Sawing for profit

[Southside logger]

Brad - Basically he was sawing 125 BF / HR on a 50?  Is that correct?  Was there anything unusual that would cause production to be so low?  

[Brad_bb]

No.  Log diameters 14-28".  Honestly, I found it a bit hard to swallow.  I didn't know what his production would be before hand.  How is one supposed to know?  I think a BF basis should be established.  But he was adamant that his rate was his rate.  So I don't think he would have agree to a BF rate.  Consequently, I'm reticent to send any more work that way if I have time to do it myself.  Last year I was trying to get the sawing done quickly so I could get it drying quickly.  That was not a factor in the pricing though.  

[WV Sawmiller]

Brad,

   That sounds a little high to me too. You could almost buy the finished lumber for that around here. I'd have told him the cost was more than I had expected, I'd have paid for the work and if I had more work I'd suggest a bf rate. If he accepted fine, if not I'd find another sawyer. No ill will involved just simple economics. He knows the kind of logs you are going to be bringing and what his production should be. 

[moodnacreek]

Custom sawing by the board foot is an old tradition from the days of traditional saw logs. Problem is today you might get either shrubbery or giants to saw not to mention all the limbs and gravel jammed up in the cracks of logs cut 2 years ago or more.  I never quote until I see the wood and whip out the metal detector and then another person doesn't like me. 









 P

[WV Sawmiller]

    Good point. This is why I leave myself and out and tell my customers short, dirty, small logs and custom sawing will be by the hour. As long as both parties know which rate will be applied and agree in advance everything is cool.

   In the customer's defense, they, like most of us, are on a budget and need to know in advance a reasonable estimate of what their lumber is going to cost to produce. We know some logs produce more at a cheaper rate for us to saw - they don't know that. This is one reason repeat customers are so much easier to deal with - they now have confidence in the process.

  This is also one of the reasons I am so intrigued by the Per Log rate I mentioned earlier. The customer may not know in advance exactly how much lumber he will get but he sure knows what he is fixing to spend and doesn't get stuck with sticker shock like Brad describes. I guess I could work up a Per Log rate and offer that to nervous new customers. One of these days I may put a pen to paper and calculate such a rate.

[DPatton]

Brad,

   That sounds a little high to me too. You could almost buy the finished lumber for that around here. I'd have told him the cost was more than I had expected, I'd have paid for the work and if I had more work I'd suggest a bf rate. If he accepted fine, if not I'd find another sawyer. No ill will involved just simple economics. He knows the kind of logs you are going to be bringing and what his production should be.

I agree with WV. I also believe being up front and professional with the sawyer when you feel you are being overcharged. The old adage of “if you like my service please tell your friends, if there’s something you don’t like about my service please tell me” goes a long way here. 
Brads right that his per bf price seems high for someone operating that mill. One question I have is was the tailgunner in Brads situation included in that $100.00 per/hr price or was it added on top of the $100.00. That could make a substantial difference in the bf price. Also was there any travel, setup, or blade fees applied that brought that bf price up.
As a starting out portable sawyer I do not not bid a job without first seeing the customers site layout and logs. Pricing is agreed upon and documented before the mill is ever delivered to the site. I am more than willing to price my sawing on how the customer is most comfortable. By the log (Doyle scale), by the bf, or by the hour. 

It’s important to understand your customer, their site situation, and what they are wanting out of the logs beforehand. All of those rates are adjusted based on observation of the site, logs, and what the customer wants for a final product. 

The customer is always responsible to provide tailing unless prior arraignments are made. Tailing myself is a real production killer and your per log or bf cost can double. I am always very clear with the customer about this. If your cutting wide slabs or larger dimension stuff you will need additional hands helping with the tailing.

[PAmizerman]

Brad

Those numbers don't seem to add up.
I would not be going back.
I generally saw around 100-125 feet an hour when sawing 4/4 by myself. 
He should have been doing much better sawing 10/4 with a tailgunner.

[PAmizerman]

I never saw by the scaled logs for price.
It's either hourly or by the bf.

[Tom the Sawyer]

I would never, ever saw logs by scale - especially Doyle.  Doyle shorts smaller logs, which would come out of your pocket.  If you must use a scale, the International 1/8" Scale would be the closest but, if you are sawing thicker than 4/4, it'll still be short of actual production ( on average).

[terrifictimbersllc]

I only saw hourly. But I think about switching more and more. Especially if I were to get a new mill.

One instance where sawing by scale would make more sense to me is when sawing logs through and through into natural edge slabs.  The measurement is easy and standard, whereas measuring the slabs is not.  If I charged by bf I would not necessarily use the same bf rate for natural edge slabbing as for other sawing, probably less.  Often it is 2-1/8" slabs.

[WV Sawmiller]

   I'll repeat my earlier comment "All methods of billing are fair as long as both parties understand the rates and agree before sawing starts."

    The sawyer just needs to determine a charging method and apply a rate that is profitable to his operation. You also need to be flexible and often have multiple rates for different circumstances where a standard rate doesn't work profitably. The risk is if you charge by scale and at the end of the sawing job the customer compares to actual yield and finds he has been significantly shorted, in his opinion. In that case he is going to be angry and be sure he will tell others. 

   Sort of like Brad paying by the hour and finding at the end of the job he paid a much higher rate than he had been expecting. Now I doubt Brad is going around telling folks the sawyer ripped him off but I bet he is telling anyone who asks that he was very expensive for the work he did. 

   Of course if we saw by the bf and the job goes super well, as happens once in a while, and we make a decent payday the customer may still decide we are overcharging when he tabulates an hourly rate.  You just can't please everyone so just be sure at the end of the day you are comfortable in your own mind with what you did.

[DPatton]

Weather pricing by scaled log, by the bf, or by the hour, it is simply a way for me to offer the customer a pricing method they understand and are comfortable with.

Since I’m new to this business I don’t have a strong established repeat clientele that understands how the whole process works. Some are just more comfortable making the deal if they know exactly what it’s going to cost up front. An hourly rate doesn’t provide the customer that safety net they are looking for. Don’t y’all think Brad now wishes he would have had a by the log or by the bf price instead of by the hour? Yes there are some instances where by the hour is the only way I will saw. But if you can’t offer the client something they are comfortable with to begin with you have no client.

I don’t have a set fixed rate for any one of those individual pricing categories, but more of a sliding scale depending on the actual logs, the setup required, and the end product the customer is looking to get. When your portable each job is different so why price them all the same?

[Percy]

Didnt read the whole thread...sorry...Alot of customers are savy...as in when asking me  to cut a big pile of logs on recovery(bdft) and I refused, the hourly log pile shrunk to half its original size. Point being, cutting on recovery encourages the customer to bring just about everything as its no skin off their nose if you dont get anything out of the big limbs they include. Its smart...

[WV Sawmiller]

   Good point. I have done site surveys and told potential customers "I can mill this batch by the bf but those would have to be milled at an hourly rate" then you see what Percy says and they weed out the small stuff as suddenly less important.

[Magicman]

I saw logs by the BF, junk by the hour.  Limbs ain't logs. 

[derhntr]

I only saw by the hour as I mostly saw mobile, hourly rate seems to make the most sense for my operation. I get mostly storm damaged trees and yard trees. I had to start a minimum sawing fee to weed out the 1-3 short log jobs. Seems like most jobs the owners want to talk a lot or ask questions about the mill. Seems like I get better help tailgunning when I am on the clock.  

[Westcoastct]

Depending on how many logs the average I’m charging is $0.70 per bdft for yard sawing customers log but only because of a few factors. Yard storage space, use of my equipment to unload load logs, use of equipment to move logs to sawmill, use of equipment to load finished products upon pick up. 

If it’s a special piece one of type deal I charge $120 /hr that rate covers a sawyer, off bearer and sawmill. I have adding up all cost involved comes out at this rate. When you start factoring in insurance, time spent doing maintenance to ensure your mill is cutting accurately so they get a premium product and so on. When I go to a mobile job my rate is $0,50 for 1.5” and bigger and 0.60 for 1.5 and under. Any requirements for my equipment is build out by the hour and mobilization costs to and from site. There are now few of us doing it in the area and as it is my full time business I aim to make it as profitable as possible while still making a product for the customer that is less money then the store and a better quality then general box store lumber. I have also made my price points based on local sawmills and equipment owner in my area. I don’t check logs for metal but outline to my customers they are replacing blades if any foreign object is hit In their logs. Have only ever had one customer try to dispute this. 

If you cut a nice true and straight board you can demand higher amounts. It’s always wise to not be the cheapest price in town and also not the highest price. Find a middle ground that makes you feel like the work your doing is worth while and rewarding. But find where your quality is proven to a customer so they feel like they are doing something worth while. 

Best of luck

[WV Sawmiller]

Westcoast,

   Your cost of living is much higher out there than we have here on the east coast and many of us could never get those prices for our work. Then again, you'd probably go bankrupt charging what we do because you have other expenses we do not have. You make a good point about not being the most or least expensive in the area. Continued success and good luck to you.

[Westcoastct]

You bet, VW. I know prices vary easy to west, I wasn’t sure of the location of the original poster but just thought I would add my side. Not to mention I’m up in Canada on the Westcoast. I have compared my pricing to other similar businesses that are in Ontario and we are very close. However with the exchange rate I’m sure my $120 works out to about $60 . 

There’s a guy not to far away from charging $250 per hour with a 2 hour minimum for an LT40. I wish I could charge that but I also want to keep my phone ringing. I’m booking months out in advance and can barely keep up. It’s actually one of the reasons I did up my price about 8 months ago. I’m getting to the point that I’m to busy and need to hire a sawyer to run the mill while I go look at jobs and such. This was the direction I intended on going I just hadn’t thought it would happen In 3 years time.

A lot of our local old time sawyers have called it quits and sold their mills, so we have a void in our market that I’m trying to fill and build a small portable and custom milling business. It still has its challenges up here tho.

[welderskelter]

I want to thank everybody for their info. It will be very helpful. I am trying to post some pics in my profile of me sawing a red oak. Thanks again.