can be bought or how collusion is rampant, my competion is literally sleeping with the forester who is marking jobs for him, I'm going to pull the rug out on both of them one day. 🤣
Have you had this one yet on say a thin they want you to across a hillside sideways vs up and down? Or another favorite of mine when cutting they marked all this out with 90 degree corners on tree length wood.

Online barbender

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2018, 01:11:41 AM »
Yes and yes😂 "That won't work" "yes it will" "ok🙄🙄". They start to figure it out when you scrape every tree with the stakes on the forwarder on the low side of the trail. That 9' wide machine is about 11' wide when you tilt it, you see🙄 I make every effort to work with the foresters, and honestly, I haven't realy ever butted heads with any of them. Once they realize I am trying to do my job the way the want it, they also recieve my advice and complaints more willingly. 
Too many irons in the fire

Offline ppine

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2018, 01:56:57 PM »
Natural resource management in the US is now dominated by politics over science.  It is a sad state of affairs. 
I fear that our knowledge base for how to harvest forests is being lost. 
Forest engineering used to be a common major in universities.  Now it hardly exists at all. 
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Offline timberking

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2018, 03:55:22 PM »
I so glad the forester I work with everyday (me) is level headed.  

Offline BradMarks

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #15 on: October 08, 2018, 06:11:03 PM »
How about getting charged for PAPER bags :o. Yep, the city across the river from me. Majority of those city council and county commissioners OPPOSE logging on Federal land.  And this is in a county that receives timber receipts from fed timber sales. And is also a county that is broke and constantly dreaming up new tax revenue schemes. As far as forestry schools out west, a person does have a choice in which path they follow. There still are schools with "real" forestry (harvest and grow) programs and certainly ones with "policy" forestry available. Often times the same school, different course regimen.

Offline Maine logger88

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #16 on: October 08, 2018, 06:32:42 PM »
One city in Maine will charge you 5 cents for every plastic bag.

Which one?  I'll go there and buy them all!  They sell for 10 cents here.  I could double my investment overnight! :D
There is another city in Maine that fines stores for using plastic bags lol
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Offline Riwaka

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #17 on: October 08, 2018, 07:09:30 PM »
Probably only part of the above topic.
Juan covers some aspects of the californian wild-fires in this - started half way through as the 2nd half has some appropriate observations.

California Wildfires 2018 - California's Unsustainable Legacy - YouTube

Offline Autocar

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2018, 08:02:41 PM »
Well I might as well add my two cents ! I am not a big on foresters I have always felt that a forester should go in the logging business a few years before coming a forester. Then maybe they would mark some good timber besides all the low dollar trees. A fellow can not pay bills cutting pallet logs only. And I am not putting all of them in a pile I know there are some good foresters out there. Just saying if they cut timber they would figure out in a hurry what logging all about and what it takes to survive .

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2018, 08:56:38 PM »
Natural resource management in the US is now dominated by politics over science.  
You are getting warmer. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline ljohnsaw

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2018, 09:49:26 PM »
How about getting charged for PAPER bags
Well, we get charged 10 cents whether plastic or paper.  They want everyone to reuse bags.
John Sawicky

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SkyTrak 9038, Davis Little Monster backhoe, Case 16+4 Trencher, Home Built 42" capacity/32" cut Bandmill up to 54' long - using it all to build a timber frame cabin.

Offline John Mc

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2018, 10:18:08 PM »
My take: Yes, there are some foresters who don't understand logging. There are also some loggers who don't understand forestry. As a landowner, there are some in either profession that I sure don't want on my property. Some because they are just plain incompetent or dishonest (thankfully, they seem to be a small minority of both professions), others because what they happen to be good at is not what I am interested in for my land (nothing against them or their skill-set, they are just not what I need/want).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline Texas Ranger

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2018, 12:03:07 PM »
Just an observation:  I have testified in court against loggers, so far, not against a forester. We have been on opposite sides of the question, but never against.  What has this got to do with logging?  A forester is a third party in a business where you may make one or two sales in your lifetime.  Most small land owners have not a clue on timber values, so when it comes to logging, they take the money offer, and not the future return.  Foresters understand logging, many loggers don't  understand the benefit of stand planning.   Foresters depend on loggers, most are honest, and there are dishonest foresters, landowners can increase their income by using a forester, that income comes from the logger, so the two should work hand in hand.  It gets real sticky when a dishonest forester and a dishonest logger team up, and the landowner pays the price.

My last post on this, it is to no ones benefit to argue the values of one or the other.
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Offline Skeans1

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #23 on: October 09, 2018, 12:34:24 PM »
Theres both sides of each thats for sure

Online barbender

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2018, 05:47:36 PM »
I've certainly ran into foresters that don't understand or care about the logger's ability to do the job profitably. They're a small minority. I've also seen more than a couple of loggers who expect they should be able to high grade and rut up jobs, "because they have to make money". If I am a property owner or the forester representing them, why should I expected to let you destroy the property so you can make a buck? I guess I'm saying, I see both sides of this, but I don't like foresters getting painted with a broad brush. I've heard a few horror stories about Federal foresters, that seems to be where more of the granola munchers end up in our area. However, I have found the Fed foresters I've worked with to be good as well. Most agencies here, especially the state and county, are in it to cut wood so someone that wants to gum up the works tends to end up out of work.
Too many irons in the fire

Offline BaldBob

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2018, 06:16:50 PM »

One thing to keep in mind - If the forester is working for the landowner, his/her job is to manage the forest in a way that meets the landowner's objectives. Those objectives are not necessarily to maximize timber production or even monetary return. The forester needs to accurately communicate to the logger what is expected before the job is bid. The logger needs to tailor his bid to those expectations. If achieving those expectations make it more difficult to make a profit, it is up to the logger to bid accordingly rather than gripe about the forester.  If the logger truly understands the objectives and thinks he has a better way to reach them he should discuss this with the forester prior to bidding. A conscientious forester will hear the logger out and either change the requirements or explain why the job requirements need to remain as specified.

Offline g_man

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2018, 07:00:05 PM »
As a land owner what BaldBobs says all makes perfect sense and is what I would expect to happen. But it is not a perfect world and it does not go that way at times.

gg

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2018, 07:33:05 PM »
Many foresters work for large sawmills that cut all the wood they can saw or sell. These foresters get around more wood lots than the logger who is busy cutting. Sounds like the should be friends.

Offline Magicman

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2018, 08:37:32 AM »
Some large sawmills and timberland owners have Foresters on their payroll.  They will also hire independent/individual Foresters on a need be basis.  Landowners will hire a Forester to cruise and mark timber for a potential timber sale, etc.  The responsibility of the Forester in each instance is to look after the best interest of their employer.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2018, 10:02:12 AM »
I think the struggle there is often the timeframe that best interest spans.  Its tempting to do whats most profitable now but worst for the stand and its owner (or future owner) in the future.   

The mismatch between tree payment cycles and human expense cycles. 
Revelation 3:20

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2018, 01:18:48 PM »
When I bought my property sadly I had to cut timber in order to generate enough $$ to pay for it.  My Forester's target was the amount that I needed which meant that personally I would never be able to realize any income from the property.  The Forester did his job by meeting my expectations since he was knowledgeable and had a good estimate of what the bids would be and also an idea of who would win the contract.  The timber sale was then bidded out with a two year contract to remove the marked timber.
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2018, 01:24:31 PM »
The savings on mortgage interest may likely have outweighed the revenue of a future sale.  I will take debt free now over debt free later any day.
Revelation 3:20

Offline Lumberjohn

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #32 on: October 15, 2018, 06:01:14 PM »
I remember some forester jobs back in my day. They didn't know I was getting paid by the bushel and offered me all this extra work.....cutting snags, chopping tops down, stumps had to be 4" off the ground, cutting cull trees 100 yards away etc..... all with a skidder breathing down your butt.
My choice was; getting chewed out by the boss or the forester, neither one seemed happy.

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Re: Logging is Misunderstood by Foresters
« Reply #33 on: October 15, 2018, 06:32:55 PM »
What Bald Bob said.  ;)


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