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Author Topic: Am I getting ripped off?  (Read 3089 times)

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Offline Nick585

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Am I getting ripped off?
« on: November 13, 2018, 08:54:07 PM »
I am a professional arborist but an amateur logger.  I am in the midst of my first Black Walnut log sale.  Nothing under 12 and nothing under 8ft length.  No crotch pieces and no metal.  He is offering me $8600 for 3800 bd ft.  All were individually scaled by this log buyer.  I asked him to see the scale sheet and just said No.  Is this normal?  Am I getting ripped off?  

Online Southside

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2018, 09:14:24 PM »
What species of logs are you talking about?  I am assuming Walnut given those numbers.  Would need a lot more information about the size of the logs, defects / quality, your location.  The scale sheet statement is off setting, but without the whole picture it is hard to tell.  Can you scale the logs yourself and come up with a volume?  Do you have a spec sheet for the grades?  Are these yard trees?
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Offline sawguy21

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2018, 09:30:32 PM »
You are not getting 'ripped off'. Lowballed maybe but you need to get an accurate assessmentt of what the wood is worth. You then have the option of countering, if no agreement is reached you walk away. Can you reach other potential buyers in your area to see what they might offer?
old age and treachery will always overcome youth and enthusiasm

Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2018, 09:39:59 PM »
Yes Black Walnut.  I modified my comment.  If by yard trees you mean wooded lots on private properties yes.    Some of these 36 plus logs are old trees from the Finger Lakes.But no metal, zero bad color and I personally metal detected every inch.  I am having trouble learning how to grade logs.  I am eager to learn and for information.  I feel that I am at the mercy of someone who can easily exploit my inexperience.  Is it normal for a buyer to refuse to show a scale sheet?
You are not getting 'ripped off'. Lowballed maybe but you need to get an accurate assessmentt of what the wood is worth. You then have the option of countering, if no agreement is reached you walk away. Can you reach other potential buyers in your area to see what they might offer?

You are not getting 'ripped off'. Lowballed maybe but you need to get an accurate assessmentt of what the wood is worth. You then have the option of countering, if no agreement is reached you walk away. Can you reach other potential buyers in your area to see what they might offer?

Yes lowballed is certainly more accurate.  How do I better assess what the wood is worth?  Does a state forester only appraise standing timber?


Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2018, 10:24:39 PM »
Post the best pictures you can of what youve got and guys here will toss out an opinion. 

This buyer.. Has he done any of the work or is he just making an offer on what you put on the landing?  Who pays the trucking and who loads the trucks?  3800bd ft in which scale?  Doyle?  

Paging @nativewolf 
Revelation 3:20

Online Southside

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2018, 10:25:56 PM »
@nativewolf has a lot of hands on knowledge when it comes to the walnut market, maybe he can chip in.  My yard tree question came up as a result of you stating you are an arborist, as in urban trees, ones removed from a back yard, yard grown walnut tends to have more sapwood and less heart wood in it impacting the value, and no matter what, they do have more metal, rocks, missing kids, etc in them than forest grown walnut.    
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Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 10:39:40 PM »
Id love to stuff my kid in a walnut tree some days 
Revelation 3:20

Offline nativewolf

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2018, 11:27:43 AM »
Kid stuffed walnut is the most valuable!  

Hmm, post pictures.  Walnut graders are very very finicky.  End grain and a picture of log length.  $2.5/bdft is about average for run of the mill stuff.   Some guys try to low ball me, even though they know me.  I shake my head, shake their hand, tell them better luck next time.  

Get multiple offers.  3600 bdft is a full truck load so that's a great amount, one truck and they'll be full which is just how they want to run.  I'd get 2-3.  Walnut pricing is moving back up.

I recently sold 100 trees at @4/ft standing but they were nice trees indeed.  

16" on the small end is the magic number you are aiming to hit.  That's a make or break kind of size for higher pricing and it has to be inside bark on the small end of the log.  

If you need some buyers I can try to rustle some up for you, you are a few miles from home for me but I think there are a couple up there we have talked with this spring.  

Don't be in a hurry.  The phone is your friend now, the only thing you can do is get better pricing by getting more people to see the logs.   

The Canadian mills are buying on international scale and will send a truck, sort of guessing game but they'd pay same $/ft I think and you might have more footage.  
Liking Walnut

Offline Chop Shop

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2018, 12:29:37 PM »
Put them on CraigsList for $15,000.   Make up a story about them being urban reclaimed and that they are priceless special trees that can live on for eternity since you saved them from certain death at the local dump.
Then explain how you are not trucking them, have no way to load them  etc.

Thats what all the folks in my area do!

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2018, 04:24:13 PM »
Not long ago i saw a $500 "tree" for sale.  Or i guess there was one under the poison ivy blanket it was wearing.  

$50 a rick buddy.  If you cut split deliver and stack. 
Revelation 3:20

Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2018, 08:45:30 PM »
Cant seem to upload to gallery.  Maybe I must be on a computer and not a tablet?  Pasted a link to an Imgur album I just created.  Here is just a handful of the logs in the pile.  What kind of grade am I looking at?


Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2018, 08:45:50 PM »
--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/--Photos MUST be in the Forestry Forum gallery!!!!!--/gallery/IQgDona[/url]

Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2018, 09:22:16 PM »






Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2018, 09:23:30 PM »






Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2018, 09:24:53 PM »






Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2018, 09:31:30 PM »
   I don't buy or sell logs and cannot say whether this is a good price or not. I would be concerned that he will not let you see the scale sheet. I don't see anything proprietary there. Maybe you just want to double check the math. My advice to anyone is do not deal with someone you do not trust or feel comfortable with. Good luck. 
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Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2018, 02:13:28 PM »
Post the best pictures you can of what youve got and guys here will toss out an opinion.

This buyer.. Has he done any of the work or is he just making an offer on what you put on the landing?  Who pays the trucking and who loads the trucks?  3800bd ft in which scale?  Doyle?  

Paging @nativewolf
Pictures posted.  Doyle.   Logs are on a landing.  Buyer picks up.

Offline maple flats

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2018, 04:47:13 PM »
Maybe I missed it, but when you label on as 8' or 10' or whatever, are they just that long? Most mills want 6-8" over to be certain they can trim the lumber to an even length. Also, I hope the diameters are on the small end.
I see a few with a considerable curve, that make pretty lumber but fewer board feet, thus it is scaled lower.
logging small time for years but just learning how,  2012 36 HP Mahindra tractor, 3point log arch, 8000# class excavator, lifts 2500# and sets logs on mill precisely where needed,  Peterson ATS upgraded to WPF mill, maple syrup a hobby that consumes my time. looking to learn blacksmithing.

Offline Nick585

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2018, 06:08:34 PM »
Maybe I missed it, but when you label on as 8' or 10' or whatever, are they just that long? Most mills want 6-8" over to be certain they can trim the lumber to an even length. Also, I hope the diameters are on the small end.
I see a few with a considerable curve, that make pretty lumber but fewer board feet, thus it is scaled lower.
Yes they are cut 8 over.  Diameters on small end.  How do you compensate for curve when scaling?  Is it a percentage of total board feet? Where can I learn these things?

Offline mike_belben

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Re: Am I getting ripped off?
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2018, 06:52:49 PM »
Some will knock it down a grade, some will "pull it back" ie either pay you for a shorter length or smaller diameter to account for the loss.  


When you are bucking trees with crook and sweep you really have to get your logs from between then by cutting the crook out or putting half on this log and half on that.  Sweep is a bummer.  Good for boat builders, bad for most else. If there is a crook i start measuring from it first and dont cut anything until i have every cut figured.  Which stinks when youve got it down to say 3 logs just barely.. Cut one and its got a big ant tube or something with no slack to try trimming for a cleaner face.  Oh well, all parta the game. 
Revelation 3:20


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