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Author Topic: Wide Mill Build  (Read 3952 times)

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Offline Chop Shop

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2018, 12:23:17 PM »
You cant fix that.

Its warped from the HEAT of welding all those cross members in.

Notice that your cross members are 6" and the rails are 8" and the members are offset to the top.  Thats what caused the smile upwards.  If they were centered with an inch on top and an inch on bottom it would have pulled evenly.

You cant stop the powers of heat.

  no big deal.  Just put new rail material on top if the rails and shim it so the rails are level.

Online charles mann

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2018, 12:35:54 PM »
I had a spare 2x6 20’ rec tubing left over. I put it on the frame, and yep, my laser level was correct, an 11/16 gap at center, tapering to 0 2.5” from 1 end, and 5.5” from the other end. 

Im thinking that my center support blocks settled ( i had just excavated some rock from the whole build area, to give me some extra clearance) and i started placing the 2x6 bunk beams at 1 end, working my way to the other end. Hind sight, i should have left the area alone, since it was within 1/16” of level over a 20’x16’ area, and i should have alternated the placement of the bunks, and as i added wt., install my support bolts as i went. 
Only reason i didnt install my support bolts was, i was withing the bubble on a 4’ water level. Granted, i was centered on 1 end, but the bubble moved to the far end on the capsule, yet staying within the indicator lines on the capsule. 
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Online charles mann

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2018, 09:01:48 PM »
Well, not sure if its 100% yet, only got 1 side warped back. Lost daylight but i set my laser level with a 3/4” mark from the original point and with the ends supported and the weight of my tractor pushing down in the middle, it worked so far. I lifted the loader off the frame. Will heat the other beam tomorrow and go from there.
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Online ljohnsaw

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2018, 10:33:27 PM »
Wow, that's a lot of cross members.  I used one cross member every 4 feet.  However, my bunks are moveable and can be placed just about anywhere.
John Sawicky

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Offline Don_Papenburg

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2018, 11:00:58 PM »
Flip your frame over , it will make the straightening  a lot easier ,  then weld across the short section of the tubes .  A  " HOT "wide bead above every other  bunk  ,  do this slow and take several breaks after it starts to pull back .  If you weld till it is straight  you will have to tip it upright after it cools and weld some on top.   If skipping every other one does not bring it back weld the other ones starting in the mid and moving out .  This is when you want to take it slow , or weld just a few and leave it till the next day or go to lunch and bs with some friends for a while  then go back and see what happened .    Also you can add another bead next to the first ones if you need more movement.  
  The heat from welding shrinks metal .  You only heated the top 3/4 of your tube .  Because you have so many bunks you did not get the rail tubes pulling in.    You can also weld down from the bunks as if there was a 8x2 bunk .  weld at the same speed and heat as you did on the top 
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Offline longtime lurker

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2018, 06:00:05 AM »
Flip your frame over , it will make the straightening  a lot easier ,  then weld across the short section of the tubes .  A  " HOT "wide bead above every other  bunk  ,  do this slow and take several breaks after it starts to pull back .  If you weld till it is straight  you will have to tip it upright after it cools and weld some on top.   If skipping every other one does not bring it back weld the other ones starting in the mid and moving out .  This is when you want to take it slow , or weld just a few and leave it till the next day or go to lunch and bs with some friends for a while  then go back and see what happened .    Also you can add another bead next to the first ones if you need more movement.  
  The heat from welding shrinks metal .  You only heated the top 3/4 of your tube .  Because you have so many bunks you did not get the rail tubes pulling in.    You can also weld down from the bunks as if there was a 8x2 bunk .  weld at the same speed and heat as you did on the top
This!!!
I was about to say lay some weld on the other side and she'll curve right back but Don beat me to it. Boilermaker 101.
The quickest way to make a million dollars with a sawmill is to start with two million.

Online charles mann

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2018, 11:05:40 AM »
I did flip it yesterday, leveled the 4 corners. Instead of welds, i used my light duty cutting rig with a rose bud and heated the tubing. I started with a frown and now its turned upside down. I have, as it sits, upside down, i have a 3/16” of sag, tapering off to 0.0” 2 bunks from the end in both direction, which is better than it was. 
The side that i dint heat last night, is level with the 4 corners with no loader arm load, and only 300# of crossties. Im thinking of blocking up the side that i worked on last, ripping a 2” wide cutoff of a 2x6, and welding it in as a gusset on the bunk side that is level, install all support bolts and level the frame again and see where i may need to apply heat to persuade the draw in the direction i cant get the support bolts to move the frame. 


As stated above, instead welds that i need to grind off, i used the rosebud. Thanks for the info. 

@longtime lurker 

@Don_Papenburg 
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Online charles mann

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2019, 05:23:12 PM »
Well, attempt 2 came out with less than 1/32” deviation. 
My neighbor had a metal frame barn/house put up and the builder left some 10” x 1/4” I-beam sawhorses. He said i could have the horses and all the scrap 1/4” sq tubing left over in exchange for a case of silver bullets. 

I placed the new 2” x 6” x 1/4” tubing on the horses, leveled fore/aft, shimmed the legs of the horses and tacked in 3 cross bunks, squared the frame, then tacked the main frame beams to the horses. I stitch welded 5 of the x-beams, taking 2 days to do that. Once those were welded in, i pulled a string line and to my liking, it was level, and still square. 
I started installing the remaining 6 x-beams 2 at a time, at opposing ends, working my way to the center. After the remaining 6 were tacked in, i started the stitch welding. 2 more days later, i was FINISHED!!! 
I pulled the string again and again, still level. I had to do some milling on the 2” x 2” x 3/8” angle to get my for some reason, misdrilled holes to line up. Iv got the track installed temporarily so i can start building the carriage, which will have to wait for 2 wks while im at work. I cant believe im saying this, but im looking forward to my upcoming surgery, so i can have another 2 wks off to keep trudding along. 
Once i get the frame off the horses when get back home, im going set the bed up, level it, check for tubing straightness once more after leveling on the feet, then start hammering the carriage out. Im only 2 months behind, but its better to be late than having to rebuild again. I definitely learned from my $1200 mistake. 
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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2019, 02:03:41 AM »
did a bit more on the build this past week. i got the carriage assembled and tacked together. chose not to weld anything up yet, bc i may have to mod a few things, trim some stuff and whatnot. 

I'm the build plans, it calls out for 1/2" flat plate with angles and such to build a box fender for the carriage rollers. i measured the rollers and knew i had some 4" drill pipe, so i checked to see how much clearance i would have if i used it, which i had plenty of room. i cut 2 pieces, split the 2 rounds in half and used some 1/4" c-perlin weld plate to make the outer fender skirt. i assembled the fenders and rollers and after install. i noticed the rollers were TIGHT. i gathered that i reared on the bolt/nut to much and backed off and they spun just fine, but the nut was too loose for my comfort. so off to tractor supply i go to get some shim washers ( 1 3/8" x 14 and 18 gauge with a 7/8" hole) and played with the stack up to get the roller to spin freely, yet have enough umph on the nuts, they wouldn't back off or have to jam or lock nut them. as of now, the carriage weighs around 500-600# but rolls extremely smooth, and hoping gets better with more wt. on them, since ea 1 is rated for 2000#. 




 


 

i messed up and used a section of 2x6 rec tubing and a 4" sq tubing. i wasn't thinking and was frustrated from the roller debacle. i fixed it the next morning by cutting another 2x6 rec tubing, which i can use for for an add-on section for the frame, to extend my cut length.



 


 


 


 





 


 

i needed to move the frame out of the way, so i could get the aux pwr cart out and accessible when it comes time to yard the eng out and fab up the eng mounts and location. i built the axle originally to move my conexes to the their current location to build my shop. i used 2 high lift jacks to raise the frame off the saw horses, lowered the frame down enough to get the axle onto the frame, roll it to the back and lifted the frame back up. i had a HECK of time with the jacks bc 1 wanted to go 1 direction, while the other wanted to go another direction. i finally wised up and lowered it back down, placed both jacks in between the same bunk section, used a motorcycle strap and ratcheted the 2 jacks, where they were pulling against ea other, then grabbed ahold of my miller for support and made the lift again, it went like butter. 
when i moved the previous frame build out from under the shop, i just used a chain and short chocked it to my tractor. big mistake, i couldn't turn without sliding the frame. so this time i took the 4x4 sq tubing, cut a 2" hole in it (instead of running in to town and buying another tongue mount), then tacked the tubing to the frame and used that as a temp tongue to drag the frame out. wasn't the best, could have been 2' longer for better turn radius, but it worked to get it out, then back it back under. 



 


 

 a couple pics of the pwr plant. I'm going to clean it up a lot more, prime and repaint it with cummins tan. 
was thinking of painting the mill kubota orange to match my tractor, but since there is already an orange mill out there, and jd green doesn't suit a bandsaw, i was thinking cummins tan. Thoughts of paint color???
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Online charles mann

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2019, 02:08:56 AM »
also, which direction, dependent upon location of bell housing and output shaft requirement, should i set the engine, radiator facing the direction of cut, or rear of eng facing direction of cut? i was thinking radiator to the rear and using the radiator fan to help blow the saw dust away from the intake filter and radiator veins, to possibly lesson the chances of clogging up the cooling veins from the dust, and to add in some protection, incase the band or drive belt, or even a chunk of wood becoming a flying hazard and hitting the radiator. again it all depends on where i will be able to mount the eng to the saw beam. 
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Offline Crusarius

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #30 on: January 27, 2019, 09:14:32 AM »
Looking good. Have you though about stabilizer jacks? they may interfere with your carriage.

I would lean towards minimum dust into the radiator.

Online charles mann

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #31 on: January 27, 2019, 11:33:40 AM »
Looking good. Have you though about stabilizer jacks? they may interfere with your carriage.

I would lean towards minimum dust into the radiator.
yes sir, stabe jacks have been thought of. and the interference with the carriage has been thought of too. granted im not going to make it mobile just yet, mostly bc the just the saw beam, w/o the band wheel on it, is 10' 6" wide. too wide to pull down the highway legally, w/o a permit. so for now, it will be stationary, and set where the those logs are in the background of the frame profile pic. i will pour a 12' x 30' slab, 6" thick later on, but for the time being, once its built and ready for operation, i will use excavated limestone, or crushed concrete for the mill to sit on till i decide to pour the slab. 
as for stabe jacks, i was thinking, that since the carriage will need to travel along the rail, conventional top/side handle jacks are out of the question, on the outside, and had thought about mounting them to the inside, but a greater chance of them being damaged when loading the logs could happen. i would use travel trailer scissor jacks, and build a cup out of 1/2" flat plate, that will slip over the frame beam in 4 location per side, and the same for the log bunks. but hey, that is a long ways down the road. probably this time next yr, i will start messing with a turn table build. that will lift the carriage up, clear of the rails, turn it 90°, then lower it down onto the log bunks, lock it down and be able to haul it. im just worried about the frame bouncing on these fine outstanding roads/highways we have, and bending the frame AGAIN. 
i think im going to copy the wm LT15 and lx 150 for the leveling feet, and remove them from the bottom of the frame, to inside the frame rails, yet still using the same # and size of bolts/nuts. 
after the frame bending mistake, i attempted to grind the welds off from around the nuts and after i think 6 or 8, i said forget it, and left them, went out and bought new nuts just so i could move forward. if i change my design and move the leveling bolts to the inside, i will have to grind the welds to ALL the nuts, so i have a relatively flat bottom on the frame and bunks, then take some 1/4" flat plate and drill out 33 1" plugs, and weld them into the holes from the leveling bolts, and strap the bottom with a section of 1/2" x 2" x 20' flat bar.
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Online charles mann

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2019, 03:14:56 AM »
been a bit since iv posted some pics. unfortunately, not a lot done over the past 2 months. 4 day out of 16 home isn't a lot of time to get much done. plus i tore a hole in the sidewall on a font tire, well, front for me, rear for them compact tractors, costing me $600. not sure what i hit, but the tire didn't like it and gave in. i was able to have 1 the first front tire, i stuck a t-post in, vulcanized, but not this 1. it tore a 8"x8" gash in it. boy was i mad. especially when i found out the tire was coming from chico, ca., just a 4hr drive north of where we are located currently.  

i finally got my drive axle and housing from the machine shop, $1200 (after a 25% discount for taking nearly 4 months) later. plus it cost me another $70 in seals bc whoever put the bearings and seals in, didn't understand (lightly instal the seals). I get hm, pick the saw beam, wheels, pulley and drive assy. up, not noticing at that moment, the seals were fully seated and dry bearings. I had to drive the seals out enough to get a heel bar on them to pry them out, bending them (possibly could be re-used if running just grease). Im not sure though if i want to run axle grease or gear/hub oil. after packing the bearings (2.5" id), and installing the assy, spinning them, there didn't seam to be as much grease as I'm used to seeing on wheel bearings. 

just the drive assy, no pulley or band wheel, weighs around 80#, a lot heavier than i anticipated
i welded some 4"x8"x1/2" angle for a mounting pad, still need to drill and slot the 12 bolt holes, notch out for the lat adjustment blocks, and drill/tap for the pitch bolts for shimming of the vertical axis of the band wheel. 

26" wheel with a 16" drive pulley 




 




 




 


I was able to, within the past 2 months, cut my carriage apart, AGAIN, to drill/tap and install the linear rails and blocks, plus get the 1.5" acme rods temp installed. my last time hm (left for work 8 days ago) for 4 days, i did get the rail block pad plug welded in, drilled and was able to install the blocks on the rail and attach the saw beam to the blocks, but broke a dang tap off in a block whole, trying to clean the threads, plus broke 2 snap on sockets, i was using as a tap wrench. that tap is harder than any drill bit i have, but them blocks, i think are harder than tap. 
i did come to the conclusion that, if THK would have, in their description of the mounting set up for the blocks i have, i had to use smaller (3/8") bolts for a front mount, i would have just saved the $470 on the flange blocks i bought, and used the blocks that came with the silver (L/H) rail, so i could used the M12 bolts i bought. 

This build is a dang custom fab NIGHTMARE. I'm glad I'm blading and going gray haired already (started during my flight training 6 yrs ago), that this build would have caused me to pull most of my hair out. but, its a challenge, and if it were easy, everybody, well, most people would build, instead of buy. plus, its the satisfaction of knowing it was built by me, and not an assembly line produced machine. 



 

when ordering my lifting mech supplies, i forgot to order 4 coupling, so i spent a day doing clean up and sitting around, bc i couldn't connect the top section to the acme rods.

so, this next time hm (fly hm next mon) I'm going to cut the 1.5" keyed shaft for the top connection of the acme rods, tack the thrust bearing plates to their mounting pads, plum them up, take 1 more measurement and temp install the pillow block bearings for the top connection, temp install the sprockets and chain, and place 15 80# bags of sack-crete on the saw beam, 2 bags on the idle side, 2 bag on the drive side and place the remaining bags along the beam, close to center of the beam, and see how many ft/lbs its going to take to lift the beam and keep in it motion. hopefully, i'll get a fairly close estimation on the size of RGB and motor i need to lift this monster. I'm gonna do an empty test, with just the beam, but before i put the acme rod in place, the wife and i were able to lift the beam with ease, even though it only weighed around 120#, it didn't feel like we were lifting 60# each. 
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Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2019, 02:42:55 PM »
Holy shhh that is a big rig! You'd fillet whales on that thing

Online charles mann

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2019, 03:13:48 PM »
Holy shhh that is a big rig! You'd fillet whales on that thing
Never thought about that, but you know, it might just be possible. Just gotta get a whale to swim into the gulf of mexico, catch it, transport it 5hrs inland and start filleting it. Guess i need to buy a bigger fishing rod. 
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Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2019, 03:26:22 PM »


(Image hidden from quote, click to view.)
 
Dunno, I'm looking at an easier solution than that in your display/avatar pic  :D :D. What size do they go up to in meat cutting bands  ;D


That pic in particular, is that your width? What kind of capacity are you expecting? What a monster
You could put a bi-metal blade on it and butterfly open heavy machinery for cross-sectional demos at schools and college labs etc... If you need any more good ideas for your mill just let me know  :D

Online charles mann

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2019, 04:10:40 PM »
@JoshNZ 
Max log width is 80”, height is unk yet, but should be 68”, unless i add 6” of acme rod to each side, then that’ll put me at 74”, with 2” of linear rail above the block at max height. As it sits now, my lowest cut will be 3/4”. 

I have 1 pecan log, no branches, just the round, a little over 60”, but the brach section, that im gonna mill to make a bench from where lightening blew out a section of the tree, is 72”. 
Iv got a couple more pecans, that the butt is over 48”, but where it limbs out, is close to 76” across. 
Same for a black walnut, brach section is right at 72”, no matter how i rotate it on the ground. 

I should have a throat of around 14”, or 7 8/8 slabs.   

Only thing i havent yet figured is, IF after installing the drive belt, factoring in the bend radius of the belt at an idler pulley, then around the drive pulley, i will have the max cut width and throat. 

Iv gotta get the carriage fully welded up first, weld the thrust bearing feet on, gusset them. Then i will be able to start mocking up the eng mount frame, put a pallet on the frame and throw on 1000# of mud to check deflection of the saw beam and measure how much “sag” the back of the engine mount frame drops, then figure out a counter weight system or as some have recommended, a garage door spring system, to relieve the stress off the vertical axis (top and bottom) of the bearing blocks. 

As for the meat cutting bands, im sure i could get a custom built band, same as the 25’ 2” bands that will be used for the wood. 
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Online charles mann

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #37 on: October 04, 2019, 04:12:41 PM »
I have been thinking. 
To reduce the length of drive belt, would moving the drive pulley to back side of the drive axle be more beneficial? Id have to send it back out to the machine shop to turn it down to move my band wheel closer to the bearing (extra benefit of less stress on the shaft) and machine a bushing for the drive pulley bushing to ride on since the axle is 2 3/8” and the pulley bushing is 2 1/2”. 
Id have to buy 2 more pulleys im using on the eng to get/keep my rpm down to the 750 fpm at the band wheel. 
It would also allow the of 1 actuator to tighten and engage both belts. Not sure if that is the best/smartest thing to do, having 2 loose belt on 2 separate spinning objects. 

Opinions? 
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Offline JoshNZ

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #38 on: October 04, 2019, 07:16:54 PM »
How would that reduce the length of your drive belt? 750Rpm i assume you mean?

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Re: Wide Mill Build
« Reply #39 on: October 05, 2019, 12:12:20 AM »
How would that reduce the length of your drive belt? 750Rpm i assume you mean?
i would have 1 belt going to a jackshaft and from that shaft pulley, to the drive pulley, say with a 6" gap between the jack pulley and drive, the belt would be much shorter than a belt spanning 60", then going back, plus wrapping around a 16" and 4.5" pulley and partially over another 4.5 flat pulley. i think all in all, the the belt required to run it as it is designed now is a 210" belt. plus, i would have a clean throat, not like the wm series, where the drive guard has that angle to it to allow for protection of the drive belt.
all in all, it may total up to the same length for both belts, but I'm wondering how much throat interference i will have if i leave it as is. leaving it, i may, just to get it going, and on the next version, change it, if it looks like its something worth messing with to change. 
the tk mills have squared off drive box/guards, by using a flat idler pulley, but iv been getting bad vibes from the local pwr xmsn guys about using the flat pulley to direct the belt more downward, than letting the belt run diagonally, as they say "how it was designed". they may be thinking I'm talking about running a non-cogged 3/5v banded belt. 
and yes, i meant rpm. thanks for the catch. fat finger typing while laying down. 
again, this is just brain storming. iv gotta first get the dang engine running. i lost all my fan blades somehow. i think over cleaner got on them and weakened them, and the i attempted to crank the eng last time, they broke at the hub. plus, now that i yarded a lot of the generator control wiring out and the generator head, i can't get the thing to crank. i SUCK at sparks. my late father was the sparky and i was the mech of the family. now that he is past, I'm gonna have to fumble through it. plus temps are cooling off, so my interest in working in the open is more than working in it when its 100+°.
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1891 Views
Last post March 25, 2018, 11:53:41 PM
by Darrel
xx
Someone to mill wide slabs

Started by CKWoodCutter on Sawmills and Milling

6 Replies
808 Views
Last post June 21, 2017, 05:36:39 PM
by Brad_S.
 


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