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Author Topic: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly  (Read 1789 times)

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Offline evjim

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Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« on: November 08, 2018, 03:02:22 AM »
I'm building a post and beam house. Much of my carpentry experience comes from a job building pole barns, so this has some influence from that. I decided on the piecemeal approach to assemble the frame as it can go up as I finish notching each part. I also recently read this is a common timber framing assembly method in Europe but I cannot find much information. The posts are 8x8s and 12ft tall. The center posts will be 18ft tall and support a ridge beam. The girts are all housed so that the exterior wall will sit flat on posts and girts.





The foundation is sonotube piers with a 28inch base at the bottom. The base is 4.5ft below grade. The soil is heavy clay and has cracked neighbor's foundations. The piers should hold up better to soil movement but we have also installed a foundation drain next to the piers that runs out to daylight and backfilled with a well draining gravel. I foolishly decided to fabricate the knife plates after the concrete was poured. And so they have to be welded to the rebar. It has been tedious with my tiny 80amp stick welder. The slab floor may be an earthen type of floor. It won't be finished for several months. I have not put in the lowest girt because I want to cut the concrete piers square so they look better.




I'd like advice on hanging the beams. They are 8x10s and came at 12ft 2in long. The center to center measurement of the post is only about 11ft 8in. All of the posts so far have a housing with a 1.5in deep seat. The original plan was to use Gusset plates. Then the beans can fairly easily slide in when the posts are up. I am wondering if there are any alternatives though. I saw knee braces can be added after


The wall will be sort of a Sip made on site, but only one layer of osb, not both sides. I really like the wrap and strap drawings I have seen on this forum. Osb would mount to the girts and posts. Then 4inchs of Eps foam. And last probably a dryvit stucco finish. There would be a tyvek layer before the Eps. All windows would flash under the foam.

I was thinking about mounting drywall first to the outside of the frame underneath the osb sheathing. If I use 12ft sheets, then no taping or cutting will be necessary except in the gables. But the weather can be pretty harsh and so I may just go straight to osb so that the drywall doesn't get destroyed before the osb goes up. Any ideas on how to finish the inside of an osb wall?

Offline fishfighter

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 05:10:02 PM »
To finish out the inside of OSB, first you need to make sure there is a vapor cloth or Plastic covering. Then you can just screw your sheet rock right to the OSB. Another way, you can screw 1"x2"'s, 16" on center. Screw your rock to this. Doing it this way gives you a area to run wiring in between.

Offline Don P

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 05:29:53 PM »
It might be worth looking into DensArmor Plus gypsum board.

It sounds like you have enough beam length to break them on top of the posts. That can be a tenon on the post tops or steel T plates to bolt everything together.

Offline Brad_bb

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2018, 11:39:14 PM »
Maybe you should show some pics of your connection methods.  I'm not clear if you are using traditional Timber Frame mortise and tenon joinery or plates and bolts/screws as is typical in Post and Beam.
Anything someone can design, I can sure figure out how to fix!
If I say it\\\\\\\'s going to take so long, multiply that by at least 3!

Offline evjim

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2018, 01:37:54 AM »


The joints are pocketed but do use metal fasteners. But I'd like to find a way to maybe do the beam to post joint a little bit more like a timber frame. But with posts already up, I am not sure how a normal mortise and tenon would work. The two posts would have to be spread out to fit the beam in. I was hoping there is some sort of beam to post joint that slides in from the side?

Here are the beam pockets so far. Plan is to slide the beam in from the side and use Gusset plates. But I could add a mortise to them. Maybe a mortise doesn't have to be centered on the post and it can be on an edge?


Another picture showing the girts



Offline evjim

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2018, 01:45:04 AM »
Fish fighter,  I like the idea of using 1x2 to offset drywall and have space for wiring. I was planning to run the romex or conduit exposed and have it look a bit industrial.

One advantage I think to putting up drywall on the outside of the frame facing in is that our posts are 12ft on center and so a 12ft sheet of drywall would need no cutting or taping. The girts are 4ft on center going up.

Don, I have looked into the dens element sheathing. It is a cool product but very pricey here. The local dealer gave me a price of about $30 a sheet. Where osb is $11 a sheet and 12ft drywall is $13 a sheet.

Would the dens board be a structural sheathing? Because I figure with osb I won't need knee braces anywhere that I have sheathing.

Offline evjim

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #6 on: November 11, 2018, 01:49:10 AM »
Some update pictures

Using a winch to lift the 18ft tall 8x8


Building at the end of today

Offline Don P

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #7 on: November 11, 2018, 08:44:16 AM »
From the Georgia Pacific specs;
Quote
DensArmor Plus Interior Panels are not intended for sheathing applications. For sheathing applications consult our

DensGlassR Sheathing or DensElement Barrier System brochure.
DensGlass is the yellow panels you see sheathing commercial buildings, it isn't a good finish "sheetrock" panel though.
I've used steel strapping to make X's for bracing in retrofit work before, hiding it behind the rock. That comes from Simpson in 300' rolls if I remember right. Similar to the X braced bays in a post frame building. OSB is going to perform better though IMO, it is better connected. One issue there is that the panel is unsupported in the field. The studs in normal frame construction keep the panel from buckling out of plane, that is where the field nailing schedule comes from. The steel in post frame creates that stiffness with the ribs. Diagonal board sheathing is another option.
Where I was going with the top plate beam idea is to set it on top of the posts not between them. Put the tenon on top of the posts, the mortise in the plate beam and set the beam on top of the post. Hidden on the exterior face of those, strap the post and beams together under the rock.

Offline evjim

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2018, 12:59:13 PM »
Cool. I like the steel strapping idea. And I was concerned that my girt spacing and flexibility might not be tight enough for osb to be as structural as I intended it to be.

So you are saying the dens glass interior surface is not the same as drywall? Could it be tapped and painted? What kind of cost per board have you seen? What is the advantage of it over osb?

Thanks


Offline Don P

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2018, 05:13:00 PM »
The densglass is made for sheathing for fire walls. I've only seen it in 4x8 sheets ~$20. untapered edges. Without backup I think any drywall is going to give you trouble at 4' unsupported spans. You could attach it to the girts and posts, x strap, then vertical boards at 2' centers or closer attached thru the rock to the girts and plate beam, then come back from the inside and screw the rock to the boards. If you temporarily brace the posts from the inside, get the roof on, and then do the walls a bay at a time complete with siding regular MR board should be good enough unless you get serious blowing rain. Looking at the site start on the upwind side. Winter is dry moisture.

Offline evjim

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2018, 04:41:56 PM »
Made a bit more progress on the frame. The ridge beam is up and 95% of the girts. Need to go buy a few more. The headers are ready to go up in the next day or two. And then we will put up the rafters. All of this rough sawn 2X material is pretty twisted. Not sure how we will hold the twist out of the rafters (2x8x14ft).





Here is a picture of how the beams turned out. In addition to the gusset plates with 3/8 lag screws, 10 inch timberlocks are used from the top. They are sitting on a 1.5inch deep shoulder. I think I will add knees later to the post beam joints not on exterior walls.



I opted to just order OSB at the moment for roof and walls. The weather resistant gypsum options weren't too available here. The plan is to sheath it in OSB. The weather is turning cold and snowy fast so I just need to get it enclosed. Strap it with flat metal X strapping avoiding where windows and doors will be.

From the inside on the walls I will cut 2x (not rough, actual 1.5x) stud material to fit between the girts (laid flat). And then hang 1/2 inch thick drywall inside. It should be almost the same thickness as the rough sawn 2X girts. So the girt will still be partially visible. Hoping toenailing those 2x4s into the girts and drywalling will stiffen the wall significantly.

On the outside I need to create a drainage plane before installing the EIFS. The options are:
1. Using a liquid weather barrier. Then apply the EPS foam with a troweled adhesive that has grooves in the trowel. Those grooves create verticle drainage channel. A spray foam adhesive can also be used applied in verticle lines. This is the most common modern way to do reliable EIFS. But all of those products cannot be used very effectively now that it is below freezing everyday.

2. Use Tyvek Stucco Wrap. It is some crinkled tyvek and the crinkles are vertically. You use it in combination with another layer of normal tyvek. I cannot believe this stuff actually work. The drainage plane is so thin and compressible. The advantage is the tyvek is applied with staples and then the foam with 4.5inch long fasteners with big plastic foam washers. It can be done in winter.

3. Can apply normal tyvek over the OSB and then vertical furring strips to create a drainage channel. The instal docs suggest a plastic furring strip at least 1/4in thick. I suppose wood would rot in there. So I dont think this would help stiffen the wall assembly much and still had to do the studwork inside the wall. Maybe I could put wood furring strips under the tyvek and wrap the tyvek bumping over it? A bit unconventional install of weather barrier.

4. Maybe screw the EIFS idea and apply the EPS foam right to the OSB and then side over it later once I can afford nice siding. It changes what layer the windows are flashed to. I was looking forward to the eifs stucco look with rough sawn trim pieces. Hoping it would look like a traditional timber and stucco building.

Offline evjim

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2018, 06:57:51 PM »
The rough sawn timbers have a great circle sawn pattern on them. But also a lot of loose splinters. What is the best way to remove the splinters but not sand it flat?

Thinking some sort of wire brush on the grinder but that might be too aggresive?


And would boiled linseed oil be an acceptable finish on the timbers? They are douglas fir and were kiln dried some. They already have some significant checking.

Thanks

Offline Don P

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2018, 08:16:02 PM »
Look up an Osborne brush, Schroeders log home supply used to carry them. It us like a wire brush cup wheel but has nylon bristles with sanding grit in them, it works good at cleaning and smoothing without removing the character, I've used them on hewn logs with good results. I had a machinist friend make a threaded stud that went into the brush and chucked up in my right angle drill which worked well, a grinder spins too fast and will burn.

You could rip treated lumber furring strips instead of the plastic ones if you choose that route.

Offline logman

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2018, 12:26:47 AM »
I used my 6" random orbit sander on these hemlock timbers mainly so I could see my layout lines.  I think they really looked nice, it didn't take any of the circle saw marks off but really cleaned them up.

 

 

 

    
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Online barbender

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2018, 12:57:57 AM »
Looking good, where in Montana are you?
Too many irons in the fire

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2018, 02:14:36 AM »
makita 9741 wheel sander works good to remove splinters and retain saw marks.  I used the standard 100 grit wheel

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2018, 09:25:23 PM »
Don, thanks for the tip on the Osborne. I found a similar nylon sanding brush at the tool store. It is effective but slow going. Might wait until it is shelled in to hit the important spots. The pressure treated furring idea is good. Could rip some pressure treated plywood.


Logman, that frame looks great. How long did it take to sand all the members? That is a whole lot of joinery. Hope I can learn that skill eventually.

Barbender, thanks. Near three forks. We have a view of the Bridgers from the peak of the lot... But not from the house.

Cosmo,  that looks like a very effective tool but probably out of the budget for a single project.


We put up a rafter today after lots of measuring and marking out. As they will all be exposed on the inside we are thinking of using only timberloks. Toe nailing will be a lot of visible fasteners and dings. The timberloks seem to be a code approved top plate to rafter connection to replace hurricane ties. We are doing it backwards by going from the rafter down into a header but that should be okay? And then the rafter is face mounted to the structural ridge beam. I could not find a ton of info on putting rafters on top of a ridge. So decided to go with this method. Also using a timberlok to secure it? We will block on top of the header between the rafters later. There is no overhang because the continuous rigid foam will wrap around. And then sheeting on top of the foam will overhang.


Do we need to oil the outside faces of all the lumber before we shell in? Peak temps are barely 30 degrees these days.

I'd always welcome a constructive criticism to do things better. Thanks for all the input.

Offline Don P

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2018, 10:21:34 PM »
That little brush gave you an idea of the finish the Osborne will leave but if you value your time get one, they are 4" dia and it goes a good bit faster... I did the same thing, that little one is somewhere in the barn.

The timberlocks are ok at the plate, check with the inspector if you have one. Up at the ridge I have my doubts. If you can get up on top of the ridge on a beveled cant strip it would be better. You can check their ESR for connection shear capacity, I suspect you'll be into a Simpson connector if you face mount. It's no different than any other joist sitting over a beam or flush to a beam, if you go on top block in between at each end. Holler if you need more I can probably find some details and code cites.

Years ago we built a kit log home outside of the Bozone backed up to the Bridgers. The main memory was my wifes truck tranny fluid bathing my windshield somewhere around Butte when we were inbound. I told her she put on my rose colored glasses :D. I had rejected 3 houses of logs a year earlier in SD for being too green, that set was at ~10% when we got to them out there a year or so later. It would have been more fun if they had been milled dry but we made it work. I worked another 2 sets of them near Duluth. I'd have to look at dates but they ran ~14%, the differences had more to do with local environment than time. I guess that's a roundabout way of saying you are in an area of harsh drying conditions, it is cold which helps moderate it, oiling will also help moderate surface checking, judgment call.

Edit;
Check out fig 20 in this publication, not quite the same but similar enough;
https://awc.org/pdf/codes-standards/publications/wcd/AWC-WCD4-PlankBeam-ViewOnly-0304.pdf
I prefer to not notch the upper end of the rafter but rather sit on a beveled ridge or cant strip but this is ok if you keep the notch as small as possible.

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2018, 11:27:48 PM »
I just sanded each timber before I did lay out and resanded to get the pencil marks off when cut.  Didn't take long.  If you look there are 2 of those pavilions.  I think they are the coolest frames I've cut yet.
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Offline evjim

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Re: Piecemeal post and beam frame assembly
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2018, 03:18:41 PM »
For the shear Calc at the ridge. The timberloks package says 260lb. The dead load is 2ft x 14ft x 10lb plus lived load 2ft x 12ft x 30psf equals 1000lbs, divide by two equals 500. So maybe two timberloks? Or a few nails with the timberlok? And a strap over top? We don't have an inspector unfortunately (and kind of nice)


In that pdf, do they only strap the two rafters together and not even down to the ridge beam? It would have been a good idea to bevel the ridge before putting it up but I think too late for that unfortunately. Unless we spend a day taking them down which wouldn't be impossible

That's a great story, sounds like you've built all over the place Don! I'll try and ask the sawmill what percent they were kiln died to


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