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Author Topic: Cedar value  (Read 914 times)

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Offline Tee

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Cedar value
« on: December 08, 2018, 08:26:16 PM »
What would cedars big enough to make a square 6" 16' long be worth?
The person wants 24-30 of them and will be cutting them down and handing them.
Area is the western tip of Virginia.
Thanks for input and let me know if any other info is helpful.

Offline Southside logger

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2018, 08:30:33 PM »
Is the customer supplying the logs for you to saw?  Cedar can be tricky when it comes to timbers as it seems just about the time you almost get to the target size they have a "surprise" factor that reveals itself. 
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Offline Tee

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2018, 08:47:15 PM »
The trees are mine and the person who wants them can mill them.

Offline Southside logger

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2018, 09:29:57 PM »
Ok - gotcha.  If they are straight and sound, around here top dollar would be $150 / MBF stumpage rate.   
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Online LeeB

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2018, 06:25:33 AM »
It takes a mighty nice cedar to get a 16' x 6" beam. 9" +/- small end.  
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Offline Cedarman

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2018, 08:00:38 AM »
He will be picking some of the nicest straightest trees in your woods.  What will be left.  How much damage just to get those trees out?  Will he pay for the rest of the tree to 4"?
I would think 150/thousand would be for woods run trees of all sizes and quality.  Here it is about 125/thousand standing cedar.  But can vary from 100 to 250 depending on the woods.
This is measure on the cedar scale.
A 16' log should have 2 measurements.  One at small end and one at middle.  No cedar logger in his right mind would sell 16' when they could get more for 2 @  8'.  But they would be happy to buy them at 16' and measure the small end only.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline Tee

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2018, 09:37:54 AM »
Thanks for the input. A little more info would be I'd be able to chose and most are around wood line so other damage would be minimal. And some could stand to be gone from a few places.  I just bought the place and a neighbor who leases the place is the one who wants the trees for post for a hay barn.
He offered 20-25 dollars a tree. I see you can get treated post that size for 45ish. I do know there would be a good bit of boards sawn off getting to the 6x6.

Offline moodnacreek

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2018, 10:26:08 AM »
Sounds like the 'profit' would be in the side boards. Problem is all the edging and end trimming different length because of the taper in 16 footers. And then the stickering of the side boards [of different lengths] but those cedar boards are very handy.

Offline GAB

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2018, 01:10:16 PM »
He offered 20-25 dollars a tree. 
According to the Int 1/4 log scale a 9" dia top 16' long is 50 bdft of lumber.
If he is doing all the work of cutting, getting them out, hauling them to his place etc., then I fell his offer is reasonable for 9" diameter tops.  A 12" diameter top, using the same scale, has 95 bdft of lumber therefore you would be getting roughly half as much revenue for that tree.
This means that as the small end diameter increases the offer would be less on a per bdft basis.
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Offline Southside logger

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2018, 03:32:09 PM »
One thing to consider in this example is the location the trees are growing.  From the additional information it sounds like these are, or were, field edge trees, which means a couple things when it comes to cedar.  Odds of old metal in them goes up significantly, and they are going to have a lot more and larger knots, ant pockets, etc, so that impacts the value of them as a commodity.  In my opinion that is a reasonable deal you have been offered.  Maybe he could offer you some side lumber in the event some of the trees are significantly larger, then everybody wins.  
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Offline Magicman

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2018, 03:49:05 PM »
I assume that we are speaking of ERC?

With ERC, every tree/log, even with a 10" top, will not make a wain free 6" X 6" X 16' beam/timber.  So what happens to those trees that are felled that did not make the grade?
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Offline Don P

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2018, 08:21:54 PM »
A 16' ERC 6x6 barn post...  It is very decay resistant, which is good but it is a weaker wood that doesn't grow defect free. I think I'd be leaving that 10" pole relatively intact and just skimming some flats.

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2018, 10:26:15 PM »
I sure am grateful for our cedar here in the PNW after reading this thread!    Our WRC goes for 1000-1500 a thousand!   With 3-4 diameter logs being normal!

I just brought in two 30 footers that were 32" and 36" on the small ends!

Offline WV Sawmiller

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2018, 11:22:33 PM »
   How good a neighbor is he? Does he have equipment or services you will need in the future? Do you have a use or market for the side lumber?

   I might just give them to a real good neighbor or I might tell him he could have them for the side lumber returned to me. 

   Some things in life are worth way more than cash money in hand right now.
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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2018, 12:11:25 AM »
  How good a neighbor is he? Does he have equipment or services you will need in the future? Do you have a use or market for the side lumber?

   I might just give them to a real good neighbor or I might tell him he could have them for the side lumber returned to me.

   Some things in life are worth way more than cash money in hand right now.
^^ This
Like are the trees of any real value to you as they stand? Would someone else come in and harvest them for more $$? Or do you want to harvest them yourself and sell the product, in which case you can figure out what they are worth to you. 
But because we aren't talking any huge value, you can either take his offer (which isn't insultingly low), and comes to ~$750? Or do a deal where you gives you back some product. Give him a few more trees in case there are some rejects for poles, that would still make good fence posts or useful boards. 
Barter deals can work out good as long as you are both happy with the outcome. 
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Offline Cedarman

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2018, 07:49:39 AM »
A perfectly round cylinder 8.6" diameter will saw a wane free 6x6. Euclid says so. A 9" will saw a wane free post in most cases.  A little bark on a corner here and there and a little ingrown if there are big knots is not going to cause a problem in compression strength.  Cedar does very well as posts for building and the base will be all red so will last 50 years or more in the ground.  Cedar is not strong in bending as it is a brittle wood and snaps when put in a bend.
If you have a tree 9" at small end at 16', you should have at least a  7" at 25' and 5" at 33'.  So a tree big enough to get your 6x6 will have somewhere between 75 and 81 board feet on cedar scale.  If 10" at 16', then will have about 103' in it. This is for the entire tree. Side lumber may be good one face as side lumber usually has unsound knots and ingrown bark.  So would be good for paneling, but not high value for boxes and cedar chests.  The price seems fair if he will accept the risk that some trees may be bad with heart rot.  If you are taking the risk, up to you to decide what is fair.
Have any trees been cut to check for quality?
What will be left in the woods?  Would it damage the value if you had a cedar sale to get rid of the rest of the cedar?  What is your management plan for the woods?  Figure out the big picture and see if this fits the long term plan.
I am in the pink when sawing cedar.

Offline Don P

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2018, 11:17:13 AM »
Quote
A little bark on a corner here and there and a little ingrown if there are big knots is not going to cause a problem in compression strength.  Cedar does very well as posts for building and the base will be all red so will last 50 years or more in the ground.  Cedar is not strong in bending as it is a brittle wood and snaps when put in a bend.
This is outside the original question but when do we stay on topic, and I started it :D.
We're going from Euclid to Euler. As a column gets taller and more slender buckling rather than compression becomes the controlling factor. Although in pure compression ERC is good for about 250 psi, when the post is a 6x6x16' tall at its stiffness it loses 50% of its load carrying capacity due to buckling. If it is sided and the wind is blowing that is called a combined load or a beam-column, there is the compression load from above and a bending load from the side, the big knot really comes into play. The rule of thumb for just thinking about compression is 1" of thickness for every foot of height, Euler stays home, after that he plays an ever increasing role as the column becomes more slender. I did not just say to make the posts 16x16, simply that the 6x6 posts are half as strong as one might initially think, if nice ones. At 8x8x16', at this stiffness, slenderness eats up 25% of compression capacity.

Offline Kwill

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2018, 07:57:56 PM »
Is a true 2x6x12 cedar stronger than a store bought pine 2x6x12 which is actually a 1 1\2 x 5 1\2 x12?
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Offline Don P

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #18 on: December 11, 2018, 08:53:13 PM »
ERC doesn't have published design values, stiffness is similar to northern white, which is published. MOR of ERC is a good bit higher than NWC in the range of eastern white pine. The SYPines have about half again higher MOR's which relates to bending strength.

So doing some comparisons based on dead reckoning for ERC... this isn't gospel by any stretch
My guesstimate is your #2 full 2x6x12 cedar is overstressed at about 400 lbs and deflects about 5/8" as say a joist or rafter uniformly loaded.
A SYP #2 nominal 2x6x12 is good to a little over 500 lbs with around 9/16" deflection.
Just out of curiosity, full dimension southern pine - 800 pounds at 9/16" deflection

The grade is another thing to watch there, it is harder to get as high a grade in cedar. As a post I like cedar, it is very rot resistant, keep the dimension up if it gets tall. As 2x framing its a real push, there are better alternatives. As siding, paneling, etc, again it shines.



Offline Tee

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Re: Cedar value
« Reply #19 on: December 11, 2018, 08:54:00 PM »
That's a lot of info and things to consider. I really do appreciate all of the time spent on replies.
Would I even want to start a thread somewhere about one of the barns on the property that's supposed to be wormy chestnut?


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