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Author Topic: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property  (Read 2895 times)

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Offline Brian_Rhoad

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2018, 02:52:55 PM »
The problem with keeping the road is that it doesn't start on his property.

Offline KirkD

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2018, 02:53:48 PM »
Keep track of every minute you spend on this even if it is just thinking about it. Your time is worth something.
Wood-mizer LT40HD-G24 Year 1989

Offline John Mc

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2018, 04:13:06 PM »
The problem with keeping the road is that it doesn't start on his property.
He mentioned it cuts over to his property pretty quickly. If he wants a road there, part of the settlement could be requiring them to make a connection through his property (and disconnect their access).
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline hinb58

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2018, 08:37:18 PM »
Hello Forum,

Sorry for delay in update. I had to take the kids trick-or-treating. I was able to contact a local attorney who has dealt and resolved issues like this before in the past. Attorney has advised that the first two steps have to be 1) to order a new survey and 2) contact a private forester, soon as possible. He stated that those two individuals will provide boundaries and/or value for entire tract and part that was disturbed. I assumed licensed & trained foresters and surveyors count as "expert witness"?  Attorney stated that there was "timber trespass". Landowner has to be "made whole again". I'm sure others will know more about that terminology than I. He believed there was "ordinary negligence not gross". He stated that I would have to "hear", not agree to what other party has to offer first (stated that it looks better). I asked about the damages part being 3x. He stated that was law, but most often landowners get 2x mature value based upon forester's cruise of removed timber if settled. Attorney stated that timber cruise, survey, and reasonable fees will have to be covered by contractor. Attorney advised that depending on how this plays I might want to put up a fence along property line :D. Like others in the forum have stated before "what is my intention?" I have to decide between leaving what part of road as is or get another contractor to spread topsoil, replant pine, and/or remove culverts. I guess I now have to wait for the licensed people to do their job...

Thanks to everyone for their help

Online mike_belben

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2018, 09:01:34 PM »
Timber trespass is the trees taken from you. 

Made whole is the cost to fix your emotional booboo over it.  Thats the haggle part of settling. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Ron Wenrich

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2018, 06:05:23 AM »
I don't think you need a timber survey of the whole property.  If I was writing the report, I would take a sample area along the disturbed area and run my valuations off of that.  Doing one on the whole property doesn't do much for your case.  You might have different timber types and size distribution differences in other portions of your property which has no effect on the disturbed portion. 

There doesn't seem to be a dispute in the location of the line.  I'd contact the surveyor the contractor used to see if there is one.  I've been on cases where two surveyors got into a battle about who was right on about an old stone wall and a 150 year old deed description.   The judge just moved on after about 15 minutes.

Your forester and surveyor will be expert witnesses.  I doubt the opposing attorney will contest the forester's valuation, unless it is unreasonable or not very professional.  I've refuted other forester's valuation due to their poor quality of work.  
Never under estimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Offline Don_Papenburg

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2018, 11:19:03 PM »
Just dumping topsoil on the road will not make that a productive property .  The gravel/rock road bed  and any clay that was packed to make the road ready for gravel . will have a hard pan or many pans  depending on the thickness and number of lifts used to build the road bed. 
All of that will make the tree roots grow slower ,water infiltration will be slower and runoff faster and harsher , meaning more erosion . It will be years before the productivity will return to normal .  
Frick saw mill  '58   820 John Deere power. Diamond T trucks

Offline John Mc

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2018, 11:53:23 PM »
Just dumping topsoil on the road will not make that a productive property .  The gravel/rock road bed  and any clay that was packed to make the road ready for gravel . will have a hard pan or many pans  depending on the thickness and number of lifts used to build the road bed.
All of that will make the tree roots grow slower ,water infiltration will be slower and runoff faster and harsher , meaning more erosion . It will be years before the productivity will return to normal .  
Yes, all that would need to be removed, and even then, it will be a while before the site is productive again. It's also likely that many of the remaining trees lining the build area may be compromised - unless they removed a wide swath on either side of the road already.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline Wudman

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2018, 01:09:11 PM »
First off.....what is the purpose of road construction?  If it is agricultural or timber harvest, no permit is required in Virginia as long as the watershed of the creeks that were crossed is less than 3000 acres (which is highly unlikely) or they are tidal streams. For timber harvest, notification must be made to the Virginia Department of Forestry within 3 days of the harvest commencing, not road building activity.  Since you border the James River, the Chesapeake Bay Act has jurisdiction if there is a water quality violation.  The Bay Act defers jurisdiction to the Virginia Department of Forestry under normal circumstances.  Yes, this is an issue.....Yes, I have seen it before.  I am actually going through one right now that is very similar.  The adjoining owner pushed a line for a fence on the wrong side of the property line.  Mistakes happen.  His operator got on the wrong side of the painted line when he turned a corner.  The saving grace for me, is that I am selling the timber on the parcel that I manage.  I requested compensation at fair market value for the trees pushed and that they seed the strip with a wildlife friendly seed mix (along with lime and fertilizer). 

If you have any use for the road, I would tend to leave it there.  A typical permanent creek crossing for me averages between $6,000 and $10,000.  I would have them gravel it to your satisfaction, so that it is there if future need arrives.  Seed it with a wildlife friendly seed mix (lime as needed to establish clovers and legumes).  Block it off if you don't want to use it.  It will still be there for future use.  Nature will reclaim it.  Request compensation for the timber damage.  One other caveat of Virginia law is that a forester cannot do an appraisal.  He must provide the timber volumes (and values) to a certified appraiser to legally do an "appraisal".  The real estate lobby is still pretty strong in the state and successful in keeping the forester's hands out of that pot.  Be cordial on the front end.  Stand your ground when needed.  I'm sure it is a shock to you that this could occur.  Try to settle to your satisfaction.   

Wudman

Offline John Mc

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2018, 01:55:02 PM »
@hinb58 , I do hope you'll let us know how this all works out.
If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as a nail.   - Abraham Maslow

Offline hturner12

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #30 on: November 05, 2018, 08:31:19 PM »
Excellent info from the gang.

Years ago i was very clearly in the right on a simple matter and was thrown out of court and threatened with a contempt charge.  Last year my friend did 6 months for a small thing no one ever does time for.  3 weeks ago a good friend of mine got 7.5 to 15 yrs for a non crime that wasnt even possible for him to commit with plenty of evidence to the contrary, all objected to in jury trial.  His lawyer was a wet noodle but it exhausted all money to have this slug sit at a table and keep quiet for a week of lies and hearsay skewering my friend.  Hed have been better off representing himself and saving the money to pay bills while incarcerated.  No attorney ever said 'let me tell you about my track record of losing these types of cases.'

The theme in all 3 cases is wrong attorney on one side against a friend of the judge representing the other side.  I have been in a room where two opposing client lawyers who were buddies made an agreement as to how it would play out.  It happens every day and this is my point.  


We are all saying get a great lawyer.  Thats easy advice to give but how does one begin to follow it?  Just call the most expensive one and pay until you run out?   The best attorneys dont need ambulance chaser billboards begging for new injury clients.. So how do you find them?


My neighbor was a bailiff.  It was one text message to him for my traffic, parking or rejection sticker ticket to get fixed.  The system takes care of its own.   You want an attorney who is inside that loop not outside.  


Court staff cannot give legal advice, but that doesnt mean you cant find that sympathetic staff member at the jurisdiction where your case will be heard, who IS WILLING to discreetly tell you which attorney HE or SHE would hire to represent themselves in a property dispute.  It can be the door security, the janitor, clerks or assistants.  Younger generations are much more conditioned to blab thanks to social media than their elder peers.  But either way they all know the water cooler details and will be able to give you the name of a winner if you can coax it out.  Most courts have a full time info line.. That person has worked for me a bunch in the past once i got them to loosen up.

 It doesnt hurt to ask who not to hire either and see if you can atleast cross a few names off as losers or crooks or whatever.  The days ive spent in court definitely showed much favor to certain litigators and disfavor to other.  That is a big big piece of the outcome of any case, the who ya know factor.   The personal relationships that arent allowed on the surface but exist everywhere.
Do not trust the website  Aveo(sp) the lawyer referral/ review site. We did for  a legal matter with wife. We are still repaying tge loan for the attorney plus her fine and probation  fee. Lady that was behind her on the docket no lawyer  got the  same deal wife got
Hugh
Ezbordwalk Jr

Offline Ron Scott

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Re: Contractor realized they built road on wrong property
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2018, 05:54:10 PM »
As stated you need the services of an attorney and a professional forester experienced in land and resource management case law.
~Ron


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